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Jo Jo

The Defender will be the next Tie Advanced

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Well not quite that bad, but I believe the Defender will soon be completely replaced in lists by Autothrusting (sounds dirty) Interceptors. Right now running interceptors is kind of a risky proposition. Turrets are everywhere, and turreted ships like the Outrider can hit pretty hard. Unless his name is Soontir, good luck keeping an interceptor alive. The Defender has that great 3 shields to protect against that 3 blank defense roll that we have all done. But soon I think they will basically become obsolete.

 

For the price of a PS 1 Delta you can run a Royal Guard Pilot with PTL, ATs, and a HU.

 

With the interceptor you gain 5 PS and way more maneuverability without a huge loss in defense. The Delta flies like a bus with a missing wheel. The RGP flies like a Formula 1 race car. If you can't arc-dodge, you can always turtle up with the RGP and focus + evade. That's at minimum two guaranteed evades in the phase. The Defender can't do that. It just has to take what's coming on the chin and hope the shields are still up.

 

Don't get me wrong, the Defender is still a strong ship and in a 1 on 1 situation its boss. I don't advocate a buff or anything until we see them completely disappear in the meta like the Advanced. However, I just fear that's exactly what's going to happen. You are already starting to see them not showing up much in tourney results. 

Edited by Jo Jo

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You are already starting to see them not showing up much in tourney results.

They've never really showed up in tourney results. But I don't think auto thrusters will change much for the Defender.

It still has 3 shields, 3 hull and 3 evade. It can carry a cannon, and has a white k-turn. There's little that it offers that an Interceptor with AT will bring to the table.

Edited by VanorDM

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Hothie faced Vessory in the final round of flight one at worlds.

I was thinking I should check the Worlds and other tournament reports to see how often the Defender does show up.

Myself I have a list with Rexler, w/HLC and 3 Black squad ties with Predator that I rather like.

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I think these kinds of predictions are a bit premature. We really don't know what the new meta will be when wave 6 hits. For all we know one of the new cannons on a defender may eat the wave 6 meta alive.

 

But are they going to be better than the HLC? I doubt it.

 

The Defender is arguably best HLC platform in the game but it also takes up at minimum over a 1/3 of the points in your list. I love the Defender, but I'm going to be hard pressed to field it any more when I can throw in a couple cheap interceptors w/ ATs that I know won't get blown up when sneezed at.

 

I just went 2-2 in a tourney with a Vessery HLC /Kenkirk loaded combo. It performed decently, but I kept wishing I had a few more bodies in there. Especially when I ran into a list with at least 4 ships.

Edited by Jo Jo

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I made a list for my end of the empire scenario and the defenders just ate up points.

 

I was going to buy a third but i easily filled up 50 points a piece on them

 

Sounds excessive i know but they are 'loaded for bear'  and going up against three ewings in a 'swarm tactics' chain in the scenario.

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Hothie faced Vessory in the final round of flight one at worlds.

I was thinking I should check the Worlds and other tournament reports to see how often the Defender does show up.

Myself I have a list with Rexler, w/HLC and 3 Black squad ties with Predator that I rather like.

 

 

Hothie actually faced 2 Vessory squads. And it looks like every Defender pilot had a showing. 

 

 

I think these kinds of predictions are a bit premature. We really don't know what the new meta will be when wave 6 hits. For all we know one of the new cannons on a defender may eat the wave 6 meta alive.

 

But are they going to be better than the HLC? I doubt it.

 

The Defender is arguably best HLC platform in the game but it also takes up at minimum over a 1/3 of the points in your list. I love the Defender, but I'm going to be hard pressed to field it any more when I can throw in a couple cheap interceptors w/ ATs that I know won't get blown up when sneezed at.

 

 

They will likely be cheaper. That will be the big deciding factor.

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people will just run B-Wings instead.

How do you get B-Wings in an imperial list?

I mean I get it, if you want HLC's the B-Wing is a great option, but a lot of people build lists based on faction, and as such the B-Wing isn't always an option.

 

They will likely be cheaper. That will be the big deciding factor.

There's also a question of what kind of synergy the offer. They may not be better damage than a HLC, but they may offer something else that makes up for the lack of damage.

Edited by VanorDM

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Defenders have always been garbage, and always will be garbage.  I don't care if the cannon is a miracle cannon, people will just run B-Wings instead.  

 

I've actually found them (especially Vessery) to be quite amazing. I've wiped out entire swarms with one Defender. Not to mention that a Defender flat out murders B-Wings.

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I think these kinds of predictions are a bit premature. We really don't know what the new meta will be when wave 6 hits. For all we know one of the new cannons on a defender may eat the wave 6 meta alive.

 

But are they going to be better than the HLC? I doubt it.

 

The Defender is arguably best HLC platform in the game but it also takes up at minimum over a 1/3 of the points in your list. I love the Defender, but I'm going to be hard pressed to field it any more when I can throw in a couple cheap interceptors w/ ATs that I know won't get blown up when sneezed at.

 

I just went 2-2 in a tourney with a Vessery HLC /Kenkirk loaded combo. It performed decently, but I kept wishing I had a few more bodies in there. Especially when I ran into a list with at least 4 ships.

Fly Jonus brothers against a Decimator. It's not really a fair fight.

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Defenders have always been garbage, and always will be garbage.  I don't care if the cannon is a miracle cannon, people will just run B-Wings instead.  

 

I've actually found them (especially Vessery) to be quite amazing. I've wiped out entire swarms with one Defender. Not to mention that a Defender flat out murders B-Wings.

 

This.

 

B-Wings may be tanky, but their low agility makes them easy targets.

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Hothie faced Vessory in the final round of flight one at worlds.

I was thinking I should check the Worlds and other tournament reports to see how often the Defender does show up.

Myself I have a list with Rexler, w/HLC and 3 Black squad ties with Predator that I rather like.

 

 

Hothie actually faced 2 Vessory squads. And it looks like every Defender pilot had a showing. 

 

This reminds me that I need to finish my Worlds 2014 scripts done tonight to parse the lists, with weighted averages etc. It should be done tonight, although you can see Sozin's website for some details in the meantime.

 

Defender's represented about 4% of all points spent, which is only slightly below average. However their overall placement in the tournament was very poor. None of them made it into the Top 32.

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Defenders have always been garbage, and always will be garbage.  I don't care if the cannon is a miracle cannon, people will just run B-Wings instead.  

 

I've actually found them (especially Vessery) to be quite amazing. I've wiped out entire swarms with one Defender. Not to mention that a Defender flat out murders B-Wings.

 

Yep, specially an HLC defender with PS1 to force bumps and then K-turn into range 3. 

 

Rexlar ability is overrated imho. Vessery is probably the most solid option, but **** those extra 5 points...

 

 

 

Defenders have always been garbage, and always will be garbage.  I don't care if the cannon is a miracle cannon, people will just run B-Wings instead.  

 

I've actually found them (especially Vessery) to be quite amazing. I've wiped out entire swarms with one Defender. Not to mention that a Defender flat out murders B-Wings.

 

This.

 

B-Wings may be tanky, but their low agility makes them easy targets.

 

It's their dial. They are bruiser ships that want to be at range 1. Defenders have an easy time gaining distance against them and making them dizzy.

 

You shoot one turn (into range 3 if everything goes as planned), you then move forward to a position where he can't 2 Kturn, and would bump you if he moves 1. Next turn you K-turn and bam, if he kturns you will be at range 3. With an HLC plus action the defender has a good time shooting at the Bwing.

 

Xwing in the other hand, are better against Defenders, because if both kturn, they will be out of range.

Edited by DreadStar

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I think these kinds of predictions are a bit premature. We really don't know what the new meta will be when wave 6 hits. For all we know one of the new cannons on a defender may eat the wave 6 meta alive.

 

But are they going to be better than the HLC? I doubt it.

 

The Defender is arguably best HLC platform in the game but it also takes up at minimum over a 1/3 of the points in your list. I love the Defender, but I'm going to be hard pressed to field it any more when I can throw in a couple cheap interceptors w/ ATs that I know won't get blown up when sneezed at.

 

I just went 2-2 in a tourney with a Vessery HLC /Kenkirk loaded combo. It performed decently, but I kept wishing I had a few more bodies in there. Especially when I ran into a list with at least 4 ships.

Fly Jonus brothers against a Decimator. It's not really a fair fight.

 

Indeed. Problem is dealing with the phantom is there is one of course.

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I think these kinds of predictions are a bit premature. We really don't know what the new meta will be when wave 6 hits. For all we know one of the new cannons on a defender may eat the wave 6 meta alive.

 

But are they going to be better than the HLC? I doubt it.

 

The Defender is arguably best HLC platform in the game but it also takes up at minimum over a 1/3 of the points in your list. I love the Defender, but I'm going to be hard pressed to field it any more when I can throw in a couple cheap interceptors w/ ATs that I know won't get blown up when sneezed at.

 

I just went 2-2 in a tourney with a Vessery HLC /Kenkirk loaded combo. It performed decently, but I kept wishing I had a few more bodies in there. Especially when I ran into a list with at least 4 ships.

 

I think part of your list problem wasn't so much the Defender as the lack of guns on the board. You had a 3-dice attacker paired with 4-dice attacker. In order to run a two-ship list, you really need to be able to plan out how you're going to arc-dodge while still getting attacks on defenders, along with managing Phantoms. The Rebels are able to pull the trick through a combination of Han's turret and Corran's double-tap. It's the equivalent of three attacks every other round, and they're both high-enough PS to be effective Phantom hunters. Kenkirk and Vessery don't have that strength.

 

I love the Defender, especially in our new super-platter turret ship meta. Rexlar in particular excels against ships with 0-1 agility dice and a lot of hull.

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Hothie faced Vessory in the final round of flight one at worlds.

I was thinking I should check the Worlds and other tournament reports to see how often the Defender does show up.

Myself I have a list with Rexler, w/HLC and 3 Black squad ties with Predator that I rather like.

 

 

Hothie actually faced 2 Vessory squads. And it looks like every Defender pilot had a showing. 

 

This reminds me that I need to finish my Worlds 2014 scripts done tonight to parse the lists, with weighted averages etc. It should be done tonight, although you can see Sozin's website for some details in the meantime.

 

Defender's represented about 4% of all points spent, which is only slightly below average. However their overall placement in the tournament was very poor. None of them made it into the Top 32.

 

 

Out of the 200+ squads, saying anything that didn't make the cut had a poor showing is not the full story. There were a lot of very unique squads that missed the cut because of tie breakers, which can randomly screw people. The 4-2's should all be equally considered good showings. Since Hothie made it in with a 4-2 record, the second Vessory squad he faced likely ended up 3-2, barring him being paired up or down. That is fairly reasonable showing. 

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I really am trying hard to make lists with defenders, but they are just too expensive in points. You want at least 3 very solid ships in a list while playing small ships. And they just dont fit in. You can't take them with other squads, they just take an out of proportion share of points.

You can't play a named pilot with 2 generic for the defender because you already run low on points...

Also what's really garbage is Rexlers ability. There is just no way to give him a second action without stressing him or keeping him in a tight formation... It's totally worthless i was abke to trigger it next to never... And 37 points for that. No thanks.

I want to like the ship, really, but the best lists i can think of are 3 with ion cannons or Prockets, or 2 with HLC together with Jonus.

Edited by ForceM

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I think these kinds of predictions are a bit premature. We really don't know what the new meta will be when wave 6 hits. For all we know one of the new cannons on a defender may eat the wave 6 meta alive.

 

But are they going to be better than the HLC? I doubt it.

 

The Defender is arguably best HLC platform in the game but it also takes up at minimum over a 1/3 of the points in your list. I love the Defender, but I'm going to be hard pressed to field it any more when I can throw in a couple cheap interceptors w/ ATs that I know won't get blown up when sneezed at.

 

I just went 2-2 in a tourney with a Vessery HLC /Kenkirk loaded combo. It performed decently, but I kept wishing I had a few more bodies in there. Especially when I ran into a list with at least 4 ships.

 

I think part of your list problem wasn't so much the Defender as the lack of guns on the board. You had a 3-dice attacker paired with 4-dice attacker. In order to run a two-ship list, you really need to be able to plan out how you're going to arc-dodge while still getting attacks on defenders, along with managing Phantoms. The Rebels are able to pull the trick through a combination of Han's turret and Corran's double-tap. It's the equivalent of three attacks every other round, and they're both high-enough PS to be effective Phantom hunters. Kenkirk and Vessery don't have that strength.

 

I love the Defender, especially in our new super-platter turret ship meta. Rexlar in particular excels against ships with 0-1 agility dice and a lot of hull.

 

 

Yeah my squad was more of an experiment than anything else. Its great against any ships that aren't very maneuverable or against smaller squads. But that's the main problem with the Defender. You usually are going to have more guns pointing at you then you can point at them.

 

The Deltas and Jonus are decent, but against any squad with maneuvering ability, you are in trouble. That tight formation you have to keep is going to make you very predictable.

 

I find the white k-turn is a double edged sword. 90% of the time its probably your best maneuver because your dial has red all over the good turns. Good luck with the stress too, the HWK-290 has a better dial for clearing stress. Makes them rather predictable.

 

I'm just predicting that the Defender is going to be nearly unused this time next year unless something is coming that synergies with it well.

Edited by Jo Jo

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