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Alex Cube

Untouchable Discordant

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Is that possible?

It is said that Discordant can not have any Warp-based powers but Untouchable/Blank/Pariah are not exactly warp-based as, for example, navigator powers, psykers or sorcery.

Besides Discordant does not look like a warp-based power either and if it is not hen it can't be blocked by Pariahs.

So this is a wild speculation but can there be an Untouchable Discordant?

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The only viable explanation for how Discordants work in-universe is through warp buggery (generation of a anti-technology murphyonic field, ala wizards in Jim Butcher's Dresdenverse), unless you're willing to postulate that a Necron Lord wanted to meddle with humans to screw up technology and introduced genetics that would cause the bearer of the full package to generate an absurdly powerful electromagnetic field, and emp generating organs. It would have to be a Necron, because all the other candidates for meddling with human genetics would utilize warp buggery, not electromagnetics.

 

I find the warp buggery explanation difficult enough, and the EM-field and pulse generation induced by a Necron is just absurd.

 

 

That said ... technically RAW allowable ... but you're basically asking for someone to kill you out of hand. That someone is quite likely to be a fellow player, because odds are quite good that you'll be screwing with one or more PCs on a regular basis.

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Combining the two is something I've pondered as well, but quickly dismissed for any serious game. I don't think a player character should have that kind of power, but NPCs are fair game in my book.

actually at 6k+ xp discordant is as much power as it is a drawback for it prohibits the use of cybernetics and bionics, wouldn't it be for Cult of Pure Form our discordant would be blind and without legs - not very good for an assassin yknow, that is why i'm thinking of an extra edge for her - meaning giving her Untouchable trait but unfortunately like fgdsfg I don't clearly understand how is it supposed to work mechanically in-universe, so this is not as mush question of power-level as of actual possibility at all

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How should I put this... Cybernetics aren't strictly needed to succeed. Depending on which source books you pull from (I'm thinking Radical's, mostly), you can "easily" get around the no-technology restriction. My main problem with the Untouchable Discordant is how the passive abilities stack. Off the top of my head, Discordants are "invisible" to technology while Untouchables are "invisible" to Psykers/Psyniscience. That fact alone is hard to balance a game around, and that's before the character picks up a Cameleoline Cloak or other means of becoming physically "invisible". I can definitely sympathize with an Untouchable Discordant assassin, but it's a GM headache.

 

As for how Discordants "work", I would say it's largely up to the GM given that so little information is provided in [The Lathe Worlds]. Theoretically, there should be no problem with Untouchable Discordants, but they're one hell of a special snowflake. If Untouchables are rare, and Discordants are rare, what are the chances that the rare Acolyte (out of a sea of normal citizens) could fall into both categories? Answer; dismally slim. Like I mentioned, I don't think Untouchable Discordant PCs have any place in a serious game. For mechanical and narrative reasons.

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Cybernetics are not needed if we are talking about MIU, Cortex implants, or other upgrades, if we are talking about a totaly blind melee assassin without legs, that's a different story, she had to take Cult of Pure Form not to retire her character. And although I have Radical's Handbook in my possession I do not remember a page where it is told how one can get around no-cybernetics/bionics/implants rule.

I got Your point, last question then - what possible narrative problems can there be with those characters in Your opinion?

Edited by Alex Cube

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I got Your point, last question then - what possible narrative problems can there be with those characters in Your opinion?

 

[javcs] brought up a valid point earlier:

 

That said ... technically RAW allowable ... but you're basically asking for someone to kill you out of hand. That someone is quite likely to be a fellow player, because odds are quite good that you'll be screwing with one or more PCs on a regular basis.

 

An Untouchable Discordant wouldn't get along with Tech-Priests/the Adeptus Mechanicus, Psykers, and even normal people at minimum. It's very hard for such a character to have allies, or at least those without an ulterior motive like selling the character out to some organization (like the Inquisition). Also, and this may stem from my inexperience, I don't know how one could roleplay this kind of twice-ostracized character. Off the top of my head, Untouchables already live incredibly harsh lives without being hunted for an unheard of ability to silence machine spirits. Honestly, I feel like the one natural born Untouchable Discordant in the universe is going to meet an early end before ever becoming an Acolyte. It's one thing for the GM to control an NPC since the NPC will have a static number of controlled interactions, but players will do Emperor knows what. Untouchables and Discordants are already very distinct from "normal" characters; combining them is rather absurd from a mechanical or narrative standpoint.

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I got Your point, last question then - what possible narrative problems can there be with those characters in Your opinion?

 

[javcs] brought up a valid point earlier:

 

That said ... technically RAW allowable ... but you're basically asking for someone to kill you out of hand. That someone is quite likely to be a fellow player, because odds are quite good that you'll be screwing with one or more PCs on a regular basis.

 

An Untouchable Discordant wouldn't get along with Tech-Priests/the Adeptus Mechanicus, Psykers, and even normal people at minimum. It's very hard for such a character to have allies, or at least those without an ulterior motive like selling the character out to some organization (like the Inquisition). Also, and this may stem from my inexperience, I don't know how one could roleplay this kind of twice-ostracized character. Off the top of my head, Untouchables already live incredibly harsh lives without being hunted for an unheard of ability to silence machine spirits. Honestly, I feel like the one natural born Untouchable Discordant in the universe is going to meet an early end before ever becoming an Acolyte. It's one thing for the GM to control an NPC since the NPC will have a static number of controlled interactions, but players will do Emperor knows what. Untouchables and Discordants are already very distinct from "normal" characters; combining them is rather absurd from a mechanical or narrative standpoint.

 

Yes. This is all assuming you didn't get killed as a child. The Imperium is a very superstitious place, and the tech-disruption of a Discordant would probably be attributed to dirty psychic powers, and then you'd either get killed out of hand, or sent to the Telepathica/black ships, whereupon determining you're an Untouchable, will likely kill you, or their supporting tech-priests, upon noticing your tech-disrupting abilities, will kill you.

 

Basically, you have to be born in a low- or no-tech environment to have remotely decent odds of surviving to adulthood. Oh, and since your first trip off planet is likely to be your first time flying, which is likely to be a frightening experience for a primitive, triggering tech-disruption, you probably crashed the shuttle and died. Oh, and on ship, you probably got shanked to death by superstitious crew/passengers for screwing up the life support systems.

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I don't think it is. While it is indeed techincally possible, and I too thought about such a character, I do believe it's not possible first, rules-wise. Because I think the Untouchables abilities are quite really warp-based. Disrupting it, as well as the souls of the people. They are a bit like reversed psykers, also counting within the The Assignment. So as much as attractive it may look, it would go against the rules to me.

Secondly, fluff-wise. Not just the rules and restrictions, that are present in the advance, but their very abilities are quite similar to that of the psykers. Who can just as well shut down the machines, hide from the sensors and generally be a tech-disrupting nuisance.

So, to me, everything suggests that they are also some particular sort of psykers, with innate machine-ruining abilites that are permanently active. Not unlike pariahs, whose tricks are warp-ruining. And due to their minds being fixed on this sole purpose, they are not able to be true psykers. But that's just my own theory. Although it does contradicts with the fact that Untouchables do not block this. But this is just as well maybe an overlooking.

 

Third and forth reasons is the aformentioned difficulties with survival. I don't really like special snowflakes.

And because their abilities should make it quite hard to use any kind of advanced gear, such as plasma gun and power armor. Maybe even bolter. And this makes for a challenging characters. Unless it's not an issue for a player.

Not mentioning GMing problems. Which is also might be an overlooking.

 

Overall, combining the two makes the kinds of Black Pariah to me, which I loathe.

 

 

And last. Did you notice Hive Desoleum in the box there?

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I have to admit I too thought of this, just to truly screw with my Sister Lucy Dark, of the Order Vespila.  She is an untouchable, who now works on dead patients and is expanding her knowledge base.

 

But I agree the screwing with the tech, that just to much to combo together.

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I think the combo is an excellent set up for an enemy if not grand master bad guy. I'm thinking a Nihilistic destroyer of existence type of guy.

 

I mean think about it. They have no soul essentially, they understand they are real because they are anathema to unreal. Technology isn't real to them because they are anathema to technology. By extension they are therefore anathema to real and unreal, they are the only real.

 

How's that for heretical musings?

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I think the combo is an excellent set up for an enemy if not grand master bad guy. I'm thinking a Nihilistic destroyer of existence type of guy.

 

I mean think about it. They have no soul essentially, they understand they are real because they are anathema to unreal. Technology isn't real to them because they are anathema to technology. By extension they are therefore anathema to real and unreal, they are the only real.

 

How's that for heretical musings?

Eh ... but someone who's an untouchable discordant - and has survived to adulthood - pretty much has to live in an extremely low-tech environment, but one where being an outcast isn't going to mean your doom, or one where the bulk of threats are warp-sensitive, and thus would avoid an untouchable.

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Eh ... but someone who's an untouchable discordant - and has survived to adulthood - pretty much has to live in an extremely low-tech environment, but one where being an outcast isn't going to mean your doom, or one where the bulk of threats are warp-sensitive, and thus would avoid an untouchable.

 

Unless they're cared for by a radical inquisitor slowly stoking the fires of destruction in their soul.

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Eh ... but someone who's an untouchable discordant - and has survived to adulthood - pretty much has to live in an extremely low-tech environment, but one where being an outcast isn't going to mean your doom, or one where the bulk of threats are warp-sensitive, and thus would avoid an untouchable.

 

Unless they're cared for by a radical inquisitor slowly stoking the fires of destruction in their soul.

 

That would require said radical inquisitor finding them as an infant - literally finding and recognizing them before the 'abilities' manifest or on the very first recognizable manifestation, or being born into that radical's service. The odds of that are quite a bit slimmer than having the necessary gene groups for both to manifest in a single person. I mean, I suppose that in theory a bughouse nuts radical could try to create a breeding program to foster both gene groups for some reason.

 

I think the odds of a random meteor successfully taking out the Golden Throne is more favorable.

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That would require said radical inquisitor finding them as an infant - literally finding and recognizing them before the 'abilities' manifest or on the very first recognizable manifestation, or being born into that radical's service. The odds of that are quite a bit slimmer than having the necessary gene groups for both to manifest in a single person. I mean, I suppose that in theory a bughouse nuts radical could try to create a breeding program to foster both gene groups for some reason.

 

I think the odds of a random meteor successfully taking out the Golden Throne is more favorable.

 

When you are the game master, all things are possible. If the God Emperor is in your path of a story, then the God Emperor shall move aside.

 

Also gene tampering could likely do the same thing.

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You can pretty much distregard my previous post. The official statement confirms that an Untouchable can also be a Discordant, with GM's approval.

Further, their abilites have no connection with psychic powers, and therefore cannot be blocked.

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You can pretty much distregard my previous post. The official statement confirms that an Untouchable can also be a Discordant, with GM's approval.

Further, their abilites have no connection with psychic powers, and therefore cannot be blocked.

And where is that stated, exactly?

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And where is that stated, exactly?

 

Discordant: Cannot have Psy Rating or cybernetics. May also never have Psychic, Faith, or Warp-based powers.

Untouchable: Cannot have Psychic, Faith, or Warp-based powers or abilities.

 

At least by RAW, their restrictions are not contradictory (rather, their restrictions are very similar!). Discordants disrupt technology (which Untouchables are not explicitly affiliated with) while Untouchables disrupt Psychic Powers (which Discordants do not use). Being an Untouchable does not exclude one from also being a Discordant and vice-versa, since neither one directly inhibits the other, you see? Though I think this point was already expressed and agreed upon.

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At least by RAW, their restrictions are not contradictory (rather, their restrictions are very similar!). Discordants disrupt technology (which Untouchables are not explicitly affiliated with) while Untouchables disrupt Psychic Powers (which Discordants do not use). Being an Untouchable does not exclude one from also being a Discordant and vice-versa, since neither one directly inhibits the other, you see? Though I think this point was already expressed and agreed upon.

 

 

I agree that restrictions are not necessarily contradictory, but they are a bit ambiguous on stating that, for We actually don't know if any of those clarify for "Warp-based power" in themselves.

I asked Leto because from His wording it seemed like He knows something We don't, and if that is true I wanted to find out where did he find it.

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And where is that stated, exactly?

 

Discordant: Cannot have Psy Rating or cybernetics. May also never have Psychic, Faith, or Warp-based powers.

Untouchable: Cannot have Psychic, Faith, or Warp-based powers or abilities.

 

At least by RAW, their restrictions are not contradictory (rather, their restrictions are very similar!). Discordants disrupt technology (which Untouchables are not explicitly affiliated with) while Untouchables disrupt Psychic Powers (which Discordants do not use). Being an Untouchable does not exclude one from also being a Discordant and vice-versa, since neither one directly inhibits the other, you see? Though I think this point was already expressed and agreed upon.

 

Strictly speaking, by RAW they're not explicitly exclusive. But, the rub is in how a Discordant's abilities work in-universe, that is, how do they generate the Discordant effect.

 

Discordants certainly don't use psychic powers in the conventional sense.  However, in-universe, the only viable explanation for how discordant abilities can work is through some form of innate and mostly passive warp-manipulation.

And, yes, I did toss out a biological emp/disruptive em field generator in discordants, but that's decidedly inadequate to disrupt the many of the things a discordant can nominally disrupt.

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He probably just sent the question in through official channels and received an answer.

 

Indeed I did. By saying "the official statement", I meant that I asked Tim Huckleberry and he gave those particular answers.

Which means the question is kinda settled.

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Indeed I did. By saying "the official statement", I meant that I asked Tim Huckleberry and he gave those particular answers.

Which means the question is kinda settled.

 

Thanks for that, I kinda forgot about that possibility, and that helped a lot.

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