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Wayne Argabright

Munitions fix?

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was just trying to apply logic to a "Fix"  yeah i know this is star wars..lol but was just thinking what about something along the lines of you get multiple or just (TWO) shots per munition at the cost of an agility reduction? until that munition is expended. Just like a Heavily loaded out F-15E is NOT going to maneuver like one that's NOT loaded with bombs etc.. 

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but the problem with something that's totally "Free" is that of course everyone would use it..( although in the case of munitions that's still valid IMHO). The flip idea would work good combined with my idea. It would also add an element of protecting the bombers etc until they get to their targets and expend their munitions. would like to see the idea applied to ALL munitions as well. Including missiles and torpedoes.you get more shots per munition BUT at the cost of agility. along those same "Logical" lines if you wanted to take it further at the risk of overly complicating the game mechanics each munition could have a weight (Agility) penalty. 

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Multiple shots won't fix Munitions. Think about every time you've used Munitions, and when have you been in range to get off a proper 2nd shot? You fire a Proton Torpedo at R 2-3, have you ever still been in R2-3 the turn after to fire it again? people are usually out of arc or in R1.
The only ones that benefit from that are the R1+ munitions. Munitions need an ACCURACY fix. Multiple shots will never fix the problems munitions has.

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I still think that the easiest thing to do is simply to change it from "and discard this card" to "and turn this card sideways; if the card is already turned sideways, discard this card instead."

 

This allows two uses per ordinance buy.

 

Munitions Failsafe would be changed to "that instructs you to turn the card sideways or discard it to perform the attack, do not do so unless the attack hits."

 

Alternatively, come up with a term for turning the card sideways to add to the rulebook. "When a card says to Expend it, that means to turn the card sideways." Ordinance would then say "and Expend this card; if the card is already Expended, discard it instead." Munitions Failsafe would then say "that instructs you to Expend or discard the card to perform the attack..."

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i agree and perhaps another solution is to increase the "Bang" for the buck.. as in increase damage out put as well.. I just think something needs to be done as they seem to NOT be cost effective at all...particularly if your using a native 3 red dice slinging ship to began with... granted the newer munitions that just came out are slightly better.. at the risk of power creep increase the damage output by one for ALL munitions and that would help IMHO... or a really simple fix is for it NOT to be an "Action" as in you can fire lasers AND expend munitions in one glorious attack..lol

Edited by Swedge

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Modification: Auto Guidance System

"you do not need to spend your target lock or have a target lock on the defender to spend you missiles or torps" 0pt

Or something like that. You get improved accuracy by not spending tokens and if you have a Y wing with torps or a z95 with a missile on 1 hull no tokens and will be dead next round before he can shoot you can still fire them and be glade you didn't waist points on something you didn't use

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I like it wing nut.  seems like the best solution I have read so far.   It makes munitions fail safe obsolete, as it is also a modification.  and it also kills dead eye.  But who cares, those cards are dead anyway because they are just about useless as is.

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I like it wing nut.  seems like the best solution I have read so far.   It makes munitions fail safe obsolete, as it is also a modification.  and it also kills dead eye.  But who cares, those cards are dead anyway because they are just about useless as is.

 

I would still take Munitions Fail Safe if im flying a B wing with Flechette Torpedoes and FCS against Interceptors to keep stressing them for as long as I can. even more so now Autothrusters is coming. Dead eye would still see some use if there was a Modification you wanted more. It would all depend on the list you wanted to fly

 

I realy dont like the idea of turning a card sideways. X wing is not a card game and i dont want to spend time think about my opponets cards and if they are turned or not. The way some people place there ship cards, damage cards, and sheild tokens makes it hard enough to keep track of things.

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Another alternative is to put two or three tokens on each ordinance card (pick a number based on balance; 2 should be good to start with, really), and every use removes a token. You could then replace any requirement to discard the card with a requirement to remove a token. If you can't remove a token (because you ran out, for instance, or due to potential future card effects) then you can't use the ordinance.

 

It'd make fixing Munitions Failsafe even easier, as the text just changes to "that instructs you to remove a token to perform the attack, do not do so unless the attack hits."

 

You wouldn't even need special tokens, either. Just use some of the multitude of stress or ion or crit or whatever tokens that come in all the sets.

 

It has the added advantage of making it that little bit easier to track what upgrades were purchased for which ships, too, since there's no discarding involved, which might help a bit with scoring.

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Something like that is what maby should have been done from the start insted of a card for 1 torpedo maby it should have been an up grade card for a Torpedo Launcher and you spend tokens from the card like the Corvettes lasers and no need for a target lock. After all luke did not need a target lock to blow up the Death Star :D. But I think were to late in the game for a change like that unfortunately.

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Multiple shots won't fix Munitions. Think about every time you've used Munitions, and when have you been in range to get off a proper 2nd shot? You fire a Proton Torpedo at R 2-3, have you ever still been in R2-3 the turn after to fire it again? people are usually out of arc or in R1.

The only ones that benefit from that are the R1+ munitions. Munitions need an ACCURACY fix. Multiple shots will never fix the problems munitions has.

This is were the Tie Bomber will be amazing. The Range 5 K-Turn will enable the Tie Bomber to actually shoot again.

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Well here are 4 ways to fix munitions.

 

  1. Make new but more powerful munition cards. Problem is trying to find the balance. If they become too powerful then everyone will take it as it becomes an I win card. Every ship battle will become a quasi-trench-run in which people will be building to only land torpedo hits as that is the only thing that would matter.
  2. Make new upgrade cards that help munitions. There are 2 cards that do that. Dead-eye and munition failsafe. Thing is that they have to be cheap to off set the point cost for munitions.
  3. Make new pilots that do great with munitions. There are a few like Krassis Trelix and Nera Dantiels who make great use of munitions.
  4. Make a change to the core rule set to make secondary weapon attacks prefer munitions such as adding the range bonus for turrets and cannons and illicit but keeping them removed for munitions. However that still might buff range 1 cannons while nerfing range 1 munitions.

Things that I think are absolutely not an option.

  • Making errata to cards that revers the printed texts such as removing the spend target lock requirement. Errata should explain and expand the utility of the upgrade but not completely contradict the printed text.
  • Reprinting munitions cards. Sure it has been out for a few years but I don't believe a reprint is necessarily needed. The developers have done very well to avoid power creep and still there are plenty of core set pilots and upgrade that are still valid today.
  • Making overpowered munitions upgrades, for the reason I explained in option 1.
  • Extending range or adding mechanics that require additional game resources outside of what is available in the core set. Range 4-5 extenders are only available in either the Tantive-IV expansion which is $90+ or spend in 3rd party tools which will make people invest spending in 3rd party products over FFG products instead of spending in FFG products and then 3rd party products as enhancements to FFG products.

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Agreed. If you want to up the range on munitions, then go from range 3 to 'unlimited' - it's not like your target gets bonus defence dice, so you don't actually need a range ruler.

 

I dunno. I agree that a lot of ordnance doesn't seem that great - the only ones I've seen repeatedly are proton rockets and assualt missiles. I used to use concussion missiles a lot on TIE advanced, but am bumping them in favour of proton rockets which seem specifically designed for the advanced.

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Multiple shots won't fix Munitions. Think about every time you've used Munitions, and when have you been in range to get off a proper 2nd shot? You fire a Proton Torpedo at R 2-3, have you ever still been in R2-3 the turn after to fire it again? people are usually out of arc or in R1.

The only ones that benefit from that are the R1+ munitions. Munitions need an ACCURACY fix. Multiple shots will never fix the problems munitions has.

 

Not sure I totally agree with this. Yes, I think an accuracy increase (or a points decrease) will fix a lot of ordnance, and is the easiest fix, but I think multiple shots could also make it more effective.I don't know about you, but my games tend to be much more in the range 2 bracket than range 1. 

 

I think the upgrade I would prefer would be more along the lines of

 

Modification: Auto-loaders

Whenever you perform a green maneuver, flip one of your face down ordnance cards face up.

 

It places limits the ship, but it can still load + fire given the right situation.

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Modification: Auto Guidance System

"you do not need to spend your target lock or have a target lock on the defender to spend you missiles or torps" 0pt

Or something like that. You get improved accuracy by not spending tokens and if you have a Y wing with torps or a z95 with a missile on 1 hull no tokens and will be dead next round before he can shoot you can still fire them and be glade you didn't waist points on something you didn't use

 

I like it too:

 

But I don't like the fact it's a modification.   You basically make munitions failsafe a useless card.

 

I think it has to be a FAQ or Title to fix with the same rules you stated.

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I think a new card is wrong.  I think a FAQ ruling would be the best bet.  I stated in another thread that you can say something like:

 

Whenever you have a firing requirement ATTACK (x) [where x is Target Lock or Focus] then you are required to use the requirement during the attack, but you can still use the requirement to adjust the dice roll.

 

So, you can use the Target Lock of Focus for any weapon, not just missiles or torpedoes.  Remember Blaster Turrets?  Those are the 3 red dice weapons that require a Focus that no one uses.  How useful would those be if you could actually use that Focus for the shot?  I think it would fix them, as well. 

Edited by heychadwick

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I like that idea Chadwick

 

 

You could make it a Modification I guess:

 

Like this:

Modification: Ordinance Targeting Computer

1 pts.

After breaking a target lock to use an Attack Target Lock card, but before die are rolled.   Roll 1 attack die and on a hit you may place the target lock back on the target.

 

It's keeps Munitions Failure  active, because it doesn't work all the time.  Hence the trade off

Edited by eagletsi111

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I like that idea Chadwick

You could make it a Modification I guess:

Like this:

Modification: Ordinance Targeting Computer

1 pts.

After breaking a target lock to use an Attack Target Lock card, but before die are rolled. Roll 1 attack die and on a hit you may place the target lock back on the target.

It's keeps Munitions Failure active, because it doesn't work all the time. Hence the trade off

I think the focus requirement was put on the blaster turret to ensure it wouldn't become auto include on a y wing or hwk...why use ions at all when I can just up my attk and give myself a 360 during range. I think that new ywing mod will go a long way to bringing the blaster turret to life

Edited by ShakeZoola72

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Agreed. If you want to up the range on munitions, then go from range 3 to 'unlimited' - it's not like your target gets bonus defence dice, so you don't actually need a range ruler.

 

I dunno. I agree that a lot of ordnance doesn't seem that great - the only ones I've seen repeatedly are proton rockets and assualt missiles. I used to use concussion missiles a lot on TIE advanced, but am bumping them in favour of proton rockets which seem specifically designed for the advanced.

There is also the issue of firing arcs and if the defender is inside arc or not. I have seen and played games where there was only a small corner in arc around range 2. Keep in mind when thinking of ideas you need to restrict yourself to the tools inside a core set because those are the only tools available to every player. Not all player buy fancy 3rd party templates or laser levels to play the game. 

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