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The End Times baseless speculation thread

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Part of me says "OMG THIS IS AWESOME" and another part of me says that they'll probably go for the most stupid options lorewise.

 

After "The End Times" of Warhammer Fantasy, this is pretty much a given.

Warhammer Fantasy used to be by far one of my favourite settings, far moreso than Warhammer 40k, so I'm pretty much bracing on leaving Warhammer behind completely by now.

 

Anybody have the cliffnotes version of what this entailed?

 

GW pretty much DESTROYING the warhammer world...

 

Holy crap! My interest in the Old World has been waning ever since GW stopped supporting Mordheim; and I haven't read anything GW in a couple years. Looks like I picked the wrong time to stop paying attention...

 

I wonder if 'post End Times' will become the new default setting, or if all games from now on will be set pre-End Times. If it's the former, I have to give GW credit for making bold changes to a stagnant setting, but at the same time, they are destroying the most colorful parts of the world and replacing them with boring old Generic Chaos.

 

Or, they could run this storyline to an epic conclusion, with the surviving Slann and Elves coming together at the last minute to cast a mega-powered spell that closes the polar warp breach, leaving the Empire destroyed but Chaos powerless. Then, pick up the setting 1,000 years later; after a Dark Age, with no more magic, humans and dwarfs have developed a 'steampunk' level of technology. Then the warp breach begins to open again- will the Wonderments of Technologae be able to stand against a new Age of Magic...? (Yes, this is Shadowrun-meets-Iron Kingdoms. Sue me!)

Edited by Adeptus-B

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Or, they could run this storyline to an epic conclusion, with the surviving Slann and Elves coming together at the last minute to cast a mega-powered spell that closes the polar warp breach, leaving the Empire destroyed but Chaos powerless. Then, pick up the setting 1,000 years later; after a Dark Age, with no more magic, humans and dwarfs have developed a 'steampunk' level of technology. Then the warp breach begins to open again- will the Wonderments of Technologae be able to stand against a new Age of Magic...? (Yes, this is Shadowrun-meets-Iron Kingdoms. Sue me!)

 

 

From what i've heard the slann are planning on LEAVING! Yup, they are calling quits on the warhammer world. Thats teh one thing that made my jaw drop.

 

"The age of magic" That made me think of that old "Visionaries: Knights of the magical light" cartoon.

Edited by Robin Graves

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Holy crap! My interest in the Old World has been waning ever since GW stopped supporting Mordheim; and I haven't read anything GW in a couple years. Looks like I picked the wrong time to stop paying attention...

This is an obligatory public service announcement notifying everyone that there is going to be a Mordheim video game: http://mordheim-cityofthedamned.com/

God willing it will not follow the pattern of GW licensed video games sucking ass (DoW being the one exception).

I also heard a rumor that FFG might get the GW Specialist Games license. So Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic... all in the capable hands of FFG. (Contrary to my opinions on FFG's handling of the 40k RPG system I have great faith in their boardgame division)

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I wonder if they are allowed to make GW based minis. Relic after all had busts of the characters rather than figures because GW still has the licence/rights? for those. And FF already has Bloodbowl and Space hulk.

 

Bring on the  mordheim/necromunda/gorkamorka games! And make a Talisman game set in the warhammer universe, just like the old versions. Maybe we can have heroquest/ space crusade using the Descent systhem, or does MB still have the rights?

 

Or Dark future! Yeah bring that one back!

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I also heard a rumor that FFG might get the GW Specialist Games license. So Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic... all in the capable hands of FFG. (Contrary to my opinions on FFG's handling of the 40k RPG system I have great faith in their boardgame division)

 

That would be awesome- I like GW's 'small-scale' games much better than their 'huge army' games (I've recently started dabbling in Warmachine/Hordes to scratch my itch for smaller-scale skirmish games). But:

 

I wonder if they are allowed to make GW based minis.

 

I read somewhere that GW won't allow licensees to put out minis that might 'compete' with their official ones- hence the busts in Relic. Necromunda/Gorkamorka/Mordheim would be pretty pointless without representative miniatures...

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I also heard a rumor that FFG might get the GW Specialist Games license. So Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic... all in the capable hands of FFG. (Contrary to my opinions on FFG's handling of the 40k RPG system I have great faith in their boardgame division)

Where did you hear this, 'cause Necromunda is the best thing GW has ever done and I want to know more?

BYE

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I also heard a rumor that FFG might get the GW Specialist Games license. So Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic... all in the capable hands of FFG. (Contrary to my opinions on FFG's handling of the 40k RPG system I have great faith in their boardgame division)

Where did you hear this, 'cause Necromunda is the best thing GW has ever done and I want to know more?

BYE

Someone on another forum linked this http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/11/fantasy-flight-games-getting-allocated.html and claimed to have talked to some insider somewhere about it (possibly "my dad works for nintendo" levels of bull).

That said, GW will never allow their licenses to be used to sell a competing miniatures line, so I expect anything FFG does with them to be more along the lines of their board games.

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Anybody read what Fgdsfg posted? 

 

 

[...]

Anyway, for now I feel like I can relax at least a bit:

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

 

Yeah. On top of that, I gather this Graham McNeill fellow is just an author of 40k novels. His ideas being greenlit only means there would be a novel about 40k End Times. It doesn't imply anything about the 40k tabletop game, related fluff or miniatures being impacted.

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Yeah. On top of that, I gather this Graham McNeill fellow is just an author of 40k novels. His ideas being greenlit only means there would be a novel about 40k End Times. It doesn't imply anything about the 40k tabletop game, related fluff or miniatures being impacted.

Did the WHFB shake-up effect tabletop rules at all? I can't imagine it wouldn't.

Let's also keep in mind that GW is in the business of selling luxury plastic toy soldiers and anything they do with their IP is to sell more toy army mans.

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Yeah. On top of that, I gather this Graham McNeill fellow is just an author of 40k novels. His ideas being greenlit only means there would be a novel about 40k End Times. It doesn't imply anything about the 40k tabletop game, related fluff or miniatures being impacted.

Did the WHFB shake-up effect tabletop rules at all? I can't imagine it wouldn't.

Let's also keep in mind that GW is in the business of selling luxury plastic toy soldiers and anything they do with their IP is to sell more toy army mans.

From my quick research, the Fantasy End Times come with sweeping changes to army makeup and particular special characters.

 

As a side note, I'm feeling as if someone in GW is reading my mind, as I ran an epic, all-or-nothing campaign of WFRP 2e with Nagash as the big baddy a couple years ago, and some of the plot points feel eerily similar.

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That said, GW will never allow their licenses to be used to sell a competing miniatures line, so I expect anything FFG does with them to be more along the lines of their board games.

 

If GW was smart (not a given), they would produce the figures for licensed games themselves, with dual-applicability between said game and their tabletop games, using the licensing fee to offset the expense of making new figures. There is some precedent for this: in 1990, Milton Bradley produced the Space Crusade boardgame in partnership with GW, which used GW-produced figures for playing pieces.

 

ensemble.JPG

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Yeah. On top of that, I gather this Graham McNeill fellow is just an author of 40k novels. His ideas being greenlit only means there would be a novel about 40k End Times. It doesn't imply anything about the 40k tabletop game, related fluff or miniatures being impacted.

Did the WHFB shake-up effect tabletop rules at all? I can't imagine it wouldn't.Let's also keep in mind that GW is in the business of selling luxury plastic toy soldiers and anything they do with their IP is to sell more toy army mans.

Graham McNeill is probably the lead writer in the Horus Heresy series. He is hugely influential over the development of that line, and his plots are incorporated seamlessly into the wider canon. what he says is important to the line...which is probably why his retraction was rushed out so quickly.

As for warhammer end times rule changes, to paraphrase wildly, Tomb kings and Vampire counts merged into one army under Nagash with enhanced special,characters, new Chaos characters, high, dark and wood elves merged into new different lists.

Edited by Lightbringer

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If GW was smart (not a given), they would produce the figures for licensed games themselves, with dual-applicability between said game and their tabletop games, using the licensing fee to offset the expense of making new figures. There is some precedent for this: in 1990, Milton Bradley produced the Space Crusade boardgame in partnership with GW, which used GW-produced figures for playing pieces.

 

ensemble.JPG

 

 

 

Awwwyeah! I loved this game back in the day! Same for Heroquest and Battlemasters!

 

hq-capa.jpg

 

battlemasters.jpg

Edited by Robin Graves

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The younger me had good times with that.  :wub:

 

Wasn't it called Starquest over here? ;)

 

 

Yep ! And I also got HeroQuest and the other game... I didn't play Battle Masters as much though compared to the other games.

 

I played HeroQuest with my brother, but it was only just us. Apparently the game gets more challenging when you have different heroes or herogroups competing for the reward. That and the EU rules were different compared to the US rules, EU rules were easier as far as I remember. Might have just been a difference in monster health, probably was.

Edited by Gridash

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Lynata, you're right about the Third War for Armageddon campaign, that was great. GW doesn't seem to have run campaigns like that in 40k since the 13th Black Crusade. It's supposition on my part, but I think that this might be because handing the fans the chance to, by their own battles, permanently interfere with the entire setting and thereby GW's intellectual property, was probably a bit of a step too far for them.

(Actually we're forgetting the pretty godawful Medusa V campaign here, thinking about it.)

...

As for Graham McNeill's comments, yes, I know he's retracted them, but I do think that the very fact he's "musing" like that is slightly worrying. It suggests he doesn't really value the setting as is and thinks bringing back the Primarchs is a good idea. I personally think it's NOT a good idea, and risks killing the golden goose for GW.

Medusa V was a reaction to the Eye of Terror campaign. They had been building up for years towards a climax (Armageddon was part of this, but also the 12 Black Crusade as detailed in Battlefleet Gothic, and there had been other story items building towards something). They kept wanting to go bigger with their campaigns, and they had already done a couple of system based ones (Armageddon, and the earlier Ichar IV one), so they wanted to go bigger... What they wanted was a big epic campaign, which 1) could involved all the factions to make it open to everyone background wise and 2) would have the Imperium struggling but eventually fighting off Chaos.

 

However, by handing over the results to games played they lost the control they really wanted. Chaos posters were much more clever about their posting of battle results and Chaos basically won. Not by a huge margin overall, but they won on Cadia, which had always been trailed as the all important one, which if they won they would burst open the Cadian Gate and be able to start moving to the Imperium. Whoops... chaos won, and GW didn't know what to do with it. Yes, Chaos was not ready to go an assault to Terra, but the Imperium was on the run and the next logical move was an "End time" campaign. That was when the plot froze. Combined with the opposite flop that was the Storm of Chaos the next year for fantasy (Chaos got stuck and GW had to force them through to reach Middenheim in time) they decided they were not going to do "big" campaigns any more. they refocussed on something smaller, but still wanted all players to feel they could take part, so didn't theme it (resulting in the bland Medusa V which no one cared about. I think they also had the Warhammer one about the Crown of Command or something).

 

The Fantasy storyline actually continued, mostly in WFRP 2nd edition, but that has all been wiped out as canon by the End Times (something GW very rarely do, but they have done in this case, as this basically overwrites the Storm of Chaos storyline), which is entirely under the control of GW. The plot is proceeding as a plot, rather than a result of how a campaign is going. Bizarrely it is actually the one which less logically should go this way, as Order were exhausted but actually ascendant in the Storm of Chaos, while the Imperium lost the Eye of Terror campaign. Warhammer, until this point, was actually the more "progressive" of the two settings. Yes it was dark, but the Empire was a nation going through the revolution from a medieval feudal order to a city based one more on the lines of the cities of the Renaissance, with the rise of the monied classes like Merchants and Artisans guilds. 

 

Personally I don't think I am terribly worried about what he is saying. He says he is thinking about bringing back Gulliman back "in a way" or something. He tends to be more measured in his writing of stuff than, say, Matt Ward (who apparently tried to deliberately contradict McNeill's stuff so that it wouldn't be canon). I imagine he is thinking of something less setting shattering than an actual return of a Primarch.

 

 

Yeah. On top of that, I gather this Graham McNeill fellow is just an author of 40k novels. His ideas being greenlit only means there would be a novel about 40k End Times. It doesn't imply anything about the 40k tabletop game, related fluff or miniatures being impacted.

Did the WHFB shake-up effect tabletop rules at all? I can't imagine it wouldn't.

Change up of how characters work (mostly the fact that characters and monster mounts now get a blended stat line), a reshaping of many of their characters (or just right off killing them off) both story wise and rules wise (certain characters have just become monstrous powerhouses). Army building rules shaken up (points limits on characters shifted around in order to accommodate ~1000 point characters in games of less than 4000 points. Armies becoming blended (all undead are now in one army, elves are now one army). Magic has probably had the biggest shake up, changing as the various books are coming out (with normal GW "we haven't quite thought this through" balance issues).

 

Basically it looks like they are building towards what 9th edition will look like as they go along. Updated magic, armies more working on a "faction" basis with more freedom within them. Undead,rather than Tomb Kings and Vampire Lords. Chaos, rather than Chaos Warriors, Beastmen & Deamons (both kind of like they used to be). Elves, rather than "high", "dark" and "wood" variety. Humans, rather than Empire and Bretonnian. Where dwarves, Lizardmen and Skaven will sit remains to be seen. Army construction also looks like it will be more open (I am imagining they are moving more towards the 40k "unbound" model, where you are allowed to pretty much field what you want).

 

There is a major question about where it is going to go after this even if the rules changes may be implied by what is going on at the moment. Will they drop Fantasy completely? Hmm... seems unlikely, especially after generating all this buzz over it. Will it be set before the End Times (which will really be the End Times), or will there be something after it (post-apocalyptic setting), or will they start a new fantasy setting? How will this change the game? Some have suggested that if they are going to set it in some post-apocalyptic setting it might be more of a skirmish game?

Edited by borithan

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... That was when the plot froze. Combined with the opposite flop that was the Storm of Chaos the next year for fantasy (Chaos got stuck and GW had to force them through to reach Middenheim in time) they decided they were not going to do "big" campaigns any more...

 

I miss the big 'global campaigns' GW used to stage each summer, with their new figures and rules for specific sub-factions. It was irritating that, despite the hype about the 'fate of the setting' being at stake, nothing seemed to change in the wake of the campaigns; but they were a lot of fun while they were in progress.

 

I assumed the loss of these campaigns was just more bad corporate-level decision-making; it didn't even occur to me that GW might be dropping them because they weren't getting the 'story results' they wanted...

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Yep ! And I also got HeroQuest and the other game... I didn't play Battle Masters as much though compared to the other games.

 

I played HeroQuest with my brother, but it was only just us. Apparently the game gets more challenging when you have different heroes or herogroups competing for the reward. That and the EU rules were different compared to the US rules, EU rules were easier as far as I remember. Might have just been a difference in monster health, probably was.

 

 

Yeah battlemaster was kinda cool with the battlemat (that we used as a table cloth at least twice  :P  )

but the card based movement was to random for me so we rarely used that. Also sometimes the figgures would fall of teh bases. (**** you chaos knights! y u keep falling over?)

 

Played starquest with my dad. One game saw my bloedproever (dutch blood angles yay!) captain as the last survivor of his team stalked and hounded all the way back to the start point- and i just could'nt kill the **** thing! It was a very tense game and i almost made it safely back! Bloody genestealers! (I'll spare everyone the ducth translation of those.)

 

One more thing about Heroquest: Did you have the panini stickerbook? Heres a site with the rules pdf for the UK/US rules and cards if anybody wants them: http://www.pokewhat.com/cyber333/hqdownloads/3_down.html

Edited by Robin Graves

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Anybody read what Fgdsfg posted? 

Anyway, for now I feel like I can relax at least a bit:

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

 

Whoops! Colour me relieved, then. I actually did miss that part. ;)

 

God willing it will not follow the pattern of GW licensed video games sucking ass (DoW being the one exception).

 

I'm probably picking it up as soon as they add the Sisters. From all the videos I've seen so far, it does indeed look surprisingly decent, given the quality of recent license tie-ins. In fact, it offers more than I would expect from a game like that, all the while maintaining a fairly basic foundation (the idea of action points translating into circles alone is pretty ingenious). My only regret is that I wish something like this would exist for Necromunda.

 

As for that rumour regarding FFG and Specialist Games ... my body is ready.

 

 

Graham McNeill is probably the lead writer in the Horus Heresy series. He is hugely influential over the development of that line, and his plots are incorporated seamlessly into the wider canon. what he says is important to the line...which is probably why his retraction was rushed out so quickly.

 

Eh, so far I have to see anything from the Horus Heresy series being embraced by GW in its own books. Still no mention of the Sisters of Silence ever existing, and the 6E TT rulebook directly contradicts the novels' silly concept of "Perpetuals". Better that way, as far as my biased self is concerned.

 

Though McNeill really is a good writer. I'm currently reading his "I, Mengsk", and so far I have to say he did a really nice job with the SC IP. Well-written and meaningful characters.

 

However, by handing over the results to games played they lost the control they really wanted. [...] Combined with the opposite flop that was the Storm of Chaos the next year for fantasy (Chaos got stuck and GW had to force them through to reach Middenheim in time) they decided they were not going to do "big" campaigns any more. they refocussed on something smaller, but still wanted all players to feel they could take part, so didn't theme it (resulting in the bland Medusa V which no one cared about. 

 

It's kind of sad. Personally, I have no problem with 40k as a setting "frozen in time", and I'm sure they could just set aside worlds or systems, perhaps entire sectors for campaigns and make it sound important, without it actually changing much in the grand scheme of things. Sort of like the Kaurava conflict in Dawn of War. Hell, even Armageddon wouldn't actually mean the end of the Imperium if the Orks would win, although I admit that Armageddon is pretty nice to have as a setting, too ...

 

Was it really just the players refusing to get hyped about anything less than setting-changing events, or could GW have done more to promote this stuff? And if the players really do need to feel invested in something bigger, would there be room for some sort of compromise where GW maintains editorial control and decides the general outcome, but allows players to influence certain details, such as whether if a battle was a total or a phyrric victory? This would also make the inevitable victory point cheating less "intrusive".

 

I actually do remember the Medusa campaign somewhat ... The whole campaign looked like it had a nice set-up, but I don't think it was nearly as much supported and hyped as Armageddon and Black Crusade were. There was never a codex, just a booklet (that didn't even cover all participating armies). Its website was a lot smaller and less detailed. And there were fewer WD updates, too. I'm sure all of that was a factor in the playerbases' less impressed perception of the campaign.

Edited by Lynata

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