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The End Times baseless speculation thread

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http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2014/12/end-times-for-40k.html

 

So that little bit in the 40k tabletop rulebook about the Golden Throne having a flaw in it is going to get expanded on. Sounds like they're going to get the band back together and have the Primarchs do something - but what?

 

Will Robiute "Mary Sue-est Sue Sue" Guilliman save the day and take the Emperor's place?

 

Will the most bland chapter of transhuman super soldiers continue to be the most boring?

 

Will any actually interesting space marine chapters get any screen time?

 

Will the Emperor be allowed to die? Can the Astronomicon keep running on just the burning souls of sacrificed psykers, or is the Emperor actually required to make the thing work?

 

Will any of the less Chaos-y traitor legions be revealed to be good guys?

 

Which Mary Sue characters will be killed off, and which will reach new heights of Mary Sue-edness?

 

I have it on no authority whatsoever that the Emperor has actually been dead for a long time and the whole business on Terra is just keeping up appearances to keep the Imperium from splintering into a thousand city-state sectors.

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I believe that his body is long dead, but if a primarch were to take the throne the Emperor would take his body as his own. At least that's what I hope they'd do. No odd star child nonsense. How some would take that possession and "rebirth" would be up to much civil strife.

 

However it's GW, so whatever answer is the most grimdarktm is what they will likely go with. So astronomicon fails New Black Crusade breaks ground on terra in the chaos and humanity has to bind itself togother in their solitude to hold the countless lines that they've dug in across the galaxy. Can the primarch save the day? Not without a likely sacrafice.

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I'd go with civil war for 40k End Times. The Emperor dies because the Golden Throne fails. Being a Perpetual he reincarnates somewhere. Most of Terra's ruling elite wants to hang on to the status quo so they rally against the Emperor and refuse to acknowledge his new incarnation for what he is.

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GW is going out of business.

 

It's a last ditch effort to bring in some extra interest.

 

They're blowing up the line cuz if they can't have it, no one can!

 

The Emperor ascends to full Chaos godhood.

 

Terra's sun explodes into a supernova of unprecedented scale that engulfs the entire Imperium.

 

Guilliman leads a black crusade to the gates of the Imperial Palace, defended by the stalwart heroes of the Alpha Legion... for the rematch of the decade, wait, century, wait, millennium, wait, ten millenniums-es!!!

 

While we're all speculating baselessly.

 

This really IS fun!!

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The 'flaw' in the Golden Throne mentioned in the rulebook is that it it is beginning to break down after 10,000 years of continuous function- and it can't be repaired with any known technology. So, just putting someone else in it isn't the issue- it's how will the Imperium navigate the warp once it ceases to function?

 

One popular theory is that, while the Emperor's body is long-dead, the function of the Throne is preventing his 'soul' from reincarnating; once the Throne shuts down, there will be a few decades of hell for the Imperium as warp travel becomes nearly impossible, followed by the Second Coming of the reincarnated Emperor.

 

Or else it's Game Over for the Imperium, Chaos scores a temporary victory just before the 'nids eat the galaxy, and that's that...

 

And how did the Ultramarines get the reputation of the most Mary-Sue of the Chapters? Since 'Mary-Sue' literally means 'wish-fulfillment-to-the-point-of-absurdity', all Space Marines qualify for that term, but the Wolverine-inspired dark-n-bloody Chapters (Charcaradons especially) seem like the most aggressively nerd-fantasy-pandering Chapters to me. Why all the interweb-finger-pointing at the 'baseline' Chapter?

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And how did the Ultramarines get the reputation of the most Mary-Sue of the Chapters? Since 'Mary-Sue' literally means 'wish-fulfillment-to-the-point-of-absurdity', all Space Marines qualify for that term, but the Wolverine-inspired dark-n-bloody Chapters (Charcaradons especially) seem like the most aggressively nerd-fantasy-pandering Chapters to me. Why all the interweb-finger-pointing at the 'baseline' Chapter?

 

Matt Ward's 5th Edition Space Marine Codex. There's literally a line in it that suggests that all other Space Marines WISH they were good enough to be Ultramarines.

 

Also Marneus Calgar is absolutely ridiculous. He's killed an Eldar Avatar and killed the Tyranid Swarmlord with his bare hands. If Ward hadn't written up Kaldor Draigo, I'd have thought Calgar's Sue-ness couldn't have possibly been topped.

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Part of me says "OMG THIS IS AWESOME" and another part of me says that they'll probably go for the most stupid options lorewise.

After "The End Times" of Warhammer Fantasy, this is pretty much a given.

Warhammer Fantasy used to be by far one of my favourite settings, far moreso than Warhammer 40k, so I'm pretty much bracing on leaving Warhammer behind completely by now.

Anyway, for now I feel like I can relax at least a bit:

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/

Edited by Fgdsfg

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Part of me says "OMG THIS IS AWESOME" and another part of me says that they'll probably go for the most stupid options lorewise.

After "The End Times" of Warhammer Fantasy, this is pretty much a given.

Warhammer Fantasy used to be by far one of my favourite settings, far moreso than Warhammer 40k, so I'm pretty much bracing on leaving Warhammer behind completely by now.

 

 

Anybody have the cliffnotes version of what this entailed?

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And how did the Ultramarines get the reputation of the most Mary-Sue of the Chapters?

 

I always found the Space Wolves to be the most Mary-Sue chapter.  "We have all the strength of awesomeness of a Space Marine, but we're not a bunch of boring old battle-monks; we're PARTY VIKINGS!  Woooo!"

 

Warhammer Fantasy used to be by far one of my favourite settings, far moreso than Warhammer 40k, so I'm pretty much bracing on leaving Warhammer behind completely by now.

 

 

Or, you could just not buy any of the new materials and continue to enjoy the present setting for the rest of your life.

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Wow I'm super exited about this! warhammer end times is kicking serious but! can't wayt for this.

 

Here's my take on what could happen:

 

Maybe Guilliman will become the new Horus. Big G wakes up from stasis, sees the imperium has gone to pot and decides to fix things. the Inquisition and the high lords don't like it and so Roboute calls his sons to him...

 

Thats right... all of them!*

Horus commanded Half of the legions of old. Roboute will have 3/4 of all chapters!

 

 

* not all ultra-geneseed chapters will join him but some who aren't might joins his cause.

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And how did the Ultramarines get the reputation of the most Mary-Sue of the Chapters? Since 'Mary-Sue' literally means 'wish-fulfillment-to-the-point-of-absurdity', all Space Marines qualify for that term, but the Wolverine-inspired dark-n-bloody Chapters (Charcaradons especially) seem like the most aggressively nerd-fantasy-pandering Chapters to me. Why all the interweb-finger-pointing at the 'baseline' Chapter?

 

Matt Ward's 5th Edition Space Marine Codex. There's literally a line in it that suggests that all other Space Marines WISH they were good enough to be Ultramarines.

 

Also Marneus Calgar is absolutely ridiculous. He's killed an Eldar Avatar and killed the Tyranid Swarmlord with his bare hands. If Ward hadn't written up Kaldor Draigo, I'd have thought Calgar's Sue-ness couldn't have possibly been topped.

 

 

Meh, even Lorgar beat up an avathar of Khaine, they aren't that tough. Angron went solo against a titan. Fulgrim killed two primarch (well since rowboat girlyman is back his score is back to 1)

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Part of me says "OMG THIS IS AWESOME" and another part of me says that they'll probably go for the most stupid options lorewise.

After "The End Times" of Warhammer Fantasy, this is pretty much a given.

Warhammer Fantasy used to be by far one of my favourite settings, far moreso than Warhammer 40k, so I'm pretty much bracing on leaving Warhammer behind completely by now.

 

So if 40k end times has a major chaos black crusade in it it means the chaos gods really got their act together, waging a war to end all things in both dimensions/universers/settings/ whatever. GO CHAOS!

 

Yeah reading about whats going on in the warhammer world now is pretty bleak and exiting. Marienburg is complete destroyed. Sigh. I'll miss the Suiddock...

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Sorry for the post spam, but this news has opened the floodgates in my imagination. :)

 

More things that could happen in the end times:

 

The Emperor is revealed to be Alpharius. (False Emperor, get it? :D)

 

Leeeeeeman Russ! He's back in the shape of a giant wolf. (Think squigoth/warhound size) Wolftime baby!

 

Abbadon FINALY conquers Cadia!

 

The fan theory that the Tyranids are actually FLEEING from something WORSE turns out to be correct.

 

Almost every single SM with the geneseed of Sanguinius succumbs to the black rage.

 

Lion El Jhonson wakes up on the Rock but is later killed by the daemon primarch Fulgrim. (he's still got it!)

 

Jagathai Khan leads an army of Eldar Harlequin on jetbikes out of the webway.

 

Every person wielding a (reforged) chaos/daemon weapon succumbs and falls to chaos. This includes Logan Grimnar and Marneus Calgar.

 

Wazdakka Gutsmek and 3 ork Nobs form Da foar bikerz of da Aporkalypse and start a Waaagh that will sweep from one end of the galaxy to the other.

 

The C'tan break free and are restored to their full power by the unwilling sacrifice of the necrons.

 

Ahriman finaly gets his hands on the secrets of the Black Library and ascends to godhood.

 

The (now) FIVE chaos gods do battle with the tyranid hive mind itself (in the shape of an enourmous hydra) in the warp. Highlights of the battle include: Slaanesh getting devoured by the hive hydra but bursting out of it's stomach, while Khorne cut's of the hydra's heads.

 

Nurgle and Isha get married!

Edited by Robin Graves

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I personally find aspects of the End Times material for Warhammer a little jarring, but on the whole it's clearly been a huge success, creating renewed interest in an arguably moribund line.

Given this success, there's going to be a temptation for GW to rush in and do something similar with 40k: a cataclysmic "End of the Imperium" style mega campaign. I think this should be approached with caution.

The lesson here is not "apocalypse = success."

The real lesson GW should learn from the End Times success is exactly the lesson they've already learned from the Horus Heresy line and, to a lesser extent, the Badab War books. That lesson is: if you have a large, well written, attractively presented and well supported narrative campaign spread over several large, high quality volumes and backed by works of fiction and beautiful miniatures...people will buy that stuff and enjoy it.

The End Times stuff isn't perfect: it comes across as the work of many hands, and it seems to be a bit too casual about sweeping away huge chunks of the setting beloved of many older fans ("Bye, Kislev, bye Marienburg, farewell Tilea, so long Elves as we know them..."), but it succeeds on the whole because it's big, the quality's consistently high and it's in a setting people had forgotten they loved.

Also there has to be that feeling of an ongoing campaign, a desire to see the next instalment: Tamurkhan was a lovely piece of work, for example, but I don't get the sense it resonated with fans as strongly as The End Times.

40k in my opinion doesn't need an End Times campaign: it needs dozens of high quality narrative campaigns like the Badab War, the Siege of Vraks etc over the next fifty years. 40k is in the end times already: I'd like GW to show us how we got here in loving detail.

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While it's sad to see some stuff go, i do like that GW doesn't pull punches like they did with storm of chaos or 13th black crusade.

 

Storm of chaos didn't really change anything, the chaos armies ignored the capital of Altdorf and went to Middenheim instead (lame!) and ended with the everchosen getting punked by valten and  grimgor. (totaly lame!)

 

And 13th black crusade gave the despoiler his fan nickname of Failbaddon, because he still hadn't conqured Cadia.

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Part of me says "OMG THIS IS AWESOME" and another part of me says that they'll probably go for the most stupid options lorewise.

After "The End Times" of Warhammer Fantasy, this is pretty much a given.

Warhammer Fantasy used to be by far one of my favourite settings, far moreso than Warhammer 40k, so I'm pretty much bracing on leaving Warhammer behind completely by now.

 

 

Anybody have the cliffnotes version of what this entailed?

 

 

GW pretty much DESTROYING the warhammer world. The chaos gods have decided they are trough d*cking around with it and team up to unleash the biggest chaos army ever. Nagash is back again, decides he'd rather have a world of death than a world of chaos and starts fighting back against chaos. He is joined by a who's who list of vampire/ Khemri special characters.

 

The witch king decides it's "now or never" and invades Ulthuan, The high elves get desperate and decide to wake up hate (as the KoRn song goes) and quite literally raise Khaine (elven god of murder) Leading to some high elves changing into rage zombies!

 

In the North, Kislev is just GONE. chaos wrecked it. The empire created a magical version of the great wall of china to stop Archaons chaos horde, so he sends another force to bypass the auric bastion and destroy Marienburg before marching straight up to frikkin Altdorf and wrecking the Imperial capital. Take note: this is suposed to be the smallest/weakest part of his massive chaos horde.

 

We are only 3 books far into this thing, people!

Edited by Robin Graves

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However it's GW, so whatever answer is the most grimdarktm is what they will likely go with.

 

I don't think this will be the case. I do not find anything about returning Primarchs to be "grimdark" - it is pretty much the exact opposite to me, with grittier, more natural heroes being overshadowed by the return of one or more Mary Sues who used to be cool specifically because they were dead and long gone, their deeds now subject to a glorified legend. Any sort of resurrection would, simply put, have comic book character and trivialise their original sacrifice.

 

lolgrimdark.jpg

 

It's a question of personal preferences, though. I'm sure there will be quite a lot of people who absolutely love stories like this. But whilst I technically like "living" settings that feel like they are dynamic and evolving (see Battletech), this "End Times" just sounds like a massive overreaction at best, and at worst blatant a attempt at bringing the apparent popularity of their 30k stuff into 40k, risking a split in their playerbase.

 

We'll see if these are the End Times for 40k as a narrative ... or the End Times for 40k as a game. :P

 

Still, even though I expect the setting to end up less interesting than what I'm used to, I am kind of curious how the details will eventually look like, and whether which armies will be changed in what way (maybe they'll finally squat the Sisters :P)

 

I always found the Space Wolves to be the most Mary-Sue chapter.  "We have all the strength of awesomeness of a Space Marine, but we're not a bunch of boring old battle-monks; we're PARTY VIKINGS!  Woooo!"

 

Also, werewolves. Don't forget the werewolves! It's super-edgy:lol:

 

40k in my opinion doesn't need an End Times campaign: it needs dozens of high quality narrative campaigns like the Badab War, the Siege of Vraks etc over the next fifty years. 40k is in the end times already: I'd like GW to show us how we got here in loving detail.

 

Never forget the Third War for Armageddon! And that wasn't just a bunch of adventure books published by another studio / subdivision, but an official global campaign with its own website, its own codex, and detailed reports and background in White Dwarf.

 

It pains me to think about why, oh why they didn't make stuff like that a regular feature. Surely it must have been considered a success? Even now, fans are talking about it, and the stories that came into existence as a result of the battles.

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Anybody read what Fgdsfg posted? 
 

[...]

Anyway, for now I feel like I can relax at least a bit:

http://graham-mcneill.com/#!/end-times-not-coming/
 

 

Or did you and you're assuming they are trying to cover up the rumors for the time being? Or just speculating SHOULD it ever happen, what would happen. ;)

 

If they ARE going to introduce some changes to the setting, they should do it very gradually, not some in-your-face final showdown between titans, and then everything exploding.

Edited by Gridash

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Personally, I'm assuming that they're a bit busy with the Fantasy End Times, and will get around to 40k End Times afterwards and that, obviously I think, it won't be ended/abandoned, but that they'll do it similarly to WHFB. His announcement being rumour control and making clear that they won't end the line or anything like that.

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Lynata, you're right about the Third War for Armageddon campaign, that was great. GW doesn't seem to have run campaigns like that in 40k since the 13th Black Crusade. It's supposition on my part, but I think that this might be because handing the fans the chance to, by their own battles, permanently interfere with the entire setting and thereby GW's intellectual property, was probably a bit of a step too far for them.

(Actually we're forgetting the pretty godawful Medusa V campaign here, thinking about it.)

It would be nice to see a new large interactive narrative campaign by GW again in the 40k setting: one with themed, campaign specific armies, (ie not EVERY army fighting over one planet-I'm looking at you, Medusa campaign) supporting rules and background, themed minis, updates and store-run battles that tie in to a global outcome based on those battles.

My main point is that a campaign like that can be great WITHOUT (ugh) bringing back the Primarchs, killing the Emperor, battles on Terra etc. The current setting WORKS, in my opinion, giving the freedom for decades of apocalyptic battles on the same grand scale as the end times stuff within the framework of existing 40k.

There are signs mainstream GW are interested in this approach for 40k, though. Look at Sanctus Reach and the new blood Angels campaign. I don't think the QUALITY of this stuff matches the Forgeworld campaign material or, to a lesser degree, the End Times stuff, but it's a step in the right direction. Now they just need to take their time (ie stop churning out 3 mediocre books a month and concentrate on 1 excellent and innovative book every month), make it narrative, make minis for it (in fact generally be a bit more like Forgeworld) and make the whole thing interactive with the fan base.

As for Graham McNeill's comments, yes, I know he's retracted them, but I do think that the very fact he's "musing" like that is slightly worrying. It suggests he doesn't really value the setting as is and thinks bringing back the Primarchs is a good idea. I personally think it's NOT a good idea, and risks killing the golden goose for GW.

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As one who thinks Space Marines, Primarchs and the 30k stuff to be the most dreadfully boring parts of the 40k setting, I do not look forward to such a move. In the best case scenario, they bring out new, huge models for Tyranids, Orks, Daemons, Necrons and others who can make for interesting modelling and conversions; in any realistic scenario they will release more Space Marines, vehicles for Space Marines and some sort of exo-skeleton for the Centurions.

Though, if the End Times are, in fact, not showing up, they'll still probably release more Space Marines.

Edited by Johkmil

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