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Corradus

So...umm...Force Push?

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I'm sure this has been talked to death already, but I can't find anything really definitive that hasn't been house ruled (which I will take if I have to, but I kinda prefer the writers to write the rules).

Does this game have a Force Push?  And if so, where do I find its rules?  And if not...hunh?  Also and if not, what do you think the best house rules would be for Force Push?  I am not looking to do a lot of damage with it, though Knockdown would be nice.

Thoughts?

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No, there is no official Force Push.

 

It seems pretty easy to accomplish with the Move power. Personally, I'd just make it a simple application. 1 Force point to activate the base power, 1 Force point to activate at least 1 Strength upgrade to get it up to the silhouette of the target (unless the target is a silhouette 0 creature), 1 Force point to activate Magnitude if more than one target is desired. If you don't want to do damage, you don't need the hurl control upgrade. I don't think you'd need the fine manipulation control upgrade just to flip them over. Then, if you're not up against mere minions, opposed Discipline vs whatever for the target (opposed by the most difficult target if multiple targets are selected) combined with the force power activation. Both must succeed in order for the check to succeed (see the sidebar on F&D p195 for resisting force power checks). If successful, instead of moving them around, just flip them over knocking them prone. If that's all you're doing, it seems pretty well within the scope of the power as written.

 

If you want to do damage along with it, invest in the hurl control upgrade and follow the rules there. For a standard sized silhouette 1 person, it'd do 10 damage. It doesn't specifically mention whether the target is knocked prone. So, against a minion, I'd just say it automatically also knocks the target prone. If there is an opposed check, I'd say spending 2 advantage would allow you to knock it prone (sort of like it had the knockdown quality).

 

Really, Force Push doesn't need to be its own thing since Move pretty much has it covered. Mechanically, it works more as grabbing them with the Move power and flipping them down prone, but narratively, it could be described as a wave of Force power or something to that effect that's more thematic to a "Force Push" if you wanted. There are others who have made more crunchy home-rules for Force Push (just search the forum; there are several), but I personally prefer to just roll with it and let the player describe what he's doing with his application of Move and assign difficulties then.

 

Here's a more involved house rule authored by whafrog if that's more what you're looking for: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/122026-force-push-peach/

Edited by Alatar1313

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I'm sure this has been talked to death already, but I can't find anything really definitive that hasn't been house ruled (which I will take if I have to, but I kinda prefer the writers to write the rules).

Does this game have a Force Push?  And if so, where do I find its rules?  And if not...hunh?  Also and if not, what do you think the best house rules would be for Force Push?  I am not looking to do a lot of damage with it, though Knockdown would be nice.

Thoughts?

 

You're supposed to use "Move", with the Control upgrade allowing you to throw things.  I can't say I like it *at all*, but it is sort of useable if you reinvent it every time.

 

Edit:  actually don't need the Control upgrade if you just want to push a target back.  But there are no "weapon qualities" like Knockdown associated with this usage.

Edited by whafrog

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Move works well. Another option that's been suggested before is to use bind and say you're pushing the enemy to the ground rather than holding them in place.

 

Yeah, neither option is called force push, but then you're not actually running around cutting stormtroopers in half with lightsabers either.

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This is disappointingly vague and requires everyone to create their own version of a remarkably standard effect.  It's kind of like saying "the game accounts for blasters...they do some damage, you figure out the rest".

 

I'd house rule it as follows:

First, if the Force user wants to just Move a target, that's not a Push.  Even if it's not contested, it's slow and not damaging.

Second, a Push should not be automatically damaging, it's a way to give the Force user tactical space.  Damaging uses should use the Control upgrade.

 

If the PC wants to Push, they only need the basic power, plus enough pips for Strength and Magnitude upgrades...ie:  if you only have one pip, the best you can do is bully an Ewok.

 

A Push's range is Short, regardless of any Range upgrades.

A Push may be contested by Athletics or Discipline.  If successful the target is moved away from the Force user one range band.  Advantages maybe spent to cause Strain, and Triumph may be spent to Knockdown or Disorient 1.

 

If a Force user has all four Magnitude upgrades, and they spend 2 pips on Magnitude, they can affect all targets in a 360 radius.

 

Rivals and Nemeses make their own check against the Force user's pool.  Minions don't make their check as a pool, but as individuals.  Even Obiwan in E1 was only pushing a single B1 droid around.

 

Thoughts?  Arguments? :)

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Good version but I expose a few questions Crowley... I mean whafrog XD

 

Without considering Force Unleashed and just focusing on canon, we have seen that unless you are a B1 droid, the max effect of a Push is knock you down.

I remember some cases where the impact into a wall let you "stunned". No medium range seems ok to me, seems that doesn't have too much range.

Area effect can be cool, and the possibility to resist (now allowed for minions, look at Pikes in the Dooku duel XD) with Athletics/Coordination or Discipline is ok.

 

Personally I believe that a trained Force user can always use Discipline against Force checks. That would be the reason why Palpatine or Anakin haven't tried to Bind Yoda or Anakin. Unless the powers especifies a precise "defense skill" of course.

 

Advantages for Strain damage, Knockdown or Disorient... I rethinked it. I have no questions XD

 

Awesome version mate :)

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I wonder why they didn't create something more easily recognizable as Force Push.  I guess they figured it could be inferred and worked around from Move or Bind.  Oh well, it's not that big a deal beyond the basic headscratching.

Thanks for the houserules guys, there's some good stuff here.  Much Obliged.

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Probably because XP. You can't have a separate power for everything when things cost XP like they do; they had to draw the line somewhere. They wanted a system where you get basic powers then customize and improve them with talents. But, because they wanted Force users to be able to accomplish a decent variety of things, they couldn't have 25 separate Force powers with various XP costs and talents. So, several things that seem like they should be discrete powers were melded under more general powers.

 

Now, as to why they didn't put in a talent with a Force Push theme under the Move power, that I don't know. I'd imagine it was a possibility for the tree, but they decided to drop it in favor of the other talents. Maybe they'll expand Force powers in later supplements.

Edited by Alatar1313

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FWIW, I've eventually come around to being somewhat glad there isn't a specific "Force Push" talent, but I do wish they had provided more concrete guidance on how to use the existing talents to accomplish it rather than forcing everyone to roll their own.  We don't need the Saga method of 50 Shades of Force Push, but some guidelines would have been welcome.

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Probably because XP. You can't have a separate power for everything when things cost XP like they do; they had to draw the line somewhere.

 

Now, as to why they didn't put in a talent with a Force Push theme under the Move power, that I don't know. I'd imagine it was a possibility for the tree, but they decided to drop it in favor of the other talents. Maybe they'll expand Force powers in later supplements.

They probably figured that players would generally be savvy enough to see the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade and narrate that as being "shoving the bad guys to the ground" after using Move to slam them into the ground.

 

Mechanically, it's the same result net result, with the defeated targets being described as pushed a meter or so back and to the ground in an undignified heap.  And since there's a Discipline skill check involved, that's a prime time for the player to get creative and make suggestions about any Advantages or Triumphs that resulted from their check result could have an impact on the target beyond the damage effects.

 

Unlike 3rd edition D&D, this system generally doesn't hold the hands of the players and GM through the game session, and leaves it up to them to determine how something would ultimately work in this system.

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[...] We don't need the Saga method of 50 Shades of Force Push, but some guidelines would have been welcome.

Quoted for truth.

 

I first got into Star Wars gaming in the Saga days (I am probably younger than some of you folks and also started gaming in a serious capacity later in my life). I invariably played force users in some capacity and when I first saw the suite of powers in Saga I could not understand why there were so many versions of the "move an object and deal damage" power.

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My understanding the hurl control upgrade acts like a combat check using the discipline skill, so by "force pushing" a humanoid target, it would be a silhouette 1 so that's 10 base damage with additional successes from the check adding to damage. 

 

How does triggering critical injuries work with this power? I'm thinking it would be like improvisational weapons and unarmed combat? 5 crit rating? 

 

Knockdown I guess could be handled with 2-3 advantage. 

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My understanding the hurl control upgrade acts like a combat check using the discipline skill, so by "force pushing" a humanoid target, it would be a silhouette 1 so that's 10 base damage with additional successes from the check adding to damage. 

 

How does triggering critical injuries work with this power? I'm thinking it would be like improvisational weapons and unarmed combat? 5 crit rating? 

 

Knockdown I guess could be handled with 2-3 advantage. 

That's generally been the consensus for those that agree with just using the Move power and not creating a whole new sub-system to make a push be a separate effect, treating it like an improvised weapon in terms of triggering a critical injury.

 

As for Knockdown, I'd put it at three Advantage, since you're effectively denying the target a maneuver (assuming you haven't taken them out of the fight just from the damage dealt) which can be a big deal to minions, as they can't take strain for additional maneuvers.  Unless they want to stay prone and thus be tempting targets for any melee-based combatants, like that Marauder with his vibro-weapon or the Jedi with his lightsaber (and could very well have been the same guy that Force pushed them a few moments ago).

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Unlike 3rd edition D&D, this system generally doesn't hold the hands of the players and GM through the game session, and leaves it up to them to determine how something would ultimately work in this system.

 

Clear and concise rules isn't "handholding", it's clear and concise rules.  If I wanted everything left up to me I'd write my own **** game and save myself the 60 bucks (plus fifteen for dice).  The Force, and what you can do with the Force isn't some obscurity or minor detail tacked onto the rest of the game, it forms a core tenet of the Lucas universe and any rules based on need to err on the side of explicit wherever possible, and I don't think it's that kindergarten of me or anyone else to ask for things to be spelled out in black letters about a pretty basic ability to Force users be they Jedi or otherwise.

That's not asking for my hand held and frankly I can do without your inference that it is.

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I personally would exchange a Strenght upgrade by a Control one to clarify Push.

 

No object bigger that a X-Wing or some type of Confederation vehicle (about 22.02 m) ever moved in SW canon. With 1 extra FP move 3 Sil instead 4 it's enough to me. I will change that upgrade for Control: Push. The rest of the power seems ok :)

Edited by Josep Maria

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Corradus,

Maybe you haven't noticed, but there's a lot of "empty space" left in the rules for this game, left there so that the GM and player can feel free to interpret what the final results of a given roll are.  Even the suggestions on how to spend Advantages, Threats, Triumph, and Despair results are simply that... suggestions.  I've had a chance to play in games run by the folks that designed this system, and they've had no problem tossing out the printed suggestions for player ideas on how to spend those.  Hell, determining the difficulty of a skill check is entirely at the GM's discretion with only the loosest of guidelines on how to go about doing so, and same goes with building NPCs.

 

As GM Chris of the Order 66 podcast noted during the EotE Beta, this system is very much an "indy game" in that it doesn't try to cover every single rules situation, and puts far more of the creative power in the hands of both the player and the GM.

 

It doesn't take a creative genius to make the figure out that Move's Control Upgrade + Strength Upgrade = pushing a person away with the Force to cause damage.  The rest is ultimately window dressing.  In that case, the rules are quite clear that's the combination you'd need to do a "Force push" without deliberately spelling it out, making it concise in the sense that they're not spending excess verbiage in spelling it out.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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<<Maybe you haven't noticed, but there's a lot of "empty space" left in the rules for this game, left there so that the GM and player can feel free to interpret what the final results of a given roll are.  Even the suggestions on how to spend Advantages, Threats, Triumph, and Despair results are simply that... suggestions.  I've had a chance to play in games run by the folks that designed this system, and they've had no problem tossing out the printed suggestions for player ideas on how to spend those.  Hell, determining the difficulty of a skill check is entirely at the GM's discretion with only the loosest of guidelines on how to go about doing so, and same goes with building NPCs.>>

Maybe you haven't noticed but all games are like that to one extent or another, the question is ultimately how much of the game you can allow to float in the aether and how much you need to spell out.  We understand that a collection of symbols is no more able to spell out a story's results that one or two numbers on a die.

But just as with numbers, we need to know what the symbols mean, and how much we're expected to spell out.  I don't think that's an unreasonable request of a set of writers.
 
<<As GM Chris of the Order 66 podcast noted during the EotE Beta, this system is very much an "indy game" in that it doesn't try to cover every single rules situation, and puts far more of the creative power in the hands of both the player and the GM.>>

Hate to break it to you, but low-mechanical rulesets are not the definition of an "indy game".  Indeed that term IMO doesn't apply to tabletop rpg's because of the nature of the business.  Wizards and Games Workshop are really the only companies that have a lot of big money behind them, everyone else is struggling to get by so, in effect, 90+ percent of the TT RPG business is "indy games".  That being the case, the term is essentially meaningless.

And something else that might come as a shock to you is that FF's Star Wars RPG's is/are not the first game not to even attempt to cover every single rule.  By the standards of 1980's or D20 Game Theory that may seem unlikely to you, but - again - if that's all you're focused on (and having worked with WotC in the past on Saga I can understand why you might be) you're missing the enormous panoply of games out there with low-mechanical systems that have populated the gaming landscape since the early 90's.  Indeed, almost from the minute the Berlin Wall came down people have been trying as hard as they can to make games with less crunch wherever possible.  That being what it is, the "creative power" you're talking about has not one **** thing to do with how crunch-heavy a game is.  How much creative power a game group has is a direct function of their aggregate creativity, intelligence, social cohesion and flexibility.  Which means such a group could make spellbinding, memorable stories out of everything from Powers and Perils (a defunct Math Textbook masquerading as an RPG in the1980's) to a Gin-Rummy hand.  Alternatively a game group without the traits I outlined could be lead to the perfect rules by the Archangel Micheal and a choir of heavenly souls and still run a stinkpickle of a game.  The rules only affect that insofar and inasmuch as some groups have preferences for less crunch and some for more.  Much as you may like this system and may think the Devs are wonderful people (and I am sure they are) they haven't found a recipe for magic beans or the holy grail.
 
<<It doesn't take a creative genius to make the figure out that Move's Control Upgrade + Strength Upgrade = pushing a person away with the Force to cause damage.  The rest is ultimately window dressing.  In that case, the rules are quite clear that's the combination you'd need to do a "Force push" without deliberately spelling it out, making it concise in the sense that they're not spending excess verbiage in spelling it out.>>

It doesn't take a creative genius to make an entire game with that logic.  But those of us who do other things for a living haven't usually the time to do it ourselves so we trade money for a written game.

The purpose of a rule is to help deliberately spell out how a game works.  That's all it's there for.  Asking that the rule be explicit is not "excessive verbiage" it is necessary clarification.  Force Push is something that appears in SW canon in a number of places, as such, it's pretty important as an aspect of what Force Users can do.  So, I don't think it's a big point of castigation nor does clarification shaming seem appropriate.  Some things in a game need to be spelled out, this was one of them, the Devs dropped the ball.  That's okay, we still love them, they've clarified, we wish they had done it right the first time, we're moving on now.

We don't need you to scold us for asking.
Edited by Corradus

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It doesn't take a creative genius to make the figure out that Move's Control Upgrade + Strength Upgrade = pushing a person away with the Force to cause damage.  The rest is ultimately window dressing.  In that case, the rules are quite clear that's the combination you'd need to do a "Force push" without deliberately spelling it out, making it concise in the sense that they're not spending excess verbiage in spelling it out.

 

This is the worst rationale.  We have 40 types of blasters, each with a little mechanical tweak, but we can't get a defined Force Push.  In the responses above, you and others are *still* hashing out the details, meaning what...?  Every table reinvents it every time it comes up?  That's fine for oddball uses of something, but not something as standard as a Force Push.

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This is the worst rationale.  We have 40 types of blasters, each with a little mechanical tweak, but we can't get a defined Force Push.  In the responses above, you and others are *still* hashing out the details, meaning what...?  Every table reinvents it every time it comes up?  That's fine for oddball uses of something, but not something as standard as a Force Push.

 

Yes, very much this.  Force Push isn't some little bit of esoterica, it's one of the first things a Force User learns to do.  Kinda needs a rule.

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It doesn't take a creative genius to make the figure out that Move's Control Upgrade + Strength Upgrade = pushing a person away with the Force to cause damage.  The rest is ultimately window dressing.  In that case, the rules are quite clear that's the combination you'd need to do a "Force push" without deliberately spelling it out, making it concise in the sense that they're not spending excess verbiage in spelling it out.

 

This is the worst rationale.  We have 40 types of blasters, each with a little mechanical tweak, but we can't get a defined Force Push.  In the responses above, you and others are *still* hashing out the details, meaning what...?  Every table reinvents it every time it comes up?  That's fine for oddball uses of something, but not something as standard as a Force Push.

 

 

To be fair, those 40 blasters involve two core books, three career books, and a setting book. I really think they're going to add extra stuff to the Force power trees with the F&D books, probably including Force Push. If they don't, then I agree with you. I mean, you could say they should have had it all along...but I would say that about Jedi and the rest of the Force powers as a whole. 

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To be fair, those 40 blasters involve two core books, three career books, and a setting book. I really think they're going to add extra stuff to the Force power trees with the F&D books, probably including Force Push. If they don't, then I agree with you. I mean, you could say they should have had it all along...but I would say that about Jedi and the rest of the Force powers as a whole. 

 

 

I really wouldn't expect some sort of bottom add-on to a force power (maybe similar to Signature Abilities) or an all-new force power. Move as-is really does everything a Force Push can be expected to do, and "Resisting Force Power Checks" text makes it particularly evident that Force Push is just a creative/narrative method of Move:

 

 

Likewise, an attempt to use Move to throw a character around a battlefield could be opposed by Resilience, as the defending character resists with his raw physical strength.

 

 

It's entirely possible that they'll add in a sentence into Move to mention Push as a fluff-type thing - but it's really not necessary. Everything's really there already in the rules.

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This is the worst rationale.  We have 40 types of blasters, each with a little mechanical tweak, but we can't get a defined Force Push.  In the responses above, you and others are *still* hashing out the details, meaning what...?  Every table reinvents it every time it comes up?  That's fine for oddball uses of something, but not something as standard as a Force Push.

Yes, very much this.  Force Push isn't some little bit of esoterica, it's one of the first things a Force User learns to do.  Kinda needs a rule.

It does have a rule. It's called using Move to hurl your opponents against walls or floors, or just moving them range bands.

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