Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Corellian Corvette

Vindicator-class Heavy Cruiser

Recommended Posts

110% what Corellian Corvette said.  I've liked that hull ever since the first time I saw an Interdictor cruiser in the old TIE Fighter PC game. So many EU ship designs over the years just didn't have that star wars feel to them, but this one and all it's variants and sister ships just felt like you could of seen them in the movies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love that flat sleek command briidge.

I think it doesnt carry ground troops, that gives it enough space for fighters. Modern aircraft carriers can carry around 100 planes, this ship is 2x bigger so 72 ties arent unresonable.

We will probably get 2 versions, one with 2 suadron other with 3 or 3 and 4.

It wil be probably similair to gladiator but long range oriented with red and blue dice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing working against the Vindicator is that it's a sort of jack-of-all-trades type ship, and those are a little harder to incorporate into a game like this. How do you make the Vindicator feel unique? 

 

Based on the releases for Armada so far, it seems like FFG is trying to introduce a little bit of the rock-paper-scissors dynamic you see in many popular RTS games, including Empire at War, from which FFG has already lifted the MC30 frigate, Assault Frigate Mk II, and kind of the Gladiator. The Vindicator isn't a rock, paper, or scissors, and that presents a design challenge.

 

For that reason I think we're more likely to see the Interdictor variant than a straight Vindicator, though I'll be thrilled to death if we do get the Vindicator and will buy several. I love the design.

 

Now that the game is out and we know basically how it works, what would we suggest for a Vindicator stat line? 3 speed, 6 hull, 2 shields all around?  Red and blue batteries?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing working against the Vindicator is that it's a sort of jack-of-all-trades type ship, and those are a little harder to incorporate into a game like this. How do you make the Vindicator feel unique? 

 

Based on the releases for Armada so far, it seems like FFG is trying to introduce a little bit of the rock-paper-scissors dynamic you see in many popular RTS games, including Empire at War, from which FFG has already lifted the MC30 frigate, Assault Frigate Mk II, and kind of the Gladiator. The Vindicator isn't a rock, paper, or scissors, and that presents a design challenge.

 

For that reason I think we're more likely to see the Interdictor variant than a straight Vindicator, though I'll be thrilled to death if we do get the Vindicator and will buy several. I love the design.

 

Now that the game is out and we know basically how it works, what would we suggest for a Vindicator stat line? 3 speed, 6 hull, 2 shields all around?  Red and blue batteries?  

 

Something close to Gladiator but long range oriented fallowing the logic that

Gladiator is cheaper and faster Vic I

Vindicator would be cheaper and faster Vic II

To make it more unique it can be given 2 aa dice and good squadron value at an expense of atack dice and shields thus making it a support ship more than a brawler. So far Both Gladiator and Raider have black dice, Emprie lacks small red/blue dice ship and since it seems FFG is stickign to triangles Vindicator is a good option.

 

 

Also those 2 are interesting and can share the same model.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Immobilizer_418_cruiser

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Enforcer-class_picket_cruiser

Picket cruiser utilizes space normally taken by gravity well generators for aditional generators powering weapons and shields making it a pretty strong combat ship.

Edited by Microscop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What should the hull points be though?  5 through 7 is our options, the raider is at 4, and the victory is at 8.  Not a lot of wiggle room.

 

Yeah, this is sort of what I was getting at. I think you're sort of locked in at 5 or 6 - the Gladiator is 5. The Vindicator is slightly longer than the Gladiator but seems less thick - so 5 or 6 seems about right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing working against the Vindicator is that it's a sort of jack-of-all-trades type ship, and those are a little harder to incorporate into a game like this. How do you make the Vindicator feel unique? 

 

Based on the releases for Armada so far, it seems like FFG is trying to introduce a little bit of the rock-paper-scissors dynamic you see in many popular RTS games, including Empire at War, from which FFG has already lifted the MC30 frigate, Assault Frigate Mk II, and kind of the Gladiator. The Vindicator isn't a rock, paper, or scissors, and that presents a design challenge.

 

Last year in X-Wing (especially after Wave 4) there was the idea that there was a rock<paper<scissors dynamic to the meta. There were those who questioned the paradigm, but with caveats I think it was there. Right now... not so sure.

 

But could you elaborate on how you see it emerging in Armada? It seems to me that a jack-of-all-trades ship might be a daring answer to a r<p<s scenario, because it makes your build more adaptive to the sorts of objectives that you might be faced with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

One thing working against the Vindicator is that it's a sort of jack-of-all-trades type ship, and those are a little harder to incorporate into a game like this. How do you make the Vindicator feel unique? 

 

Based on the releases for Armada so far, it seems like FFG is trying to introduce a little bit of the rock-paper-scissors dynamic you see in many popular RTS games, including Empire at War, from which FFG has already lifted the MC30 frigate, Assault Frigate Mk II, and kind of the Gladiator. The Vindicator isn't a rock, paper, or scissors, and that presents a design challenge.

 

Last year in X-Wing (especially after Wave 4) there was the idea that there was a rock<paper<scissors dynamic to the meta. There were those who questioned the paradigm, but with caveats I think it was there. Right now... not so sure.

 

But could you elaborate on how you see it emerging in Armada? It seems to me that a jack-of-all-trades ship might be a daring answer to a r<p<s scenario, because it makes your build more adaptive to the sorts of objectives that you might be faced with.

 

 

I agree that it would be a daring answer, I just think it would be a difficult answer, which is why I don't expect to see it happen. Or, if we do, not until a much later wave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing working against the Vindicator is that it's a sort of jack-of-all-trades type ship, and those are a little harder to incorporate into a game like this. How do you make the Vindicator feel unique? 

 

Based on the releases for Armada so far, it seems like FFG is trying to introduce a little bit of the rock-paper-scissors dynamic you see in many popular RTS games, including Empire at War, from which FFG has already lifted the MC30 frigate, Assault Frigate Mk II, and kind of the Gladiator. The Vindicator isn't a rock, paper, or scissors, and that presents a design challenge.

 

Last year in X-Wing (especially after Wave 4) there was the idea that there was a rock<paper<scissors dynamic to the meta. There were those who questioned the paradigm, but with caveats I think it was there. Right now... not so sure.

 

But could you elaborate on how you see it emerging in Armada? It seems to me that a jack-of-all-trades ship might be a daring answer to a r<p<s scenario, because it makes your build more adaptive to the sorts of objectives that you might be faced with.

 

I agree that it would be a daring answer, I just think it would be a difficult answer, which is why I don't expect to see it happen. Or, if we do, not until a much later wave.

 

Sure, but how do you feel the R<P<S model is one that describes the Armada meta as it is or will be in the near future? Right now I only see big lumbering ships, small maneuverable ships, and various fighters. How will combinations of these shape up into a R<P<S, especially when you bring the objectives into the mix?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because it looks really good!  And it feels like the child of the victory (and the victory is the child of the ISD).

 

Kinda feels like a tech tree approach? Also has a lot of legitimate variants.

 

Did I mention that it looks good?

 

Do you think it would be too much for both a Vindicator and Immobilizer to make up an Imperial wave together? I would love to see both of them...

 

I like to read this conversation about where a ship fits in with its stats and capabilities. I can understand the difficulty in finding a home for the ship's stats and cost in terms of tournament play. I mean, all we need to do is look at the generic X-wing and B-wing to see how similar cost versus stats offered has impacted those two ships. I think Alex Davy said in regards to X-wing on... either a Covenant interview or maybe the Scum and Villainy podcast (I forget!) that at the end of the day they just want for people to be able to play a fun game with Star Wars ships. I would love to particiapte in some Armada tournaments, but as someone who really wants to set aside a day with a few friends for massive fleet actions, I'm okay with similarities. I still play with X-wings at home just because I like how they look on the table, and I'm okay with not everything being top tier viable but I am coming from the perspective of absolutely not being top tier.

 

So I wouldn't mind if, for example, a Vindicator was too close to a Gladiator and one muscled out the other in high level play - I like the variations for variation's sake. I also think with the sheer amount of capital ships for them to draw from, there may be several instances to come where we are thinking "man, that is awfully close to what [some other ship] has going on..." But as an improvement to X-wing, they also have SO MANY variables to tweak here!

 

I ran way off subject... So, uh... Vindicator and Immobilizer in the same wave would look very cool, right? I would love to see them as a pair with the other small sized ships led by a couple of Victories and an Imperial-class as a flagship in a massive game. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In reference to the rock paper scissors mold, if the ISD actually remains capable of speed 3 at launch, that excites me for the long term health of Armada. The "big and strong should always equal slow and lumbering" paradigm needed to be broken early or I think the game could have suffered long term. There are far more creative ways to incorporate weaknesses and deficiencies to exploit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been wondering how difficult / expensive it would be to make modular ships. There's the Immobilizer/Vindicator, and the Imperial could fill in the hangar bay to become a Tector pretty easily. It seems like it would just be a matter of not gluing a couple pieces together, but I'm sure it is more complicated in reality.

I thought it would be awesome to have an Assault Frigate Mark 1 box with modular components allowing all six variants, three for each side... or four now and two more in the third faction box ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making modular ships isn't hard, it's just way outside of FFG's established business model. X-Wing and Armada are about pre-painted, pre-assembled ships. 

 

I personally would love to see a modular Vindicator/Interdictor but it would be quite a shift from the way FFG has always done things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making modular ships isn't hard, it's just way outside of FFG's established business model. X-Wing and Armada are about pre-painted, pre-assembled ships. 

 

I personally would love to see a modular Vindicator/Interdictor but it would be quite a shift from the way FFG has always done things.

 

Agreed.

 

So, if they go with just one, I hope they'll go with the stock Vindicator. That way we can create our own little modifications (grav well projectors shouldn't be too hard with putty).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, let's get back to trying to make a Vindicator that works in Armada.

 

Speed 3 - this seems the most logical choice, even though it's the same speed as the Gladiator and Imperial. 4 would be too fast, 2 too slow. So 3 it is.

Hull 6 - one more than the Gladiator, two fewer than the Victory. Seems about right. It actually matches the Rebel Assault Frigate...which seems a little weird as the AF is much bulkier, but I propose that the Vindicator have lighter shielding.

Shields 2/2/2/1 - lighter shielding than the Gladiator; much less than the Assault Frigate. Are we OK with this?

Command 2 - one less than the Gladiator, same as the Nebulon B.

Squadron 2 - about what you'd expect for a ship with (we think) about two squadrons' worth of fighters.

Engineering 3 - or should it be 2? Gladiator and Nebulon are both 3.

 

Tokens - brace, redirect, evade? What should the distribution be?

 

Weapons - most sources I can find describe the Vindicator as mounting light turbolasers, so I would suggest largely blue dice.

 

Special Rules: I was thinking about something like this - you get 7 points, which the player can distribute as he chooses across Command, Squadron, and Engineering, with a max of 5 in any one category and a minimum of 1. The problem with that is that Command 1 is actually pretty desirable, and also 5 Squadron or Engineering would be kinda weird on a ship that size. Maybe a max of 4 in any one category?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh, yeah.  Maybe a blue and black dice setup?

That would set it apart from the gladiator and victory.  Like 3 blue and 2 black in the front (stronger than gladiator, weaker than victory) or make a sequence of 1 red, 2 blue, and 3 black (or 1 black).

Then the sides would be something like 2 blue and 2 black, or one of each color again.

Rear would be a blue and black.

Heh, maybe that could be the difference between the vindi 1 and vindi 2.

One has more dice but only blue and black, and the other has all the dice, but only 1 or 2 of each color.

 

Or maybe it would go the route of the Victory 2 and not have any black, to distance itself from the Gladiator.

 

 

EDIT:  I just realized that the Raider is a Blue and Black attack dice ship... darn.

Edited by Corellian Corvette

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh, yeah.  Maybe a blue and black dice setup?

That would set it apart from the gladiator and victory.  Like 3 blue and 2 black in the front (stronger than gladiator, weaker than victory) or make a sequence of 1 red, 2 blue, and 3 black (or 1 black).

Then the sides would be something like 2 blue and 2 black, or one of each color again.

Rear would be a blue and black.

Heh, maybe that could be the difference between the vindi 1 and vindi 2.

One has more dice but only blue and black, and the other has all the dice, but only 1 or 2 of each color.

 

Or maybe it would go the route of the Victory 2 and not have any black, to distance itself from the Gladiator.

 

 

EDIT:  I just realized that the Raider is a Blue and Black attack dice ship... darn.

Black dice are missles which vindicator doesnt have.

Realisticly it would be 2 red 2 blue front (thats only 1 blue more than corvette!)

Also 2 blue anti squadron dice

 

About squadrons basic variant 2 but one of the variants can carry 72 fighters so 3-4 squadorn value on that one.

 

Overall this ships should be similiar to Gladiator but LONG RANGE oriented. Gladiator and Raider are short range atackers so this one would fill the range spot.

Edited by Microscop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the Vindicator class SD is what you would send to watch over regions that are relatively peaceful so there is no need for an ISD. This would mean that she would be tougher than a Gladiator and capable of dealing with "small to medium issues" and like the Glad's be able to serve as consorts to the ISD's, so this is how I see the Vindicator's:

 

Vindicator I class Star Destroyer

 

Hull = 6       Anti Squadron = 2 Blue     Command = 2,  Squadron = 2 Enginerring = 2

Defence Tokens = 1x Brace & 2x Redirect

Speed = 1(II), 2(-/II) 3(-/I/II)

                  Shields and weapons by Arc=

Fore        :      4                 2x Red, 2x Blue

Starboard:      2                 2x Blue, 1x Black

Port         :      2                 2x Blue, 1x Black

Aft           :      1                 2x Blue

 

 

As for the Venator's and there abnormally large fighter wings. look at what we know of the design of the Republic Fleet: Acclamator's are strictly Assualt Ships designed to deliver huge amounts of troops and equipment to a designated LZ and act as a command and control / support base. Victory's are designed to be the Battleships of the Fleet while the Gladiator's  were intended to be there consorts ( a Destroyer used to screen them). none of these ships deploy enough fitghters to protect against the  Seperatist's huge droid fighter wings. that's where the Venators come in. they can carry a limited amount of troops ( about what a Vic can) pack a lot of firepower (Vic packs a bit more then a Ven). but with the larger Hull (1137m to 900m) they have a much larger set of hanger facilities. that makes them a Fighter Carrier capable of providing fighter cover for her taskforce / battle group while being able to defender herself in the fighter rich environment of the Clone Wars ( yes I am stating the obvious).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still a working card, but here we go. I am working on a custom logo for the Gravity Well Generator upgrade card.

 

Immobilizer%20418%20working_zps2nymhvoz.

EXCUSE ME BUT

BLACK DICE ARE MISSLES

 

CHhange them to blue

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Black dice can be anything. Missiles just happen to be the current representation on available ships. The Immobilizer is armed with small scale quad lasers in large numbers. These are a short range weapon. Black dice are short range, Quad lasers are short range. The ship also did not get assigned a missile upgrade icon. The Ion Cannon upgraded version will have blue dice added. The Wave 2 Imperial-I Star Destroyer comes with black dice and we know it doesn't have missiles. ;)

Edited by Wes Janson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...