A-Wing Fix

[Sithborg 11,513]

And we aren't going to see the "swivel". It is far too cumbersome to create a rear arc on a ship that is already printed without one. That, and I have no idea where people are getting the swivel idea. I've never seen it implemented in any of the games I've played that featured the A-wing. 

 

Having played a 36pt ship with 2 atk, I think some have too high expectations. 

[EastCoast 1,350]

I owned the original Kenner A-Wing. The laser cannons did indeed rotate. The box even displayed the rotating laser cannons.  My guess is this is where "swivel" idea comes from.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

Oh, so it's about having to go up against turrets.

Like the Imperials have also been doing - with two dice - ever since Wave 2.

 

except, you know, with a lot more rolls given the price of the base Tie Fighter (& Howlrunner's unique ability when applicable)

 

Also not sure where this predominantly 2 dice imperial non-sense comes from. Aside from Tie Fighters, among the cheapest ships in the game and therefore the least affected by low quality attacks (high quantity), all the empire has are bombers (might see use because of mines which are 3 dice) and the Advanced, which is essentially considered the worst ship in the game because it's a 2 attack X-wing (or a really **** A-wing).

 

Interceptors, Firesprays, Shuttles, Defenders all have 3 dice and the Phantom packs a whopping 4.

 

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

Oh, so it's about having to go up against turrets.

Like the Imperials have also been doing - with two dice - ever since Wave 2.

 

except, you know, with a lot more rolls given the price of the base Tie Fighter (& Howlrunner's unique ability when applicable)

 

Also not sure where this predominantly 2 dice imperial non-sense comes from. Aside from Tie Fighters, among the cheapest ships in the game and therefore the least affected by low quality attacks (high quantity), all the empire has are bombers (might see use because of mines which are 3 dice) and the Advanced, which is essentially considered the worst ship in the game because it's a 2 attack X-wing (or a really **** A-wing).

 

Interceptors, Firesprays, Shuttles, Defenders all have 3 dice and the Phantom packs a whopping 4.

 

This is true. Since I don't do Defenders and Phantoms, or Interceptors or the Firespray much, my view is skewed on the matter. Still, I think 'predominantly' is valid statement, given that the cheap ships tend to be used a lot more than the expensive ones.

 

If we look at the worlds data, recently released courtesy of sozin, MajorJuggler, and everybody who helped out with that, the A-Wing saw 4.12% use. That's more than the Defender (2.57%), TIE Bomber (1.23%), Firespray (2.78%), or the Interceptor (3.81%). On the rebel side, it was also chosen more often than the E-Wing (1.95%), HWK (1.85%), or the Y-Wing (1.95%).  Oh, I forgot, the TIE Advanced (0.62%)!!

 

So, of the ships used (and I don't know if this is numbers or point-cost), 25.72 out of 43.41 (ie. 59.24%) had two dice on the Empire side. That's 'predominantly' in my book.

 

That also implies that on the to-be-fixed list, the A-Wing is not exactly at the top, especially when it just did get the fix in Rebel Aces.

 

Sure, the A-Wing is not the cheapest two-dice ship, but it has a terrific dial and Boost. It's a flanker in a meta that doesn't really reward flanking (except artificially though Outmaneuver) because of all the turrets. But that doesn't mean that it's the A-Wing that needs fixing. Something needs to deter turrets. From the Empire side, we've had to fear flankers, because until three days ago, we didn't have turrets. So, when not playing mirror games - such as the Founding Fathers and God (FFG) intended - flankers have been highly useful.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Mikael Hasselstein

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

As probably do not need fixing, just some article that nails their primary function and how to build lists that capitalize off of their unique capabilities.

 

As long as 2 dice stand, there will be better ships for killing them. Question is, do you take harder hitting but slower ships such as B-wings and support it with a flanker that can compensate for their snail'-pace or do you flood the field with the little buzzing buggers?

Edited November 29, 2014 by ficklegreendice

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

As probably do not need fixing, just some article that nails their primary function and how to build lists that capitalize off of their unique capabilities.

 

I would think that such an article would preempt people's enjoyment of figuring out the A-wing's roles for themselves. Furthermore, that role might just change as the meta shifts with Wave 5 and 6.

 

Right now, with a turret-heavy meta, it seems like the challenge is to deter the turrets. From my perspective, the TIE swarm used to be king, but they were briefly knocked from their pedestal over the summer with the Phantom, and the turret came up as a response to the Phantom. I would think that swarms remain a good thing to take against turret builds, and while there are flaws in the model, the Rock<Paper<Scissors of Turret<Phantom<Swarm is on many people's minds, thus reifying the model.

 

Maybe the next step is to do what Paul Heaver suggests, and to build squads that are diverse in their weaknesses, and thus squads that don't fit the mold of the three archetypes. (Of course, Fat Han lists are diverse, with the obese part of the list having one type of weakness, and the filler having another - Phantom lists tend to have ships with high agility, and the swarm is the swarm, all with the same type of defense.)

[Narcoleptic 304]

 

1. Quit complaining
2. Build a strong alpha-strike squad with Proton Rockets
3. Build a squad of aces using A-Wing Test Pilot and other upgrades

 

 

Enough said

[eagletsi111 1,113]

I'd like to see the System slot, because their fluff says they have it.      They were used with enhanced sensor and long range systems to strike quickly and run.    The used system slots for reconnaissance and were the first new technology equipped planes in the Rebel Army.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

I'd like to see the System slot, because their fluff says they have it.      They were used with enhanced sensor and long range systems to strike quickly and run.    The used system slots for reconnaissance and were the first new technology equipped planes in the Rebel Army.

 

I respect the lore as much as anyone - even so much that I refuse to call it fluff. That said, the lore lends certain units plot armor, whereas in our game the stuff has to remain balanced. FFG Has to think through all the implications of adding a systems slot to A-Wings.

[z0m4d 727]

Granted, you can get expensive on an A-Wing to make him a more capable flanker and/or deal more damage. That's where their strength lies: you can't kill what you can't hit. Auto-thrusters will make them more dodgy. A-Wings, with 2 hull and 2 shields are also a little more forgiving than Interceptors.

Btw there's nothing wrong with winning a match by 12 points. That's still an unmodified win.

It's worth expanding the above discussion point a bit since you bring up interceptors and the ships share quite a bit in common, especially in terms of roles in a squad. A-wings have always been more resilient and cheaper than interceptors. However, the interceptor has seen significantly more in competitive play than the A-wing. A-wings even have the option to TL+focus where interceptors have another movement option instead, but do we really think that the interceptor has seen more play because it can BR?

I think there's a lot of groupthink mindset that guides players' opinions, especially those that are more engaged in the community. Some tend to discount anything that doesn't work easily or has indirect application. The A-Wing can't joust. The A-Wing is too expensive to swarm. If those are the only two molds someone tries to fit it in, then sure, it's broken. But it's more than that if people are so closed and narrow minded.

The Interceptor does best as a single flanker with a crew that can take the enemy head on, but has the fire power to, if you're careful and lucky, to try a full squad of Ints. It's tougher to get effective with a squad of only A-Wings, but that doesn't mean it can't be done if harass the opponent from a distance and swoop in when you can do so safely. You can still field 6 Protoypes. I think the A-Wing really shines, though, when it's the ace supported by heavy hitters. The opponent will be more tempted to go after the 3 attack dice, 1 defense die B-Wings and ignore Gemmer, Jake, or Tycho.

The point is, there are legitimate options people are ignoring. I'm encouraging them to jump off the bandwagon.

Edited November 29, 2014 by z0m4d

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

Granted, you can get expensive on an A-Wing to make him a more capable flanker and/or deal more damage. That's where their strength lies: you can't kill what you can't hit. Auto-thrusters will make them more dodgy. A-Wings, with 2 hull and 2 shields are also a little more forgiving than Interceptors.

Btw there's nothing wrong with winning a match by 12 points. That's still an unmodified win.

It's worth expanding the above discussion point a bit since you bring up interceptors and the ships share quite a bit in common, especially in terms of roles in a squad. A-wings have always been more resilient and cheaper than interceptors. However, the interceptor has seen significantly more in competitive play than the A-wing. A-wings even have the option to TL+focus where interceptors have another movement option instead, but do we really think that the interceptor has seen more play because it can BR?

I think there's a lot of groupthink mindset that guides players' opinions, especially those that are more engaged in the community. Some tend to discount anything that doesn't work easily or has indirect application. The A-Wing can't joust. The A-Wing is too expensive to swarm. If those are the only two molds someone tries to fit it in, then sure, it's broken. But it's more than that if people are so closed and narrow minded.

The Interceptor does best as a single flanker with a crew that can take the enemy head on, but has the fire power to, if you're careful and lucky, to try a full squad of Ints. It's tougher to get effective with a squad of only A-Wings, but that doesn't mean it can't be done if harass the opponent from a distance and swoop in when you can do so safely. You can still field 6 Protoypes. I think the A-Wing really shines, though, when it's the ace supported by heavy hitters. The opponent will be more tempted to go after the 3 attack dice, 1 defense die B-Wings and ignore Gemmer, Jake, or Tycho.

The point is, there are legitimate options people are ignoring. I'm encouraging them to jump off the bandwagon.

 

We have been talking about the A-Wing's role as a flanker. I suggested that flanking is out of style because of the current dominance of the turret. Do you have other legitimate options that our groupthink is making us blind to?

[Hujoe Bigs 2,071]

Actually been enjoying Predator+Outmanuever Greens. They are 23 points but quite tanky and can dish out the hurt if left unattended. They kinda lose points against a decimator but that's the only ship that they don't really get much use of the outmanuever card on, everyone else makes it worth while.

Only thing I would like on an A-wing is a natural barrel roll.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Hujoe Bigs

[AlexW 2,902]

 

 

Oh, so it's about having to go up against turrets.

Like the Imperials have also been doing - with two dice - ever since Wave 2.

 

except, you know, with a lot more rolls given the price of the base Tie Fighter (& Howlrunner's unique ability when applicable)

 

Also not sure where this predominantly 2 dice imperial non-sense comes from. Aside from Tie Fighters, among the cheapest ships in the game and therefore the least affected by low quality attacks (high quantity), all the empire has are bombers (might see use because of mines which are 3 dice) and the Advanced, which is essentially considered the worst ship in the game because it's a 2 attack X-wing (or a really **** A-wing).

 

Interceptors, Firesprays, Shuttles, Defenders all have 3 dice and the Phantom packs a whopping 4.

 

This is true. Since I don't do Defenders and Phantoms, or Interceptors or the Firespray much, my view is skewed on the matter. Still, I think 'predominantly' is valid statement, given that the cheap ships tend to be used a lot more than the expensive ones.

 

If we look at the worlds data, recently released courtesy of sozin, MajorJuggler, and everybody who helped out with that, the A-Wing saw 4.12% use. That's more than the Defender (2.57%), TIE Bomber (1.23%), Firespray (2.78%), or the Interceptor (3.81%). On the rebel side, it was also chosen more often than the E-Wing (1.95%), HWK (1.85%), or the Y-Wing (1.95%).  Oh, I forgot, the TIE Advanced (0.62%)!!

 

So, of the ships used (and I don't know if this is numbers or point-cost), 25.72 out of 43.41 (ie. 59.24%) had two dice on the Empire side. That's 'predominantly' in my book.

 

That also implies that on the to-be-fixed list, the A-Wing is not exactly at the top, especially when it just did get the fix in Rebel Aces.

 

Sure, the A-Wing is not the cheapest two-dice ship, but it has a terrific dial and Boost. It's a flanker in a meta that doesn't really reward flanking (except artificially though Outmaneuver) because of all the turrets. But that doesn't mean that it's the A-Wing that needs fixing. Something needs to deter turrets. From the Empire side, we've had to fear flankers, because until three days ago, we didn't have turrets. So, when not playing mirror games - such as the Founding Fathers and God (FFG) intended - flankers have been highly useful.

Those are by ship numbers not points invested (otherwise I'd bet that the interceptor, defender, and firespray  would actually have seen more investment than the A-wing) or effectiveness (appearance in winning squads)  which would be more telling. Of the ships listed above that were used less than the A-Wing, the HWK, E-Wing, Interceptor, and Y-Wing all made an appearance in the top 32.

 

Also, people could bring whatever they wanted and anyone could attend, so usage shouldn't be confused with effectiveness, especially in such a large field.

Edited November 29, 2014 by AlexW

[AlexW 2,902]

To add, I'm not a fan of group think either, but I think it's a bit of a reach to imply that people just don't know how to fly an A-wing just yet. It's been out for some time and rebel aces have been spoiled for months. People have been eager to play a-Wings with the refit, so implying that players aren't skilled enough or willing to put in the time might be valid with some ship types but not the A-wing.

I'll also point out that, iirc, MajorJuggler actually gives a refit A-wing good jousting numbers and thought it might replace the Z, so there's more to it than that....

[z0m4d 727]

We have been talking about the A-Wing's role as a flanker. I suggested that flanking is out of style because of the current dominance of the turret. Do you have other legitimate options that our groupthink is making us blind to?

Yes. The turret is not a god. It's expensive for what it provides and is equipped on low agility ships that get chewed up. These are not new ideas. Six Protoypes have more health than 8 TIEs (given the shield's protection against crits), yet no one disputes a TIE swarm's counter to the "Almighty Turret". And unless the opponent has only turrets--again, overpriced--then a single ace A-Wing accompanying a crew of, say, X- or B-Wings, can simply avoid the turret and pick off other targets. Once auto-thrusters come out the golden turretrted cow will come down anyway. It'll still be viable, but people will stop worshipping and fearing it irrationally.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

My blah-blah

Those are by ship numbers not points invested or effectiveness, which would be more telling. Also, people could bring whatever they wanted, that doesn't say anything about how successful a ship it was.

 

That's true - the points invested will be forthcoming, but the success rate is already known.

 

It's quite true that the A-Wing was wiped from the top 32, but a large number of other ships were removed also. But it also only recently got the fix, and the full implications of that fix may not have fully percolated through the meta yet.

 

 

We have been talking about the A-Wing's role as a flanker. I suggested that flanking is out of style because of the current dominance of the turret. Do you have other legitimate options that our groupthink is making us blind to?

Yes. The turret is not a god. It's expensive for what it provides and is equipped on low agility ships that get chewed up. These are not new ideas. Six Protoypes have more health than 8 TIEs (given the shield's protection against crits), yet no one disputes a TIE swarm's counter to the "Almighty Turret". And unless the opponent has only turrets--again, overpriced--then a single ace A-Wing accompanying a crew of, say, X- or B-Wings, can simply avoid the turret and pick off other targets. Once auto-thrusters come out the golden turretrted cow will come down anyway. It'll still be viable, but people will stop worshipping and fearing it irrationally.

 

I would also say that an A-swarm would be great for staying within the Outrider donut and keeping it boxed in with blocks. However, that's not an A-Wing specific notion.

 

But what is your argument? What question would the points spent answer that the number taken wouldn't?

Edited November 29, 2014 by Mikael Hasselstein

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

 

Yes. The turret is not a god. It's expensive for what it provides and is equipped on low agility ships that get chewed up. These are not new ideas. Six Protoypes have more health than 8 TIEs (given the shield's protection against crits), yet no one disputes a TIE swarm's counter to the "Almighty Turret". And unless the opponent has only turrets--again, overpriced--then a single ace A-Wing accompanying a crew of, say, X- or B-Wings, can simply avoid the turret and pick off other targets. Once auto-thrusters come out the golden turretrted cow will come down anyway. It'll still be viable, but people will stop worshipping and fearing it irrationally.

 

 

Really not sure how people don't understand this yet

 

 

Look, I'm all for A-wings being viable, but they are not Tie Fighters

 

Tie Fighters come in larger quantities (i.e, more dice to shoot things with and more bodies to block things with) and have access to a force multiplier that can act across multiple ships. Prototype pilots might be more durable, but they're also pulling an extra 3 points per ship. A single character A-wing, meanwhile, is rolling half the dice that two academy pilots would. Sustained damage is not their forte, though Prot Rockets give them a nice burst option and might make them a nice "scalpel" to remove priority targets.

 

Also, on the topic of "simply avoiding the turret and picking off other targets," the turret is a 360 arc with a range that takes up most of the table. There is no simply avoiding anything unless it's Dash Render's Range 1 safe zone, which Jake is hilariously capable of exploiting. Taking down the fat bugger is another matter entirely, but he's largely immune to HLC fire in that circumstance. The Falcon, though, gives 0 ****.

Edited November 29, 2014 by ficklegreendice

[All Shields Forward 1,797]

And the A wing can fly circles around a tie. Stop comparing twenty four points of ties against seventeen points of A wing. Try running three A wings against four ties.

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

Yes. The turret is not a god. It's expensive for what it provides and is equipped on low agility ships that get chewed up. These are not new ideas. Six Protoypes have more health than 8 TIEs (given the shield's protection against crits), yet no one disputes a TIE swarm's counter to the "Almighty Turret". And unless the opponent has only turrets--again, overpriced--then a single ace A-Wing accompanying a crew of, say, X- or B-Wings, can simply avoid the turret and pick off other targets. Once auto-thrusters come out the golden turretrted cow will come down anyway. It'll still be viable, but people will stop worshipping and fearing it irrationally.

 

 

Really not sure how people don't understand this yet

 

Could you be more specific?

 

 

This thread seems to be devolving into competing accusations of not getting it or groupthink.

 

If you've privately unlocked the code of making the A-Wing viable, be silent about it and kick our asses around the table.

 

If you've got a bunch of A-Wings and you're getting your ass kicked at the table, tell us more about what you're flying against and perhaps we can offer some suggestions.

 

Otherwise, please see OP's point one.

[z0m4d 727]

 

Yes. The turret is not a god. It's expensive for what it provides and is equipped on low agility ships that get chewed up. These are not new ideas. Six Protoypes have more health than 8 TIEs (given the shield's protection against crits), yet no one disputes a TIE swarm's counter to the "Almighty Turret". And unless the opponent has only turrets--again, overpriced--then a single ace A-Wing accompanying a crew of, say, X- or B-Wings, can simply avoid the turret and pick off other targets. Once auto-thrusters come out the golden turretrted cow will come down anyway. It'll still be viable, but people will stop worshipping and fearing it irrationally.

 

I would also say that an A-swarm would be great for staying within the Outrider donut and keeping it boxed in with blocks. However, that's not an A-Wing specific notion.

 

But what is your argument? What question would the points spent answer that the number taken wouldn't?

My argument has always been that A-Wing is not broken, but appreciating and utilizing its role appropriately is more important than with many other ships.

 

Also, on the topic of "simply avoiding the turret and picking off other targets," the turret is a 360 arc with a range that takes up most of the table.

I'm going to throw the BS flag on that one.

[ficklegreendice 34,359]

And the A wing can fly circles around a tie. Stop comparing twenty four points of ties against seventeen points of A wing. Try running three A wings against four ties.

 

I couldn't care less how they preform against each other, I'm more interested in what they do for my squad.

 

In order to support my other ships, I want my fodder to be as cheap as possible. That means more dice, more bodies, and more points to spend on the other pilots. The Prototype pilot is objectively better than a single Academy, but is it worth the 3 points? In a vacuum, sure. In a squad, I personally say hell no and go for the PTL/Predator.

 

 

 

Perhaps a more established role can be found through examining popular builds? Hell, I'll start us off with some things I found worked.

 

1.) Jake (31 points)

*Test Pilot: V.I & P.T.L

*Proton Rockets

 

--> Generally how I run him. He's an anti-phantom scalpel that's a pain in the ass regardless of which side of the initiative I have (go first? no cloak. Go later? Gets to react to positioning). Run with 2 FCS Blues and Blount w/Ion, the play-style is to single out and mutilate the biggest threat in the enemy list early on and use the sustained damage from the Blues to over-take the crippled enemy squadron.

 

Can throw outmanuever instead of V.I to take him up to 33 points. Expensive, but has much greater sustained damage post-rockets and an Outmanuever Rocket does damage.

 

2.) Jake (28 points)

*Test Pilot: Outmanuever & P.T.L

*Refit

 

--> popular build that already has an article up on FFG (run with 3 FCS blues). A poor man's soontir, it capitalizes on Jake's hilarious mobility. At Range 1, which is not difficult to maintain, he hits very respectably and at a very reasonable cost. I prefer using his relatively cheap cost to bring along another big name pilot such as Keyan or Wedge or even Ethan (FCS + R7, accompanied by 3 bandits). Will try Jan Ors (HWK) one of these days.

 

3.) Gemmer (23)

*Test Pilot: Predator

*Refit

 

-->I laughed him off initially, but Gemmer is actually pretty incredible for his cost. Predator is the closest thing A-wings will ever get to a system slot (sustained damage output, action independent) and his ability makes him deceptively difficult to bring down, especially for poor swarms and other 2 attack ships (remember, you don't have to be within range 1 of your target, just any ship).

 

At 23 points, he competes with FCS Blues and the up-coming Goldie w/Ion & Title. He does less damage, but he's far less susceptible to a death by a thousand stings and he's, kinda obviously, far more maneuverable than Bs and Ys. Higher PS doesn't hurt, either.

 

 

Those are my positive experiences. Still havn't figured out the Proto-type + refit, since I end up just reaching for my trusty bandits for 3 less points (each) instead, so I'll leave it to someone else to sing their praises

Edited November 29, 2014 by ficklegreendice

[AlexW 2,902]

 

My blah-blah

Those are by ship numbers not points invested or effectiveness, which would be more telling. Also, people could bring whatever they wanted, that doesn't say anything about how successful a ship it was.

 

That's true - the points invested will be forthcoming, but the success rate is already known.

 

It's quite true that the A-Wing was wiped from the top 32, but a large number of other ships were removed also. But it also only recently got the fix, and the full implications of that fix may not have fully percolated through the meta yet.

 

 

We have been talking about the A-Wing's role as a flanker. I suggested that flanking is out of style because of the current dominance of the turret. Do you have other legitimate options that our groupthink is making us blind to?

Yes. The turret is not a god. It's expensive for what it provides and is equipped on low agility ships that get chewed up. These are not new ideas. Six Protoypes have more health than 8 TIEs (given the shield's protection against crits), yet no one disputes a TIE swarm's counter to the "Almighty Turret". And unless the opponent has only turrets--again, overpriced--then a single ace A-Wing accompanying a crew of, say, X- or B-Wings, can simply avoid the turret and pick off other targets. Once auto-thrusters come out the golden turretrted cow will come down anyway. It'll still be viable, but people will stop worshipping and fearing it irrationally.

 

I would also say that an A-swarm would be great for staying within the Outrider donut and keeping it boxed in with blocks. However, that's not an A-Wing specific notion.

 

But what is your argument? What question would the points spent answer that the number taken wouldn't?

 

 

Not sure if your last question is directed at me, but...

 

Percentage of points spent is going to give you a better idea of how valuable players actually think those ships are since ships have wildly different point values.  

 

Looking at it from just a number of ships standpoint puts the A-wing close the the Lambda and Phantom (all are around 4%). However, we know from the basic cost that it's likely that players invested twice as many points in the phantom, and I think that notion gives you a much better idea of how players actually value a ship rather than just the number of them.

 

I think after things are said and done, the Falcon is going to be where people put their money with maybe close to 50% of the points invested at Worlds going into falcons.

[All Shields Forward 1,797]

You were comparing them to each other so obviously you do at some level.

Prototypes exist for proton rockets. They have too much punch to ignore and force your opponent to change their plan.

Edited November 29, 2014 by All Shields Forward

[force kin 545]

I wish accuracy corrector wasn't a thing.

It should be a tie advanced only title, and then the a wing could have safely been given a sensor slot.

Farrel with ptl, daredevil, autotheaters and advanced sensors would tickle me pink.

[AlexW 2,902]

You were comparing them to each other so obviously you do at some level.

Prototypes exist for proton rockets. They have too much punch to ignore and force your opponent to change their plan.

 

I've found prototypes a relatively inefficient platform for proton rockets.    With PS 1 they are more readily avoidable than other ships and they can't have PTL or extra movement (like Jake/Tycho/Vader) in order to easily acquire a TL or boost into range after your opponent moves.  They also make for a very expensive prototype.  Just my experience, but something like a Green with outmaneuver more effective consistently at the same price range.   

Edited November 29, 2014 by AlexW