Problems understanding "Unorthodox Tactics"

[chicklewis 0]

 

-- Neutral --
Unorthodox Tactics
--------------------
Type: Conspiracy (1 copy)
Cost: 0
Struggles: TCAI
Game Text: Resolve the skill comparison at this conspiracy before any of its struggles occur. If you win this conspiracy before any struggles occur, you may choose which of its struggles resolve.
 

[Windopaene 0]

I have four success token on the story. I send a bunch of dudes. You send a bunch of dudes. I drop Tear gas and other stuff to lower your skill below mine. The story resolves. Skill happens first. I win the story. You have me beat on terror so we skip that. I have combat and arcane, so I allow those to occur, wounding one of your dudes and getting to ready one of mine.

 

Is that what you mean?

[PRODIGEE 0]

This is exactly like you said in my opinion, as there are no references to specifics icons struggles, nor restriction in the number of struggle you can lead.

[Dark Young 0]

I was looking at this card again today and created some additional confusion in my mind. If you "win this conspiracy" dosn't that end everything right there? Why/when would any other struggles occur/resolve? My understanding is that as soon as a story/conspiracy is won the winner gets to choose wether or not to resolve the cards special ability and then it is removed to the players won story pile.

Isn't this just like when winning with the investigation struggle? As soon as that fifth success token hits the field, the story is done, it does not THEN proceed to the skill struggle.

[TheProfessor 4]

I think this card is telling you that if the winner chooses, they may continue to resolve struggles even though ordinarily you would not.

[Dark Young 0]

TheProfessor said:

I think this card is telling you that if the winner chooses, they may continue to resolve struggles even though ordinarily you would not.

I agree that this is definitely the intent of the card. But I don't see that as how the card reads v. the base rules of the game.  In order for the card to work they way it's intended to work I think it'd have to say something like:

"Resolve the skill comparison at this conspiracy before any of its struggles occur. If the active player would win the story, before any stuggles occur, you may choose which of it struggles resolve."

I also added the little bit about the active player because.... technically can't the active player be the only one to gain a success token from the skill comparison anyway?

 

[JgzMan 401]

If I were to read the card, I would interpert it simply that you may choose any or all of the four struggles to resolve. The reason to do this, would be the oppertunity to make enemy characters insane or place wounds on them, without allowing the opponent the oppertunity to do the same.

 

As an example, if I am winning the Terror struggle, and losing all the others, I will choose to resolve the Terror struggle and make one of the opposing characters insane. I will choose not to resolve any of the other struggles, because I would not benefit.

[PRODIGEE 0]

Well, Dark Young, I think that you need to refer to the only golden rule : What a card says is what the game plays...

In fact, this card is a big opportunity for the attacking player to drive a characterinsane/shoot/ready a character or place a Succes token on pagan hall

[Dark Young 0]

Well again I agree that whats stated above by others is what the card is "supposed" to do. I just don't think that it was worded correctly. Even by golden rule standards.

[Amante 0]

What I'm wondering most about is:

When it says "if you win this conspiracy", does it mean win it as in completing it with 5 tokens, or does it mean win as in win the skill check? If it's the latter, it certainly makes it a very interesting card.

[Carioz 0]

win = 5 tokens

succed = have more skill than the opponent (or more fast in a draw) while being the active player

[Dark Young 0]

Carioz said:

 

win = 5 tokens

succed = have more skill than the opponent (or more fast in a draw) while being the active player

 

 

Excuse me being a pain but, this is my point exactly. They used the wrong words for the effect they wanted to card to have. I think I'll always play it as meaning "succeed and would place a winning success token.. blah blah" as opposed to just win. Because otherwise the card dosn't do what it's intended to do/is pointless(other than you'd get to skip all struggles prior to skill check).

Does anyone agree with me that this effect is worded incorrectly? And that the way it's worded dosn't "work"? I feel like I may be the lone black goat in the woods.

[PRODIGEE 0]

Strange how I did'nt understand someone should understand it that way ...

Sorry I did'nt understand your question Dark Young ... Yes, Carioz is right saying there is a distinction between winning a story and succeding a struggle.

This card is a conspiracy which gives the possibility to add struggle resolution right after a story card was won, like Prof said .

Speaking about the Would clausis you're describing, I'd like to say that the wording is clear on this :t

♦Resolve the skill comparison at this conspiracy before any of its struggles occur.

This part is the one that occurs each time the conspiracy is to be committed at.

♦If you win this conspiracy before any struggles occur, you may choose which of its struggles resolve.

This part only occurs when the story is won succeeding the skill comparition... So you'll need to take care succeding this conpiracy carefully, in a way not to avois using it's cool aspect. I find it tactic enough not to be described as a bad worded card. May you would have prefer anoter effect, but this one is a tough one to understand and play (I don't know if I'm smart enough to play this one !!!)

I would'nt say it's a mistake. But there is a mistake one this card despite of everything, as every character are removed from a story once this one is resolved .

If you use the wording and refer to this part of the rule book

"After a story card has been won, and its effect executed or declined,
it is replaced by a new story card from the story deck. Thus, if
a story card has been won before it is fully resolved (usually by
having the fifth token placed from an investigation struggle), it is
replaced, and the resolution of that story is over.
Characters that were committed to a story that was won are no
longer considered committed to any story."

There would'nt be anymore character commited to a story which should be concerned by the late struggle ....

[Carioz 0]

@Dark Young: no problem at all, I was just pointing out what I did know.

But I do not know what the card was meant to do.

While I agree the card feels odd, I am not privy to the rationale behind the developer decision, and I can only read what it does in its text (and that's exactly why I get pissed a lot for badly written cards).

If I were to rule on it, and a clarification were not issued yet I'd use the "card text over rules" and use it as if it was written:

"Resolve the skill comparison at this conspiracy before any of its struggles occur. If you win this conspiracy before any struggles occur, do not replace it and resolve its struggles. You may choose which of its struggles resolve. Then replace the story".

But that's just my 2 cents.

 

[Dark Young 0]

Yes, the two posts above, Prodigee and Carioz, you've noted what I see is the problem. If the story is won, then according to the base rules and not altered by the card text as written, there isn't a chance for it special "choose which struggles to resolve" effect. As the characters would be removed and the story would be replaced as soon as it's "won".

[PRODIGEE 0]

In case we don't get a FAQ entry on this one, we may see later a card that may force your characters to stay committed on a won story card  ....

I'm kidding, but the wording Carioz used seems a lot more efficient to me !!

[Dadajef 0]

Remember the Golden rule, if the card contradicts rules, you must apply what the card says (p.3).

So the card say you can resolve a struggle of your choice, so do it !

[Dark Young 0]

Well, after all my ranting otherwise I think I found something in the rule book that makes me settle with how the card currently reads. It's still a little off but it's close enough for me to accept.

(Page 3) "When a player has accumulated five success tokens on his side of a story card, he wins that story. A player that wins three stories immediately wins the game!"

(Page 10)  "After a story card has been won and its effect executed (or declined), both players discard all success tokens that had been placed at that story."

I now see this as, placing the fifth success token indicates that the story is "won". After the story is "won" it's effect, if executed, must first be fully resolved (in this case, continuing with the icon struggles in their normal order, or variant selected). After its effect is fully executed and fully resolved, only then are success tokens removed and the story/conspiracy placed in the winners won story pile.

I apologize for any strain I may have placed on the other side of this cards supporters.

Though looking at the two quotes above, and based on how I now accept the rules to flow, one could argue as to when a player wins the game.... but thats an issue for another day.

[Dark Young 0]

I think this brings up another problem, could this story be "un-won" via Disrupts or Forced Response's when it goes back to resolve icon struggles?

**brain explodes**

I can't think of any cards off the top of my head that could cause a loss or transfer of success tokens via Disrupt or Forced Response's, but who knows what the future holds.