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Crabbok

Auto Thrusters - Death of X-Wing

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I'm really excited about Auto Thrusters.  The movement phase is hands down the most exciting part of the game for me.  I usually fly the highly mobile ships like A-Wings, E-Wings, Interceptors, Phantoms and B-Wings (I'm looking at you Farlander).  There is nothing quite like the feeling of completely out maneuvering your opponent, dancing out of their firing arcs while setting up the best angle for the shooting phase.  I don't think turrets really ruined that feeling but after playing around with Dash I felt that the movement phase was far less important or meaningful.  The only goal was to really not hit an obstacle or ship, of course getting out of firing arcs is important but somehow less so.  

 

Are Auto Thrusters game breaking?  Since they can only be used on 4 ships right now (A-Wing, Interceptor, Vyper and Aggressor) I don't see it having a massive effect on the most popular ships out there right now.  Rather they will help mitigate some of the more powerful ship builds out there.  Outrider HLC Dash is still going to hit like a truck, and you will only have 3 dice to roll in defence.  Chances are you might still end up taking a few hits.  The Falcon on the other hand may not end up one shotting an Interceptor anymore but Soontir still might end up dead on the next turn.

 

Thats all it really comes down to, not letting your expensive ship be blown away in a single turn by a turret or at range 3.  

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I think it boils down to more than that.  one of the best strategies to win is to rely as little as possible on the random-ness of dice, and count on the static parts of your list.  A Target Lock for example, helps to reduce the luck factor in attacking, C-3PO takes the luck out of defending with the Falcon.  Arc Dodging means you don't have to get shot at all.  

 

  Auto Thrusters is a way to help you effectively gain 1 guaranteed evade as a reward for flying well, and you CAN control how you fly.   I expect to see these things on the majority of lists next worlds. 

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  Auto Thrusters is a way to help you effectively gain 1 guaranteed evade as a reward for flying well, and you CAN control how you fly.   I expect to see these things on the majority of lists next worlds. 

I thought your first post was kind of a satire. But are you honestly expecting most lists to play autothrusters ? The card itself is not that crazy, and  it's not like han doesn't have PS9 and whoever gets the iniative can choose when to move for example. Or a Dash, etc. Because as i read you, your complain seems to be because large base ship turrets won't be "that useful" anymore. Something which is also unproven and there is nothing in the card that tells you otherwise. Just that they are not effective anymore if you are not facing your a target with Autothruster, something that glass cannons like interceptors desperatly needed against those ships.

Edited by DreadStar

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Well, in defense of Crabbok, autothrusters does effectively neuter the attack of turreted ships. The Falcon is essentially attack 2 and the Outrider 3 against an autothrustered intercepter. That is a healthy buff for very agile ships. That auto evade will work nicely to keep nimble ships in the game, turn after turn. Three intercepters will probably take 3-4 turns to burn down a Falcon. The ability of an intercepter to keep a pilot like Han in his sights is very high; they are the most maneuverable ship in the game. Once the Falcon is destroyed, it would be back to arc dodging against the less maneuverable Tala's or Blue's.

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I like how the StarViper looks [minus the bad paint job, which I'll fix immediately] and I'll be getting at least 3 of them. It makes more sense to me visually than stuff like the Chiss Clawcraft or the Vong.

 

Shadows did have a fairly decent Star Wars feel in parts. The ship design was great in my opinion, and the plot integrated well with the movies—at least at that point of the EU. But it lost me where the characters played dress-up as 90's post-apocalypse cyberpunks bounty hunters, and got worse from there. Dash Rendar is impossibly one-dimensional; back then it seemed like every EU rogue was a Han Solo knockoff who was a promising student at the Imperial Academy but whose family member was killed by the Empire so they leave behind both their Imperial service and a previous life of crime to join the Rebellion and then half the time also became a Jedi. It really was like that in the late 90's, and it made it difficult to appreciate those cookie-cutter characters. 

 

Even worse was Xizor, who still seems to me nothing more than a goofy green clown that allegedly rivaled the Emperor in power and influence. No; you stop being Star Wars when you have a cartoon character that can out-bad the Emperor. Xizor is one notch above the level of Trioculus in my esteem, and one notch below Jar Jar Binks.

 

 

 

Tangents aside, can someone help me understand how a relatively massive craft like the StarViper has 3 agility? I can't even imagine something like that making the same kind of acrobatics as a TIE or A-Wing. This is a legitimate request, I'm open to explanations if there are any.

Dash totally did all those things when people ask him about them in bars, is how I look at it. You're no Luke Skywalker Han Solo, kid.

 

Xizor mostly rivaled Vader in power, which is a bit more believable (read Bounty Hunter Wars, it's a much better look at him, imo, than SotE).

 

The StarViper's wings are articulated S-foils, with maneuvering thrusters on the tips. They've got a HUGE range of motion (see http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081117221657/starwars/images/0/0f/Virago_schem.jpg), and it ends up being a really tiny target from various aspects.

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I do not get the E-Wing hate.

 

The shape of the nose section makes it looked, well, like a hooked nose. Not a beak, it doesn't taper like that, just a hooked nose.

 

The bottom is just flat. It looks like there was more ship there that got cut off. That looks bad and is a sign of lazy design work, the artist figured no one ever sees the bottom so why bother doing anything with it.

 

The main fuselage has too narrow an aspect ratio in a front view cross section. This is kind of the same complaint as people who don't like the Star Destroyers in Rebels. Basically the center of the craft should be widened by about 75% to balance the height.

 

The engines look like they were just glued on by some amateur miniature converter with no thought to overall aesthetics. this crops up in 40K frequently with people who think the big gun on a tank looks cool, so putting a second big gun on it will be twice as cool, with no thought on how to integrate the addition into the overall design. The engines literally look like they were not originally there but just big cylinders that were bolted on.

 

Plus, the engines are too large for their position, it unbalances the look of the wings.

 

The engines are also placed too closely to the guns. They are obviously separate components but they are crowded together there in the middle of the wing while the rest of the wing presents all this empty space.

 

Then, of course, there is the gun right above the canopy.

 

The design has a lot of potential, but it is just overall poorly executed. If I were going to fix it, I would move the upper gun back, there is no droid socket on the top so there is nothing getting in its way farther back. Move the engines from underneath the middle of the wing to the top of the wing and nestled up against the fuselage, but integrate them more fully so they aren't just cylinders but rather have the housing for the engines flow into the main body of the ship. That would balance the elements of the design more and simultaneously solve the issue with the aspect ration of the fuselage. then do something, almost anything, with the bottom of the ship. give it a curved surface, add a bulge once it gets to the wings, an instrumentation pod, a tiny second pair of wings, something to make the bottom not be a single flat panel from nose to tail.

 

All that said, the e-wing still looks more Star Wars-y than the Star Viper. The E-Wing is an obvious evolution of the X-Wing design, and that makes it more acceptable. I look at the Star Viper and I can't even figure out what I am looking at. It looks like a vehicle that the X-Men would have in comics with a bad writer (huh, huh, they are called X-Men, lets give them a plane shaped like an "X").

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I don't like that I'm being forced to buy two of a ship I want four of just be able to run two of them. And they said nothing bad would happen after Asmodee bought FFG.

I see what you did there. :P

 

All i want is for the modders to figure out a way to get the wings to fold down asap. Then ill be happy.

That doesn't look too difficult. They just fold flat back, right? I would think one good pin each across the top and bottom would make them work like "real". Seems like that's how they attach in the first place.

Star-Viper-600px.gif

 

Depending on how it's glued together, this could be a relatively simple conversion.

 

- H8

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I think it boils down to more than that.  one of the best strategies to win is to rely as little as possible on the random-ness of dice, and count on the static parts of your list.  A Target Lock for example, helps to reduce the luck factor in attacking, C-3PO takes the luck out of defending with the Falcon.  Arc Dodging means you don't have to get shot at all.  

 

  Auto Thrusters is a way to help you effectively gain 1 guaranteed evade as a reward for flying well, and you CAN control how you fly.   I expect to see these things on the majority of lists next worlds. 

Not quite correct.  If you roll eyeballs and don't have a focus token, then you still won't block anything since it needs to be a blank.  But yes I agree otherwise.  It greatly reduces the probability.

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  Auto Thrusters is a way to help you effectively gain 1 guaranteed evade as a reward for flying well, and you CAN control how you fly.   I expect to see these things on the majority of lists next worlds. 

I thought your first post was kind of a satire. But are you honestly expecting most lists to play autothrusters ? The card itself is not that crazy, and  it's not like han doesn't have PS9 and whoever gets the iniative can choose when to move for example. Or a Dash, etc. Because as i read you, your complain seems to be because large base ship turrets won't be "that useful" anymore. Something which is also unproven and there is nothing in the card that tells you otherwise. Just that they are not effective anymore if you are not facing your a target with Autothruster, something that glass cannons like interceptors desperatly needed against those ships.

 

 

 

I don't think I know exactly what you are saying, but yes, I do think we will see a TON of ships use autothrusters.  It is very strong against turrets, and even against normal ships it is going to help you at range 3, so that means every game you play, if you approach slowly, you will get a shot to use them very early on, saving at least 1 damage per ship, which is cheaper than a shield / hull upgrade and stealth device, and can get multiple uses.  Very cool, and it's on the mod slot which means it's an easy choice to take. 

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I think it boils down to more than that.  one of the best strategies to win is to rely as little as possible on the random-ness of dice, and count on the static parts of your list.  A Target Lock for example, helps to reduce the luck factor in attacking, C-3PO takes the luck out of defending with the Falcon.  Arc Dodging means you don't have to get shot at all.  

 

  Auto Thrusters is a way to help you effectively gain 1 guaranteed evade as a reward for flying well, and you CAN control how you fly.   I expect to see these things on the majority of lists next worlds. 

Not quite correct.  If you roll eyeballs and don't have a focus token, then you still won't block anything since it needs to be a blank.  But yes I agree otherwise.  It greatly reduces the probability.

 

Technically true, however I usually use special dice that only consist of blanks and donuts.  When I roll a donut we stop the game and eat. 

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I think it boils down to more than that.  one of the best strategies to win is to rely as little as possible on the random-ness of dice, and count on the static parts of your list.  A Target Lock for example, helps to reduce the luck factor in attacking, C-3PO takes the luck out of defending with the Falcon.  Arc Dodging means you don't have to get shot at all.  

 

  Auto Thrusters is a way to help you effectively gain 1 guaranteed evade as a reward for flying well, and you CAN control how you fly.   I expect to see these things on the majority of lists next worlds. 

Not quite correct.  If you roll eyeballs and don't have a focus token, then you still won't block anything since it needs to be a blank.  But yes I agree otherwise.  It greatly reduces the probability.

 

Technically true, however I usually use special dice that only consist of blanks and donuts.  When I roll a donut we stop the game and eat. 

 

Do those dice come with the donuts?  Where can I get some?

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Well, in defense of Crabbok, autothrusters does effectively neuter the attack of turreted ships. The Falcon is essentially attack 2 and the Outrider 3 against an autothrustered intercepter. That is a healthy buff for very agile ships. That auto evade will work nicely to keep nimble ships in the game, turn after turn. Three intercepters will probably take 3-4 turns to burn down a Falcon. The ability of an intercepter to keep a pilot like Han in his sights is very high; they are the most maneuverable ship in the game. Once the Falcon is destroyed, it would be back to arc dodging against the less maneuverable Tala's or Blue's.

 

Autothrusters will help against turrets, but they will require skill and a bit of finesse. It doesn't "neuter" turrets, it merely helps balance the scales a bit. Right now, ships that rely on arc dodging are doing quite poorly, as the Fear of a Fat Phantom has seen the rise of roughly a thousand turrets. 

 

While those 3 Squints are busy dealing with Han, the 3 Z-95s that Han brought will be busy picking apart the Squints. The Squints won't be outside the firing arc of those Headhunters, and it shouldn't be impossible for them to lay a trap for a player who brought a mono-list and is tunnel-visioning onto a single unit. 

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Yeah, turrets are still viable, but this does certainly help to balance the equation.   I think a turretted ship now has a far greater incentive to try and maneuver in such a way that puts the enemy ship in his/her primary firing arc, more like normal ships. 

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I don't think I know exactly what you are saying, but yes, I do think we will see a TON of ships use autothrusters.  It is very strong against turrets, and even against normal ships it is going to help you at range 3, so that means every game you play, if you approach slowly, you will get a shot to use them very early on, saving at least 1 damage per ship, which is cheaper than a shield / hull upgrade and stealth device, and can get multiple uses.  Very cool, and it's on the mod slot which means it's an easy choice to take. 

 

 

So, you expect to see a ton of A-wings, Interceptors, StarVipers, and IG-2000s? Because those are the only 4 ships that can take Autothrusters. I don't know the future, so we could very well get a few more ships with Boost this year. But, the fact that Autothrusters is limited to ships with Boost and is a mod so it can't be combined with Engine Upgrade, will inherently limit how much you see it. Sure, Fel will be flying around a lot. But I question how much more you will see A-wings, StarVipers, and Iggys. Yes, it is a good upgrade, but it is limited to what ships can take it. Even with Autothrusters, I'm not sold on the Starviper or IG-2000. 

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When I say "neuter," I mean reaching a level of balance between the two styles of craft. This is definitely achieved. By the way, Tala's will still have an uphill climb to land hits on a focus/evaded intercepter (assuming, of course, that the intercepters don't just blow the Tala's out of the sky to begin with).

 

I'm not sure there will be a lot of A-wings with autothruster. Most of those points end up being spent on EPTs and the aces available.

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When I say "neuter," I mean reaching a level of balance between the two styles of craft. This is definitely achieved. By the way, Tala's will still have an uphill climb to land hits on a focus/evaded intercepter (assuming, of course, that the intercepters don't just blow the Tala's out of the sky to begin with).

 

I'm not sure there will be a lot of A-wings with autothruster. Most of those points end up being spent on EPTs and the aces available.

Given this post, we seem to be in agreement. :) I was mislead by your use of the word "neuter", as it refers to the act of literally cutting off an animal's testicles. As a metaphor, it rather vividly brings to mind an impotent male.

As far as A-Wings, I'm not sold. It's a _good_ upgrade, but I'm not sure that's the best use of 2 points in a Rebel list.

Arvel + Intimidation completely nullifies Fat Han-- assuming you can get him to Boost into the right spot for Han to bump him. So for 1 point, you can put an Intel agent on a few ships. Ships that will _need_ some upgrades. Since Arvel _won't_ be our flanker, we don't need to spend the extra points on him.

I wonder how this will work on IG-2000. :)

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Well, in defense of Crabbok, autothrusters does effectively neuter the attack of turreted ships. The Falcon is essentially attack 2 and the Outrider 3 against an autothrustered intercepter. That is a healthy buff for very agile ships. That auto evade will work nicely to keep nimble ships in the game, turn after turn. Three intercepters will probably take 3-4 turns to burn down a Falcon. The ability of an intercepter to keep a pilot like Han in his sights is very high; they are the most maneuverable ship in the game. Once the Falcon is destroyed, it would be back to arc dodging against the less maneuverable Tala's or Blue's.

Not entirely true.

If you have a focus to spend on defense and you're not in range 1-2 of front arc, auto thrusters effectively reduces the turret's attack by 1 AND reduces your agility by 1.

If you don't have a focus token and you roll all eyeballs and evades, you wasted 2 pts.

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Arvel + Intimidation completely nullifies Fat Han

 

Anything with Intimidation does that. I'm sure there's another EPT or Dual EPT ship that'll have an easier time latching on.

 

If you don't have a focus token and you roll all eyeballs and evades, you wasted 2 pts.

 

If you roll an evade after guessing 0 you didn't waste 3 points on 3PO. It's not as if it's discard on use.

Edited by TIE Pilot

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