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Sonofscathach

Why can't Misdirect be on par with Stealth Fields?

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in many ways Misdirect is better than a stealth field. Dress in an imperial officer uniform. Make your self invisible to the guys close to you. the guys far away just see an officer walking down the road and can't tell the reactions of those close to him. And can't tell you don't belong.  And since those close to him do not react in alarm no one is alarmed. Walk right into the facility. 

Misdirect requires you to think outside of the box. A Stealth field requires good dice rolls or you are screwed. and really you should use both in a similar fashion.

You act like what you want is an I win button that requires no thought or creativity.  

Edited by Daeglan

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To only other poster with actual play test experience of Misdirect. How many characters did you use it against? Did the GM doctor the numbers of witnesses to help your power out? Twice it has ended in calamity for one of my play test groups.

I've used it on 2-4 rivals (using the magnitude upgrade) at once, one rival and one nemesis a few times, and I've used it on minion groups of variable size (2-6 minions). (both my characters with Misdirect only have Force Rating 1). No doctoring required, though I had to use the dark side a few times :)

Edit: I've never had the occasion to run from a mob of people, but if I did, I'd probably not want to openly use the Force in such a blatant manner. I'd probably ask for an Athletics or Stealth roll to temporality outrun or hide from the mob at large, then use Misdirect (and hope for a double pip result on the Force die!) on any minion groups (up to 4) that came looking for me. That's still a pretty sizeable crowd, no?

Edited by awayputurwpn

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The only fix I feel is 99% necessary is switch Presence with Cunning for the Magnitude upgrade. This would be more useful and internally coherent with Shroud and Now You See Me talents.

Right now, the only character of our playing group who could reliably misdirect a whole bunch of folks is our Twi'Lek Makashi Duelist/Niman Disciple who acts as party face. But his character wouldn't do that in-universe. It would be more appropriate for the Cunning-based Sentinel career.

Edited by BarbeChenue

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The only fix I feel is 99% necessary is switch Presence with Cunning for the Magnitude upgrade. This would be more useful and internally coherent with Shroud and Now You See Me talents.

Right now, the only character of our playing group who could reliably misdirect a whole bunch of folks is our Twi'Lek Makashi Duelist/Niman Disciple who acts as party face. But his character wouldn't do that in-universe. It would be more appropriate for the Cunning-based Sentinel career.

I disagree, Presence is an appropriate skill as the ability affects the person's literal presence. Whether by making them ultra-scary (watch me turn into a Rancor, fellas!), wearing a new face (Let me walk through this base as a Moff with my team as my "personal" escort!), simply making them invisible ("hey guard, a prisoner escaped, come in here and look!"), not to mention other effects, Misdirect's relation to Presence is fitting, as the user needs to be a person familiar with how appearances affect people.

 

I think the real problem is that too many people think that Misdirect is simply the "Force-stealth" power, when its so much more.

Edited by ImperialSpy

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But then again, Stealth is Agility-based while Deception and Skulduggery are cunning-based (as well as, fittingly, Streetwise and especially Perception). The Presence-based skills are Charm, Leadership, Cool and Negociation. None of them are based on the idea of "misdirection" in any way. Plus Shroud and Now You See Me, as mentionned earlier.

 

I understand that intuitively we can link Presence with D&D's Charisma stat, which was related to Disguise and Bluff (incl. acting), and at first reading that's how I took it. But the more I think of it, everything in the ruleset seems to point towards Cunning for these purposes instead. Presence just isn't Charisma. D&D had/has 3 mental and 3 physical stats, and EotE/AoR/F&D have fusionned Strength and Constitution and added Cunning (Intellect being very clone to Intelligence, Willpower to Wisdom (minus Survival and Perception), and Presence being Charisma (without the Bluff and Disguise). To exist on it's own, Cunning cannot be deprived of its significance IMHO.

 

Also, from a "thematic" POV, Sentinels:Shadows/Shien Disciples/Artisans are all supposed to be "Core Worlders" in theme, quite tech-savvy and streetwise, and subtle enough to avoid unwanted attention. Sure they can be social, but social can be Willpower or Cunning, not just Presence. The whole point of the Shadows spec is about not being noticed in urban contexts and versus (for ex.) Imperials or Dark Side Adepts looking for them, including (Bluffing)Deception and doing illusions with Misdirect, but also disarming Security with Skulduggery and Computer.

 

Finally, from a "balance" POV, Sentinels already rely on Intelligence a lot (Computer, Mechanics for slicing and crafting), plus Cunning for a lot of Talents, and quite a bit of Agility for Stealth and Coordination. Given that Brawn can be useful to almost anyone, that leaves us with only two stats that can be left at 1 or 2 (let's face it, Characteristic are strong, but scarce), either Willpower or Presence. Since Discipline is all around a useful skill, and it's Willpower-based, and Shien Disciples are big strain consumers, what with their (Improved) Reflect being through the roof, it's not as if you were going to just drop Willpower. So having Presence be a key stat is neither required, nor a "balancing factor". Like we used to say back in the days, it's just "MAD" (Multiple Attribute Dependency).

 

YMMV, but since this is still a Beta, and the only time I've publicly given feedback since it started, I'm ok if people disagree, that's kind of the point. :)

Edited by BarbeChenue

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I'm not interested in powers replacing skills. I don't want a repeat of Saga where practically every book had a new ability "Force [blank]' where blank is some skill that you now replace with "Use the Force" to use it. Powers are meant to enhance or allow for imaginative outside the box use. Which they do. They are not meant to be all encompassing replacements. As was already stated, if you want to go unnoticed you should be using Stealth with applicable mentioned talents and/or enhancement with Misdirect. It is not supposed to replace or usurp Stealth with its ability. What the Misdirect power, and other Force powers, are supposed to do is allow players to come up with imaginative and fun uses.

 

And my biggest point with Palpatine and all his clones and comics and whatever is that none of it matters. All those mediums give their characters, both heroes and villains, whatever ability moves the plot along in the most entertaining way. In canon alone Palpatine was a master of several Force powers, a master lightsaber duelist, strategist, politician, and much more that is attributed to him. And he still went out as punk in the end because that what the script called for.

 

Misdirect is not invisibility. Get over it or adapt it for your own game to what you want. But I think it is pretty clear that your issues are not other people's issues.

You are entitled to an opinion but you cannot pick and choose which literature about Palatine you want to keep. If a player has the comics are you going to suppress his or her opinion?

My point is that the comics, SWTOR, KOTOR and the some extent the films hint that Misdirect can work as a flesh camouflage or stealth field. Since the game is about being on the run from the Empire in its default form, I wanted a way to steer my group from stealing a bunch of black ops equipment just to feel "safe". It doesn't help when Imperial Intelligence and Rebel Spies both upstage them with this equipment.

Still no cases of the number of npcs pushing the limit. Maybe as your groups XP increases this will occur.

I'm glad some people agree that Cunning is fairer on XP for jedi. Maybe they could choose the higher of Presence or Cunning. I still feel an all out difficulty 5 cloak or illusion for the cost of committing 2 force dice and taking strain every minute is not too much to ask as an ultimate mastery force talent.

1 Strain per minute or turn if in combat?

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Misdirect is not Stealth. The skill Stealth is Stealth. Force Stealth is the ability to hide a Force-sensitive's alignment, ability to use the Force, or their presence from other Force-sensitives. This is done taking the Shroud talent or giving it to an NPC.  Force Cloak (or Camoflage or Concealment) is done through the use of Stealth and applicable talents like Sleight of Mind (a Force talent) or Master of Shadows. Making people forget about you? Now You See Me Force and/or Indistinguishable talents. Misdirect and Influence are both Force abilities that affect the mind. They are abilities that affect one or a few, but not many. They are branches of the same tree. Misdirect is not a a stealth field. A high Stealth skill and applicable talents are a stealth field. With no equipment to maintain or worry about fizzing out on you. Misdirect can enhance or support a Stealth skill, but not replace it. And its not an Invisibility cloak.

 

I already suggested this, but I'll do it again.

 

Control Upgrade: When making a Stealth check, the Force user may roll a Misdirect power check as part of his dice pool. He may spend Force pips to gain successes or advantages (user's choice) on the check.

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