Why can't Misdirect be on par with Stealth Fields?

[Sonofscathach 9]

I love Force and Destiny but looking at the Shadow and a tooled up Rebel for AoR it is clear to see an operative with the Rebel Alliance is ALWAYS better at infiltration.

Misdirect is supposed to create illusions and invisibility but it is limited to how many people are affected even at max level. If we take the Advanced Flesh Camouflage Kit which costs 2500 credits or the Personal Stealth Field at 20,000 then we see that an operative with tools can out perform a Jedi Shadow any day. It is difficulty 5 to see through either the flesh camouflage kit or the stealth field.

Yes I know this is expensive gear, but I GM games where PCs may be tasked and lent gear for such tasks. The flesh camouflage kit could be taken by any starter character technically and it beats even advanced Misdirect which costs lots of XP due to the limits on people affected.

I would like to see a talent of Misdirect that throws an illusionary field around the Jedi. Yes I know it is a mind affect but Seek already counters it. Please don't pass beta with Misdirect being weaker than black ops equipment.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Sonofscathach

[Krieger22 2,462]

The Flesh Camouflage kit is limited in the sense that you actually have to disguise yourself as a specific someone, or at least a specific something. It doesn't simply give you a big bonus because you have it written down on your character sheet. And it's limited by the fact that in order for it to work at all, the people you're deceiving have to actually see you. If your plan is to remain unseen, the kit isn't doing you any good.

 

As for the Personal Stealth Field, for one thing it's hideously expensive. Oh, and they're also extremely unstable, and any threat or despair rolled while using one can mean that the stealth field flickers. No such issues with Misdirect.

 

Misdirect, on the other hand, might not be as impressive out of the gate as the two above items. However, it has the advantage of not costing any money, you always have it "with you" - it cannot be lost or taken away, and you can activate it at will.

 

I don't think either option is meant to be much better or worse than the other. It's just different ways of doing things, that's all.

[Donovan Morningfire 9,597]

Krieger22's right, in that while Misdirect doesn't start out all that great (effect lasts one round, only affects one person), as the Force user improves the power, it becomes more and more effective, such as Magnitude Upgrades to affect multiple people at once (particularly if you've got a high Presence score) or a Control Upgrade that invokes automatic Threat on combat checks that target you, a Control Upgrade to create actual illusions.  Plus there's the Control Upgrade that lets you commit two Force dice and pretty much make it impossible for the affected target or targets to spot you.

 

A Personal Stealth Field still has a chance of failing, and if you run across someone with a very high Perception score they could still succeed against that Formidable difficulty, especially if those purple dice generate far more Threat than they do failures.  Misdirect doesn't have that issue; you generate enough Force points on the power check, and the target or targets have zero chance to notice you.

 

There is also the matter that the Stealth Generator Belt as described in EotE is a rare and expensive piece of gear, and as such can be destroyed or taken away.  Misdirect doesn't have that problem, and by the time the target might realize your Force user has the ability to pull a Stealth Hi/Bye at will, it may well be too late for them to do anything about it.

 

There's also the added factor of FFG wanting to keep Force users from completely stealing the show in groups with mundane characters.  Any Force user can choose to take the Misdirect power, while not every mundane PC is going to have Stealth as an available career skill.  Each of the prior Star Wars RPGs had issues with Force users (especially Jedi) making the mundanes in the party feel less than useful, with WEG and Saga Edition being some of the biggest offenders; WEG was if the Jedi PC was played long enough (or the GM was very free with XP awards) while Saga Edition's issue was with how skill check bonuses scaled vs. NPC defense scores.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Donovan Morningfire

[vodswyld 34]

I also want to point something out, tho it makes me feel very power gamery.... Nothing says you can't use a stealth field generator and Misdirect at the same time. Plus Misdirect is not just about stealth. The power of Illusion has so many possible uses. Which makes sense that a specialized piece of equipment will be a touch better than the very very general Power in each comparison.... because any and all possible comparisons leave things that Illusion can do that no piece of gear can.

 

Oh.... and on a purely mechanical instance.... Misdirect is actually very similar and situationally superior to Stealth Fields.

 

*Both, to sight only, have the same effect. Perfect concealment, absolutely no chance of discovery.

 

*Misdirect does not work on Droids, and the Stealth Field does.

 

*Misdirect has a range of Short, and Stealth Field has a range of Line of Sight.

 

*Misdirect works on one person without upgrades, Stealth Field works on all.

 

*Misdirect works on all senses, Stealth Field is perfect on only Sight and sets all other perceptions difficulty at 5.

 

*Misdirect can be used on anything. Stealth Fields can not.

 

*Misdirect can be used as a perfect disguise. Stealth Fields can not.

 

*Misdirect can be used for entertaining shenanigans.

Edited November 23, 2014 by vodswyld

[vodswyld 34]

I am sorry, I have not been able to stop laughing for the last like half hour so wanted to share.

 

Most of these are way more funny done to marching stormtroopers in formation, but all can be applied to really any other target of opertainment.

 

Mouth full of peanutbutter.

Sudden lost of clothing, in pieces or as a whole.

Virtual Wedgie. Not really there, but still feels like it.

Peripheral appearance of Boss.

Peripheral appearance of deity.

Direct appearance of deity.

Loud dance music.

Disappearing or reversing weapon.

Object in hand becomes a bobblehead.

Person they are interacting with... displaced 2 feet.

Person they are interacting with... troll face.

Person nearby makes off cuff proposition "I want... (a puppy, to learn to dance, Cocaine, your sister, a Brazilian)" "Lets... (go home, bet on X, make out, X together, watch turtles.)" "What are (common thing)?" OR any other random warning about something impossible/improbable.

[Sonofscathach 9]

In my original post I already considered the expense of the kit and stealth field. Which are not a problem. You can use Duty to purchase them. 2500 can be got out the box.

I am thinking of mid game not starter game. If I sink 95 XP into Misdirect I am still not going to be able to follow the Spy (career) player (just assume for one minute that the players gave earnt/bought/stolen their gear) into the base guarded by over 50 stormtroopers since Misdirect won't work on crowds of such magnitudes whereas the field or the kit will. I have set Formidable difficulties in the past and I know the NPCs especially minions, will not see through the stealth equipment.

My point still stands. The Misdirect power even maxed out (also Cunning not Presence should be used as whatever illusion you do you are in essence lying) does not emulate what a Jedi Shadow could do. I am thinking SWTOR but also Obi Wan in Episode 4 going around the Death Star corridors. Also why is it the Shadow has a talent to make everyone forget them which for 20 or 25 XP (I forget which as my books aren't here) this is more effective than Misdirect which is limited to targets.

Could I not use Influence to make them believe something that is not true for 5 minutes? "I belong here" "I am an Imperial Officer". It kind of knocks the winds out of the sails of Misdirect. Yes I know Influence would require magnitudes but you could keep speaking and addressing different npcs.

For those that are still nay saying Misdirect being improved, would you oppose a mastery Misdirect that allowed a similar affect to the stealth field / flesh camouflage kit if it required committed force points and cost strain each minute? If so please explain why? As it would cost a lot of XP to get to and possible 2 or more Force. I don't see such a power being problematic. In fact it fits with the EU and the universe.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Sonofscathach

[mouthymerc 4,480]

I am thinking of mid game not starter game. If I sink 95 XP into Misdirect I am still not going to be able to follow the Spy (career) player (just assume for one minute that the players gave earnt/bought/stolen their gear) into the base guarded by over 50 stormtroopers since Misdirect won't work on crowds of such magnitudes whereas the field or the kit will.

Why do they need to affect the entire troop? Are they in front of them all at the same time? Anyone sneaking around is going to be avoiding enemies if at all possible, so it should only need to be used on a few people at once. I'm not really sure why you feel it needs to affect such a large group all at once.

 

Also the Misdirect power is more than changing your appearance or hiding yourself. It is also the ability to cast illusions to draw enemies away from you or to scare those enemies. All the powers are generally fairly utilitarian, unlike equipment which is generally useful in its specific task. Once the jig is up, your flesh camo is discovered or your stealth field fails, generally that equipment is going to be less useful or altogether useless. A power is more versatile and mutable.

[vodswyld 34]

For those that are still nay saying Misdirect being improved, would you oppose a mastery Misdirect that allowed a similar affect to the stealth field / flesh camouflage kit if it required committed force points and cost strain each minute? If so please explain why? As it would cost a lot of XP to get to and possible 2 or more Force. I don't see such a power being problematic. In fact it fits with the EU and the universe.

 

I don't have a problem with expanding the powers possibilities. My issue with your suggestion is more that it does not make sense to me. The difference between Misdirect and the Stealth Field is not the effect on the game, its the target they are used on. Misdirect is basically mind control. It is reaching out and twisting the parts of someones mind that process the world around them. A stealth field is actively changing the world. For the Force to do the same thing as a Stealth Field you would need to use it to bend light around yourself, or make some other physical effect that emulates the Stealth Field. My brief look through Wookiepedia and EotE core in regards to cloaks and stealth fields gives almost no useful information about how a personal unit would work. Which makes me think they work by ::waggles fingers:: magic. If they worked by bending light they would have a host of other drawbacks. If they were optical camouflage they would require full body armor like.... the optical camo armor mod. If they functioned like cloaks on starships they would be a mix of optical camo and a radiaton sink (Thank you wookiepedia). They could be holographic projectors, but then they would have a range you can walk inside of.

 

Long story short... Making the power match up with an item with no comprehensible way of functioning and exists for no apparent reason does not appeal to me.

[DeepEyes357 91]

A good player and good gm will be using misdirect to also gain advantage dice to stealth roles, which you can then narrate as "being invisible" or hard to see on your successes.

[Thebearisdriving 312]

Obi-wan never had to use misdirect on 50 troopers at once (that we know of, of course). He was still hiding, still skulking, and probably used it on 5 or so "targets" at a time.

Misdirect is remarkably powerful in many ways, but it's not as universally applicable as a stealth field. they occupy different space in the game.

And for the reasons Dono mentioned, misdirect can't be stolen, destroyed, or disabled on a despair, where as a stealth field can. A good shadow will probably have both, because back up plans save lives.

[Sonofscathach 9]

Wookiepedia may not show it but SWTOR does. Canon example of a Force User affecting masses at once? The Emperor who hid his dark side taint. And I have seen numerous sources claiming he hid his visage which physically showed his dark side corruption. Since F&D are our main FFG rules we must assume the Emperor would use Misdirect to hide his face.

I know Misdirect is mind affecting but so is Influence and that lasts for 5 minutes+. I know illusions can be cast on more than yourself but this self use is used in the EU and games more than has been admitted here. Is there anyone who feels a boosted ability at the end of the talent powers would be useful? This is a play test but all I see is people saying no and not critically evaluating each talent in the power. I will happily do that in another post of no one is brave enough to try. What would YOU change in Misdirect? How many of your jedi in your games have Misdirect? All I am saying is that my group has used it and it has failed them every single time. Not due to rolls, due to limits in the mechanics. One player now uses Influence instead. No one responded to my suggestion of Cunning rather than Presence.

Now I am interested in actual game experiences with the power from games as we have had a lot of theory craft. Theory craft is nice but I know the tech out classes this ability even though it is an XP sink. This is from actual play.

I would rather not have to house rule the power out of existence or replace the Mastery. I was hoping during the play test it could be enhanced and improved.

[GranSolo 350]

First, I think the Emperor would qualify as an NPC and therefore isn't necessarily built like a PC.

Second, i've seen people claim it's Sith alchemy too. Doesn't mean it has to be. From what I can see on the screen, Palpatine was scarred by his own lightning in a peculiar way that seemed to reveal his true nature. I don't have to know exactly why his lightning doesn't cause everybody to look like Freddy Krueger any more than I need to know that Midichlorians residing in human cells help the Jedi commune with the Force. (In fact, I prefer not to know these things.)

 

Also, comparing two pieces of high-end equipment with a Force power... I would rather doctor with the gear than with the Force power.

[mouthymerc 4,480]

Wookiepedia may not show it but SWTOR does. Canon example of a Force User affecting masses at once? The Emperor who hid his dark side taint. And I have seen numerous sources claiming he hid his visage which physically showed his dark side corruption. Since F&D are our main FFG rules we must assume the Emperor would use Misdirect to hide his face.

.

The emperor wore a hood to hide the damage done by that dastardly villain Mace Windu. After the Jedi were gone he didn't need to hide anything.

 

"Furthermore, Sidious was able to conceal his inner darkness from the Jedi for many years before allowing himself to be discovered. His power was so great that he managed to cloud the Jedi's vision, making it exceedingly difficult to predict future events."

 

Sidious in game terms is an NPC and does not follow the same rules as PCs nor can PCs always emulate NPC's abilities. Personally I would say this was an extension of his vast Forsee abilities on a grand scale, otherwise it was only affecting people on an individual basis. As a senetor he rarely dealt with Jedi in large groups, if at all.

 

Sidious had everything to make him the big baddy that he was. Force powers, lightsaber mastery, help at the right time, and anything else that would move the plot along. Until he didn't.

[vodswyld 34]

Wookiepedia may not show it but SWTOR does. Canon example of a Force User affecting masses at once? The Emperor who hid his dark side taint. And I have seen numerous sources claiming he hid his visage which physically showed his dark side corruption. Since F&D are our main FFG rules we must assume the Emperor would use Misdirect to hide his face.

I know Misdirect is mind affecting but so is Influence and that lasts for 5 minutes+. I know illusions can be cast on more than yourself but this self use is used in the EU and games more than has been admitted here. Is there anyone who feels a boosted ability at the end of the talent powers would be useful? This is a play test but all I see is people saying no and not critically evaluating each talent in the power. I will happily do that in another post of no one is brave enough to try. What would YOU change in Misdirect? How many of your jedi in your games have Misdirect? All I am saying is that my group has used it and it has failed them every single time. Not due to rolls, due to limits in the mechanics. One player now uses Influence instead. No one responded to my suggestion of Cunning rather than Presence.

Now I am interested in actual game experiences with the power from games as we have had a lot of theory craft. Theory craft is nice but I know the tech out classes this ability even though it is an XP sink. This is from actual play.

I would rather not have to house rule the power out of existence or replace the Mastery. I was hoping during the play test it could be enhanced and improved.

 

Ok, whoah, stop a sec. Bravery isn't a factor here. Just because I do not agree with you that does not make me or anyone else here a coward, and I would appreciate if we can stay away from name calling.

 

Now, there are two different sides to this problem. One is the mechanical one. At this point I say the mechanics fit the fluff of the power, but yes there is the possibilty for some to be expanded or changed and still meet with the fluff. The switch on the Magnitude Upgrades from Presence to Cunning does make sense. A case could be made for either, but Presence seems a much weaker case. One thing that might help is counting Minion Groups as a single target for the power. If that ends up being the case, the magnitude upgrades need to be toned down.

 

Now to the fluff issues, cause there are a few of them. As I said before, I have issues with the way that Stealth Fields work on a logical level. I already explained why. Without knowing how they work I have issues emulating it with a Force Power, or getting behind any kind of emulation of it. The only think I can pin down with their effects is that it seems to be a physical effect very close to the body. Misdirect is a mental effect. The eyes are still seeing, but the mind is not registering. Basically Misdirect tinkers with the part of your mind that deals with sensory input.  Influence is also a mind effecting power, but seems to tinker with a different part of the mind. I am not an authority on the EU, as I was never exposed to much of it, but from what I have seen it seems to work out.

 

So that whole long winded whatever comes down to.... What is the problem? Number of targets? Range?

 

Adjusting the number of targets is not a big deal. I say go for it, as long as its not "everyone". Adjusting the range out does not make sense since it already extends farther than the other mind effecting power (Influence).

[Sonofscathach 9]

It's about the number of targets.

Actually the Emperor was already disfigured. Mace Windu made it worse but but there is a comic that explains how Darth Sidious could have killed Mace from the start. The dramatics were to push Anakin into "rescuing" him and falling to the Dark Side. His disfigurement was a rouse to explain the Jedi betrayal. You will note his clones also looked like him without Maces help. It is DS taint.

Sidious mastered virtually every force power including the Misdirect power so the fact that he is an NPC doesn't really matter as we have the powers. Unleash works how Sidious used it, Influence works how Obi Wan used it. Misdirect does not work properly yet due to the limit on targets. I would prefer the number multiplying by Force Rating or x 10. Or a Short Range area affect of everyone.

As for Sith Alchemy, as it is not in the books yet, we have to go with what we have. Yes I am aware the stealth field and the flesh kit don't affect the mind but that is immaterial. Whether you resist with your Discipline or Vigilance the mechanics still favour the tech. One which is 2500 credits. Not hard to get.

So if we take KOTOR or SWTOR for a sec and consider Jedi Shadows and Imperial Agents / Scoundrels you'll note if convert them the none Force Users beat the Shadow totally at their own game. This has been proven in my game. Has anyone actually successfully has Misdirect work for infiltration? How many NPCs where there?

[vodswyld 34]

Except you are equating mechanics of two games with different limitations. KOTOR and SWTOR are computer games that are not meant to be stealth games. They are both basically action games. It is impossible to hide to break sight lines, senses like hearing are not taken into consideration. Enemies do not react to things in easy view because they are not in their "sight bubble", If you run far enough away from an enemy they forget about you can go back to where they were.

 

In F&D you can do things to even the odds or create distractions so you are not seen normally.And if you duck around a corner.... the enemies just come around the corner. Or call reinforcements. or start a search.

 

Now, a stealth based mundane character, once found, is pretty screwed. The enemy knows they are there, and there is nothing they can do about it. A Jedi Shadow, however, due to Indistinguishable and Now You See Me will be forgotten, but have just as many tools to avoid detection in the first place as the mundanes. Plus, again, as this is not a video game, the Jedi are able to use everything a normal stealther can do!

 

Stealth fields are necessary in the video games due to the nature and limitations of the video game. In the RPG they are unnecessary.

Edited November 26, 2014 by vodswyld

[mouthymerc 4,480]

It's about the number of targets.

 

How so? When was anyone using abilities on masses?

 

It is more about stealth. Any good infiltrater will probably want to delve into the Shadow tree, hence the reason it is one of the career's skills. Sleight of Mind, Master of Shadows, Indistinguishable, Shroud, these are the abilities you want if you are sneaking around and want to hide from many. Misdirect isn't meant to be all-encompasing. It is more of a one on one ability or one on few.

 

Maybe if you don't like it, add a later Control upgrade something like this:

 

When making a Stealth check, the Force user may roll a Misdirect power check as part of his dice pool. He may spend Force pips to gain successes or advantages (user's choice) on the check.

[eldath 201]

Frankly my thought is that no Force user should be able to use a Force power to achieve the same effect (or better) than someone with skill and/or equipment. Otherwise, what is the point of playing a mundane. The powers should be effective certainly but given that Force users can have multiple powers there is a danger that they could be better than every other member of the group.

E

[awayputurwpn 7,650]

Since F&D are our main FFG rules we must assume the Emperor would use Misdirect to hide his face.

 

Sorry, this is just a huge flaw in logic. We aren't forced to assume anything of the sort. You're dealing with a whole mess of canon discontinuity, Legends assumptions, a debate that was never really shored up when the EU was the EU (about whether Palpatine was using Sith alchemy to hide his disfigurement or whether he disfigured himself with his own redirected Force lightning), and game mechanics that don't have to apply to NPCs. 

 

We don't even know that Sidious was actually hiding any physical deformity. All we know is that he was hiding his own inner darkness from the Jedi.

[awayputurwpn 7,650]

On a more positive note, I am playing a Jedi character with the Misdirect power and I'm loving it so far. It's very versatile, and has so far helped with combat mechanics and with setting-appropriate humor.

[Sonofscathach 9]

I've already mentioned the clones. So I will not respond to comments refusing to accept the Emperor was tainted not scarred. Seriously check out the comics.

NPC powers is a cheap get out clause. The point remains that Misdirect should do more. PCs in an unfriendly city. Angry mob spot the jedi. The number of witnesses were in the hundreds. They could not use Misdirect to get away due to the number limit.

SWTOR is actually quite a social game with moral decisions, not just fighting. Not sure what the comment was about that.

Misdirect failed in another play test when a Jedi tried to escape an Imperial prison. Too many prisoners and guards for Misdirect to keep the jedi hidden.

To only other poster with actual play test experience of Misdirect. How many characters did you use it against? Did the GM doctor the numbers of witnesses to help your power out? Twice it has ended in calamity for one of my play test groups.

I would like to get back to my request for real play experience of Misdirect and it's limits when hiding or disgusting yourself.

[mouthymerc 4,480]

I've already mentioned the clones. So I will not respond to comments refusing to accept the Emperor was tainted not scarred. Seriously check out the comics.

 

Check out whatever you want. Most people will only accept canon as anything "official".

 

NPC powers is a cheap get out clause. The point remains that Misdirect should do more. PCs in an unfriendly city. Angry mob spot the jedi. The number of witnesses were in the hundreds. They could not use Misdirect to get away due to the number limit.

Misdirect failed in another play test when a Jedi tried to escape an Imperial prison. Too many prisoners and guards for Misdirect to keep the jedi hidden.

 

Should have been using Stealth not Misdirect.

[Sonofscathach 9]

 

I've already mentioned the clones. So I will not respond to comments refusing to accept the Emperor was tainted not scarred. Seriously check out the comics.

 

Check out whatever you want. Most people will only accept canon as anything "official".

 

NPC powers is a cheap get out clause. The point remains that Misdirect should do more. PCs in an unfriendly city. Angry mob spot the jedi. The number of witnesses were in the hundreds. They could not use Misdirect to get away due to the number limit.

Misdirect failed in another play test when a Jedi tried to escape an Imperial prison. Too many prisoners and guards for Misdirect to keep the jedi hidden.

 

Should have been using Stealth not Misdirect.

 

 

There is a part in each rule book which gives GM's the option of EU expanded universe. "Most people" (who are most people and when were you elected to speak for them?) can do what they want and accept canon or not. Does that make Star Wars Rebels canon? It won't stop both players and GMs using expanded universe. The section of the Rebellion in AoE uses Starkiller! Starkiller is from the Force Unleashed computer game, which is not technically canon. Not according to Disney. I don't see the developers copping out for writing about Starkiller.  

 

The Stealth skill does not make a PC disappear in front of a group of people who are looking at him, Misdirect *could* to a certain degree (limited by numbers, yes as a mental affect). Saying they should've used Stealth is like saying use Charm not Influence, use Medicine not Heal, Use Ranged Light not Unleash. In which case what is the point in having Force Powers in the first place? 

 

I will once again ask you to report on how your group used Misdirect and what limits or benefits you found. A specific instance would be nice. Otherwise we will be debating our opinions in circles forever more. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by Sonofscathach

[mouthymerc 4,480]

I'm not interested in powers replacing skills. I don't want a repeat of Saga where practically every book had a new ability "Force [blank]' where blank is some skill that you now replace with "Use the Force" to use it. Powers are meant to enhance or allow for imaginative outside the box use. Which they do. They are not meant to be all encompassing replacements. As was already stated, if you want to go unnoticed you should be using Stealth with applicable mentioned talents and/or enhancement with Misdirect. It is not supposed to replace or usurp Stealth with its ability. What the Misdirect power, and other Force powers, are supposed to do is allow players to come up with imaginative and fun uses.

 

And my biggest point with Palpatine and all his clones and comics and whatever is that none of it matters. All those mediums give their characters, both heroes and villains, whatever ability moves the plot along in the most entertaining way. In canon alone Palpatine was a master of several Force powers, a master lightsaber duelist, strategist, politician, and much more that is attributed to him. And he still went out as punk in the end because that what the script called for.

 

Misdirect is not invisibility. Get over it or adapt it for your own game to what you want. But I think it is pretty clear that your issues are not other people's issues.

[vodswyld 34]

Ok ok. You are just not going to let this go without some gameplay specifics. Keep in mind I am using the system in a fantasy setting, but generally using the rules as printed with the exception of the recent addition of the Meditation power I detailed elsewhere.

 

I do have one player with Misdirect. He has yet to ever use it for straight invisibility for himself, however he has also never gotten caught. 

 

Things he has used it for:

Hiding his weapon in combat so his opponent is off balance. (I blame Fate Stay/Night for this one)

Creating an illusionary dodging opponent.

Leading a drunk man into a group of guards so he could slip past.

He ducked around a corner and Force Jumped to a roof, then Misdirected one guard to see him going around a corner.

 

He does not have a single magnitude upgrade yet, but he does just fine using it on a single target. His use of confusion is sometimes awe inspiring.

Edited November 28, 2014 by vodswyld