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Captain Lackwit

STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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On 3/13/2018 at 12:23 AM, SabineKey said:

Ah, here we are.

While you have some good points, you are leaving out other details to support them. Examples being the Ghost being reassigned to Yavin and Mothma’s denial to continue operations to liberate Lothal, until basically coerced by Hera. Then the forces that the Alliance sent were wiped out, and the Lothal Rebels were left on their own. Once again, Jyn’s mission became an Alliance victory when their leadership actually sent General Merrick to join Raddus to aid the Rogue One crew. They actually attributed to victory with ships and lives. You keep saying insurgences can’t work like that, but that’s ignoring cells can go off the deep end and have to be removed from the whole for one reason or another. 

As far as I know, General Merrick entered the fight with Admiral Raddus (and at least Wookieepedia backs that assertion up), who left without informing High Command. The whole operation was a success because a low level operative knew the layout of the situation better than the leadership on Yavin. If Jyn hadn't done her own thing and followed the will of High Command, the Death Star plans would never have fallen into Alliance hands. If Raddus had not left without authorization, the plans would have never fallen into Alliance hands. Mothma actually allowed for Rebel forces to aide on Lothal, the combined decision for Scarriff was that no forces would be sent. If anything, that makes Lothal MORE of a Rebel operation than Scarriff.

A severe top-down leadership style has been shown time and time again to fail because it constricts commanders from being flexible to changing conditions on the battlefield and allows for a crippling of an army by taking out key leadership or communications infrastructure. In any case, success or defeat by forces of an organization or nation are attributed to those higher institutions regardless of whether the higher ups agreed with it or not. Marshall Paulus was strictly forbidden to surrender by a certain leader of Germany that might rile up the mods if mentioned, buy the eventual surrender of his forces is still considered to be a German defeat. The commander of the USS Monitor was repeatedly ordered by the U.S. Secretary of the Navy not to engage the CSS Merrimack but did so regardless. The tactical draw was a resounding strategic victory because it kept the blockade of Norfolk harbor from being broken and possibly coaxing the British into backing the CSA.

Point being? A leader can make decisions that are contrary to the orders of their superiors. Those superiors then have every right to disown them from their hierarchy (MacArthur) or they can accept them back with grudgingly open arms and the decisions of those leaders become the decisions of the superiors. GENERAL Syndulla could have been stripped of rank and kicked from the Rebellion. She was at the Battle of Scarriff. She and whatever part of the Ghost crew were still with her were not considered 'off the deep end' and so her decisions as a leader were justified by High Command.

I rope in Saw to show those who rebel against the Empire are not all a part of the Alliance, therefore not all actions against the Empire can be claimed by the Alliance. Calling oneself a Rebel doesn’t make one a part of the Alliance, nor does it mean that all your actions now belong to another. Remember, the Ghost crew were rebels before there was even a Rebel Alliance.  

This is an example of the Rebellion disowning the decisions of a leader. Saw's actions were beyond the ethical limits of the Rebellion and so they severed ties with him (and vice versa). This shows that the Rebellion has the will and the ability to act against rogue elements, something they didn't do with Hera and co. or the survivors of Scarriff. There's a line out there that wasn't crossed. Saw has no bearing on this conversation besides that point.

As for the formation of the Rebellion, what of it? Hera and the crew seem to have for the most part accepted commissions in the Alliance. Zeb is referred to as Captain, Hera a General, Ezra a Commander, Rex likely a Captain, Kanaan mentioned as a Commander, and Chopper as a Vice Tungus. Commissions such as these bring with them responsibilities. You've sworn your loyalty to the group that has given you such a rank. And given that these are officer ranks instead of enlisted, the expectations of loyalty are even more stringent than for the rank and file. Given that the Ghost crew still used these Alliance ranks even within the mission to Lothal, how can they identify themselves as generals and commanders but not be a part of the organization? Wouldn't it have been better just to go back to informal first name basis for the extent of the mission?

You also seem to be missing why the Rebel Alliance shouldn’t take credit for the victory on Lothal, which is that can’t repeat it. Yay, magical space whales and a Jedi drove the Empire off. That’s a miracle. And if you start promising miracles but can’t back ‘em up, you lose support. How does that sound like a good idea? 

Did the Rebels take credit for blowing up a planet destroying battle station, killing over 1 million Imperial personnel, including Grand Moff Tarkin, due to the space wizardry of a farm boy? Honestly, if they pat themselves on the back for that, they aren't worried about whether they can repeat it. The Rebellion is built on hope, not practicality. Sabine says that the Rebellion grew bolder from Lothal. Why would they grow bold if they all thought it was a one time event?

Your point about the member of the Ghost crew sacrificing himself is interesting as it wasn’t one of the Alliance operatives. It was Gregor, a Clone who joined up with Rex and Ezra, not the Alliance. He was there for friends. Do you have proof he was there for the Alliance? 

The Alliance saw fit to give a fighter and a medal to a farm boy who they knew for less than a day and a smuggler who was unwilling to act beyond saving his own skin and getting with the exception of one strafing run. I'd challenge you to make the point that Luke and Han weren't considered part of the Rebels in Star Wars as I'm sure George Lucas would like to have a word with you.

Actually WERE Luke and Han part of the Alliance during the Battle of Yavin? By your reckoning they apparently weren't. In fact, given that no Alliance personnel contributed to the successful strike on the exhaust port, doesn't that mean that the Battle of Yavin wasn't an Alliance victory, but by the unaffiliated freedom fighters of Tatooine? This is silly of course, but it DOES show that the Rebellion will pick up anybody they can get their hands on to handle the non-sensitive dirty work like any good insurgency would. Trust me, it wasn't Taliban regulars planting explosives in the pavement of Afghanistan, it was anybody who would accept the money waved in their face to dig a hole. Doesn't matter if it is loyalty or money; take up arms with the insurgency and you're one of them. There's no club cards handed out.

Some of the Ghost crew returning to The Alliance to there old titles is actually explained by a point you made yourself: Luke’s trip to Degobah. He went incommunicado for a bit on a private mission, but still had his old rank of commander. They can still be welcomed back from an action the Alliance approves of, but doesn’t take credit for.

Luke was on a pleasure trip. Lothal was strictly business. In fact, the Ghost team wouldn't have even returned to Lothal if not for Alliance involvement. There were not one but two attacks on the TIE Defender factory by Alliance forces with the Ghost crew being somewhat stranded on Lothal until such time as Hera could be rescued and then later to see the mission through for Kanaan's sake and the discovery of the portals. I assume that Hera was flying an Alliance X-Wing when she was crashing to Lothal's surface. At what point did they say 'screw it we're out of the Rebellion until this is done'? When did a hologram of Mon Mothma threaten Hera that she'd be out of the Alliance if she didn't return to Yavin immediately? The Ghost crew was a part of the Alliance. Extra missions like saving Hera may have been off the books, but when the Alliance assented to send the Spectres and reinforcements to attack Lothal, then the fight against the Empire on that planet became an Alliance one. Just because the Spectres were isolated and could not be further reinforced doesn't mean they suddenly weren't Alliance soldiers.

yeah, I do take Zeb’s remark at face value because a) again, the Alliance didn’t actually contribute to the victory, and b) because the lore group okayed this. Now, would more overt signs of this disconnect have been better? Absolutely. But this is what we got and this is what they went with. Explain to me how your opinion of this not being an Alliance victory outweighs the Rebels’ writers and the lore group? You can dislike it all you want, but that doesn’t give you authority beyond your own private considerations.

Once again, if the Spectres are part of the Alliance, how was the Alliance not part of the operation? As for Zeb's line, here's a few examples of what I am talking about:

Admiral Piett: If the Millennium Falcon went into light-speed, it'll be on the other side of the galaxy by now (such a trip would likely take at least half a day at the minimum)

Leia: I'd rather kiss a Wookiee (probably doesn't want to actually kiss a Wookiee).

Han: I can arrange that (probably doesn't want Chewie making out with the princess).

Vader: Apology accepted Captain Needa (didn't likely accept Needa's apology).

Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father (hoooooo boy).

These lines were accepted as part of the script of the original movies by Lucas himself. But they weren't meant to be taken literally. Just because the storyboard group accepted Zeb's line doesn't mean that the literal interpretation of it should be inferred. Zeb is a pessimist and a smart aleck. How many times have we heard him say something along the lines of 'Oh great!' when the Imperials attacked. Was he happy to see them? Zeb had his arms crossed and was in full on grump mode. You show me the telling sign that we wasn't just harrumphing about things he didn't like as he's done for 4 entire seasons?

Also, your assumption that the mission was at a stalemate isn’t actually accurate. If you have read the Thrawn novel, you will know that he has before found ways around shields, including the simple send in ground forces. He still had a whole blockaid full of soldiers, plus the soldiers in the dome who we knew were not idle, and even forceing their way back to the control center in the end. Yes, Ezra was on Thrawn’s bridge, but he was also surrounded with even more reinforcements on the way. Maybe he could take out Thrawn, maybe not. But he certainly couldn’t have taken out the other Star Destroyers, who were still fully manned and could start a ground assault. 

Maybe Thrawn would have, maybe he wouldn't have. How many times has the Rebels crew managed to tap dance around the stormtrooper garrisons of Imperial Star Destroyers? Thrawn himself was taken aback by the raising of the planetary shield which, if the armada was capable of disabling, would likely have done so. The Executor and supporting ships couldn't take down the shield generator of Hoth and Thrawn's ship couldn't take out an outdated (yet Sabine touched) generator protecting the Rebel base. He lost his pet Gollum on top of things. Ezra on the other hand had managed to take out THREE IMPERIAL GUARDS with accompanying stormtroopers while unarmed then fought his way up to the bridge. If his choice was to take Thrawn out rather than allow him to destroy the city instead of trying to make sure he was getting an octopus hug, Thrawn likely would have been down and out in seconds. For all his tactical wisdom, he flat out stated that he couldn't comprehend the Force. Thrawn lost to Ezra even while the latter was trying to keep him alive and subdued, how could Thrawn get better odds than that?

As for your historical point, i’ll give you that. But now we are getting more into the territory of what happened at Scarif rather than Lothal. 

Now your point about the Empire not being the same as the Rebel Alliance. True, however that doesn’t mean that examples from it can be removed. Remember, that while Vader is Sith, he is loyal to the Empire as it protects and serves the galaxy. Look back to the Attack of the Clones and his thoughts on how to better run the galaxy. Fast forward to the Revenge of the Sith where while turning evil, he still holds onto this concept that he is making the galaxy a better, safer place. We see glimpses of this even after he was full made into Vader, as referred to by Inspector Thanoth, who thought he was better for the Empire than the Emperor. Add to that while the Empire was the tool of the Sith, it was not solely that. We see plenty of Moffs, senators, and other members of the royal court using it for their own ends. This is on top of loyal officers who joined because they believed in the rhetoric. Vader’s actions were Sith, but not Imperial, because the Empire was more than the Sith. 

Vader isn't loyal to the Empire, he demands loyalty FROM the Empire. A man who is loyal to something wouldn't drive his capital ships through an asteroid field on the off chance of having a better chance at catching a light freighter. He wouldn't give dead stormtroopers piled in the hallways a brief glance before strolling down the hallway with no fracks given. The Empire wasn't more than the Sith because it literally couldn't survive without them. By your own admission the higher-ups used the same tactics as Sidious and Vader by using the Empire for their own means. The infighting and backstabbing in quests for power hit a breakwater in the form of a cold hearted killer in black armor and a robed man who always managed to make his enemies disappear despite looking crippled and weak. Those that were truly idealistic about the Empire's role were just all the more convenient tools because they didn't have to be given power in exchange for their obedience.

If you truly think that Vader had any real love for the Empire besides how it would advance his plan to someday rule the galaxy, read the Vader comic where Palpatine has to warn Vader that if he kills Imperial personnel for every infraction or plot he will someday rule and empire of the dead.

You keep referring to actual insurgent behavior, but also leave out vital parts of that process, such as vetting cells to make sure they aren’t moles, or self-destructive, which could lead to the downfall of the movement. Also, the leadership aren’t insurgence figures. They are politicians.  Virtuous ones at that. If you care to recall, it wasn’t Mothma or Organa that ordered Cassian to kill Galen Erso. They are going to be more strenuous about who can and can’t get in, especially after Saw. They can publize what other brave freedom fighters did, but not take credit when none is due.

Once again, they let in a farm boy and a smuggler based off of a day of fighting. Insurgency groups don't have the luxury to be picky recruiters. Losses aren't easily replaced and most people don't have the desire to risk their lives with little or no pay based off ideals. Why, I'm sure they'd go out of their way to break out a woman who had a criminal record the size of one of those walls of texts flying through space, a close relationship with said Saw, and a known capacity to thwart authority if it suited their purpose.

As for credit, the accomplishments of the individual always serve the group. A soldier who singlehandedly pulls off a miracle victory nets bragging rights for his unit, not himself. There's reasons why members of various military organizations, who have likely never done anything themselves, still take pride in whatever numbers or titles that are associated with their unit. The actions of those before them are connected by that same administrative distinction.

When Hera and co. joined the Alliance, their actions became those of the Alliance. If they took the Ghost on a killing spree of civilian ships, you know the Alliance would catch flak for it. That's why they got rid of Saw, to minimize the damage. How does that not work in reverse then, allowing the Alliance to reap the benefits of the heroism of its members?

Finally, I would like to revisit and expand upon a point from before. It appears that the lore group are following reasoning closer to mine than yours, therefore the liberation of Lothal is canon and is not intended to conflict with already established lore. My way explains how. How does your way solve the situation? 

Because a planetary action doesn't require spaceships striking from a hidden base and while a victory unto itself, is really no more a blow than the grand total of Star Destroyers, TIES, and stormtroopers that the Ghost crew has blown through over the course of the show. Scarif was a major victory, though a Pyrrhic one.  Lothal was a victory for the Rebels, but not one they could maintain. The longterm beneficiaries of the liberation of Lothal were the people of Lothal themselves, the Rebellion couldn't maximize their victory by setting up a base or open supply chains. So for the Rebellion proper, Lothal's liberation was a propaganda victory, not a material one like Scarif.

But the bottom line, and one that has not been adequately contradicted, is that between Scarif, Yavin, and Endor you see all the arguments being used here against Lothal being a Rebel operation coming into play. Deus ex critters, outsider resistance groups, loss of direct Alliance support, refusal by High Command to green light an operation, and huge victories that would be difficult to repeat. And yet all three of these battles were undeniably Alliance victories. The keystone of the counterargument is a line by a chronic curmudgeon. That is hardly a smoking gun compared to all the other evidence to the contrary.

 

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5 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

 

So if i’m getting your meaning right, Lothal isn’t counted as the first victory due to size and impact? If that is what you are going for, then possibly. Considering the events of the show and Rogue One (and smaller victories shown there) viewing the ANH scrawl referring to the first major victory over the Empire works.

There are still points I disagree with you on, I feel this is devolving into a back and forth that isn’t really convincing either side of anything. In the end, we’ll just have to see how future lore refers to the Liberation of Lothal as even Wookieepedia doesn’t refer to it as a Rebel Alliance victory, which just goes to show some more direct clarification is needed. 

Assuming I understood you correctly, you’ve provided a decent explanation of how to view the battle that works out with established canon, so I will accept it.

Thank you for this discussion and I do apologize if I got too heated.

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On 3/13/2018 at 2:13 PM, Ktan said:

 

The Hobbit is a jolly fairy tale-esque story. The Lord of the Ring is a turgid and monotonous story written like a historical catalogue. There's a reason that the former has pretty much universal appeal and even fans of Middle Earth find LotR to be pretty dull. (Tolkien had to stop reading it to his friends because they hated it that much. I've been THERE as a writer too.)

Are you kidding? The Lord of the Rings movies are far and away better than the Hobbit movies. Like LotR is one of my favorite movie series, and The Hobbit movies are among my "most disappointed in" movies. Now if you are just talking about the books, then I 100% agree. The Hobbit is one of my favorite fantasy books and the LotRs are just ok. That's part of the reason I feel so disappointed in the Hobbit movies. They made many changes that took away from the characters and story and added a bunch of crap that was worthless to the story. 

Edited by JJFDVORAK

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I'm talking about the books.

The films, I gather (not seen the Hobbit ones, been warned off them) interestingly enough have it the other way around, as you suggested.

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As with all things, YMMV. I think there's a lot to get lost in (in a good way) with LotR, it's just not "for me".

Edited by Ktan

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Can I ask what y’all thought of the Rebels series finale? I’m sure it was talked about somewhere in here, but I really don’t want to sift through 10-20 pages of arguments and discussion to find the opinions.

Personally, thought it was interesting. Ezra’s connection to living things has always been some unique when compared to other force wielders. With that said, while I don’t necessarily love how the Lothal Rebels won, it was almost a display of just how connected Ezra is to the creatures of Star Wars.

I also thought that showing where everyone went afterwards was interesting too, especially seeing that Sabin stayed on Lothal. While I understand why, it was still a bit strange. It was also nice to see Zeb show Kallus he hadn’t kill the Lassot. It showed that Zeb really had put his past with Kallus behind him, and that Kallus no longer has to live with what he thought he did. And I guess we can officially say the old man in RotJ is Rex.

 

Edited by sf1raptor

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10 minutes ago, sf1raptor said:

Can I ask what y’all thought of the Rebels series finale? I’m sure it was talked about somewhere in here, but I really don’t want to sift through 10-20 pages of arguments and discussion to find the opinions.

Personally, thought it was interesting. Ezra’s connection to living things has always been some unique when compared to other force wielders. With that said, while I don’t necessarily love how the Lothal Rebels won, it was almost a display of just how connected Ezra is to the creatures of Star Wars.

I also thought that showing where everyone went afterwards was interesting too, especially seeing that Sabin stayed on Lothal. While I understand why, it was still a bit strange. It was also nice to see Zeb show Kallus he hadn’t kill the Lassot. It showed that Zeb really had put his past with Kallus behind him, and that Kallus no longer has to live with what he thought he did. And I guess we can officially say the old man in RotJ is Rex.

 

I pretty much agree with your post. There are areas which could have used better explanation, but overall, I’m good with it. It will be interesting to see how they evolve the connection Ezra has with creatures in the future.

While i’m not sure how well it lines up with the timeline, I must admit i’m a sucker for reveal of Jacen Syndulla. Knowing that Hera still has something more than an addition to her Kalikori feels good. I would love if he popped up in something set in the sequel era as like a T-70 pilot. Heh, maybe even with Chopper as his Astro.

I’m very interested to see how the fate of Thrawn will play out. There are still some story threads from his book that could be explored directly with him.

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1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

I pretty much agree with your post. There are areas which could have used better explanation, but overall, I’m good with it. It will be interesting to see how they evolve the connection Ezra has with creatures in the future.

While i’m not sure how well it lines up with the timeline, I must admit i’m a sucker for reveal of Jacen Syndulla. Knowing that Hera still has something more than an addition to her Kalikori feels good. I would love if he popped up in something set in the sequel era as like a T-70 pilot. Heh, maybe even with Chopper as his Astro.

I’m very interested to see how the fate of Thrawn will play out. There are still some story threads from his book that could be explored directly with him.

I just wanna say that we can all expect to see Jacen take up dear old dad's ways. How, I can't be too sure about. But I can absolutely see it happening.

But here's a nutty idea for you guys. Say Jacen's like his dad, able to use the force. Say Jacen needs a teacher.

How harrowing would it be to see Jacen next to a young Ben Solo?

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11 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I just wanna say that we can all expect to see Jacen take up dear old dad's ways. How, I can't be too sure about. But I can absolutely see it happening.

But here's a nutty idea for you guys. Say Jacen's like his dad, able to use the force. Say Jacen needs a teacher.

How harrowing would it be to see Jacen next to a young Ben Solo?

Extremely harrowing. 

Now, we don’t know exactly when Luke started his temple up, so there could be room for some pretraining adventures for Jacen. But if he goes, there are two fates known for students there...

Both options lead to interesting storytelling points, though neither would really do my heart strings too much good.

There are a couple of explanations that could keep him out of Luke’s academy. I mean, by the time the temple is destroyed, he should be about 29-30 years old, so could already be invested in another line of heroing, like Leia was. Then there is the option of him being taught by Ahsoka or Ezra (depending on how the search goes). 

But yeah, if Jacen ends up befriending a young Ben, I’m gonna be on the edge of my seat. Hmm, maybe it would turn into an inverse of the relationship between the Legends’ Jacen and Ben duo?

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2 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

Extremely harrowing. 

Now, we don’t know exactly when Luke started his temple up, so there could be room for some pretraining adventures for Jacen. But if he goes, there are two fates known for students there...

Both options lead to interesting storytelling points, though neither would really do my heart strings too much good.

There are a couple of explanations that could keep him out of Luke’s academy. I mean, by the time the temple is destroyed, he should be about 29-30 years old, so could already be invested in another line of heroing, like Leia was. Then there is the option of him being taught by Ahsoka or Ezra (depending on how the search goes). 

But yeah, if Jacen ends up befriending a young Ben, I’m gonna be on the edge of my seat. Hmm, maybe it would turn into an inverse of the relationship between the Legends’ Jacen and Ben duo?

That's what I'm honest to god hoping for. That'd be GREAT.

 

And yeah, there is a few high chance Jacen gets taught by Ezra or Ahsoka. But they'll be away while Luke's doing his thing, so who knows. Ben could likely hurt somebody, maybe Jacen, and honest to Filoni, we might even see Snoke at some point. If Ben hurts Jacen, she exchanges words about the danger Ben presents, Luke will already know, and promise he'll do everything he can to keep Ben on the right path, that nothing will happen again.

Which we all know is incorrect.

After that incident, Jacen, like Ezra, still needs schooling. I mean look at his outfit- he's already shaping up to remind Hera of Ezra a bit. She'll be conflicted, but know "a better teacher".

That's how I see it playing out at least.

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22 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

That's what I'm honest to god hoping for. That'd be GREAT.

 

And yeah, there is a few high chance Jacen gets taught by Ezra or Ahsoka. But they'll be away while Luke's doing his thing, so who knows. Ben could likely hurt somebody, maybe Jacen, and honest to Filoni, we might even see Snoke at some point. If Ben hurts Jacen, she exchanges words about the danger Ben presents, Luke will already know, and promise he'll do everything he can to keep Ben on the right path, that nothing will happen again.

Which we all know is incorrect.

After that incident, Jacen, like Ezra, still needs schooling. I mean look at his outfit- he's already shaping up to remind Hera of Ezra a bit. She'll be conflicted, but know "a better teacher".

That's how I see it playing out at least.

That could work.

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3 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

Can I ask what y’all thought of the Rebels series finale? I’m sure it was talked about somewhere in here, but I really don’t want to sift through 10-20 pages of arguments and discussion to find the opinions.

Personally, thought it was interesting. Ezra’s connection to living things has always been some unique when compared to other force wielders. With that said, while I don’t necessarily love how the Lothal Rebels won, it was almost a display of just how connected Ezra is to the creatures of Star Wars.

On the edge of my seat from a pretty strong finish (though I was getting pretty **** tired of EVERYONE just THROWING Rukh and letting him survive time and time again, and the wolves were a little over-played). Anyway, I'm into it and Ezra's on the bridge and I'm wondering how in all butts are they gonna wrap this up.

Then someone starts in about "They just came in from hyperspace! They're destroying the fleet!"

I'm literally muttering to my family, "Please-don't-be-space-whales, please-don't-be-space-whales" and then the space whales appeared and I threw up my arms with a mighty howl of "MOTHERF___ER!!!" (to the delight of my twelve year old, who thinks swears (and [male genitalia] jokes) are just THE BEST). Kinda ruined the whole finale for me.

Since then I've heard some decent arguments about Ezra's connection to life and whatever, but this was just WAY too out of the blue, deus ex machina for me.

I did tear up a little when Ahsoka came back, though...

Edited by NotBatman

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1 minute ago, NotBatman said:

Since then I've heard some decent arguments about Ezra's connection to life and whatever, but this was just WAY too out of the blue, deus ex machina for me.

I can definitely agree with this. If we had been given a better indication that Ezra had been reaching out to them and setting up the signal with them, I’d feel better about it. 

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I've been thinking a bit about the Purrgil.   As noted, We don't know much about them, mainly how smart they are, how they communicate.   

What we DO know is they can get to absolutely huge sizes.   Think about how large the Purrgil who drag a Star Destroyer (and who ram it) are.   Star Destroyers seem to be very good against energy attacks, but physical damage is very much their achilles heel.

A Star Destroyer is also not a fully solid structure.   Also in Rebels we saw the engine room as being a very wide open area.  It seems much of them are hollow.   To me this seems to signify that a Star Destroyer is very much a “glass cannon” in many ways.    

It seems space combat in star wars has always been a close affair, with long range attacks being fairly useless due to shields, but as seen countless times, fast moving ships can inflict heavy damage and avoid capital ship weapons.

To me it seems a Star Destroyer will have amazing shields, but relies on countless TIEs to protect it from any ship passing through said shields.

Back to the ginormous (bigger than a CR-90) Purrgil, they obviously are quite hardy.   Their hide is quite tough, and since they are seen in an asteroid field, we could extrapolate that their hides are indeed thick, and resistant to physical impact, where as asteroids are shown doing a number on star destroyers, once again showing how vulnerable they are to physical impacts. So if giant purrgil are that tough, and there are other beasts in star wars just as tough - the zillo beast for instance, and star destroyers vulnerable to physical impacts (Empire Strikes Back, Rogue One) than the damage inflicted is not that incredulous.

Now the whole channel zero thing.   Lets see what we know about it.   It is no longer use most importantly.   Here is my reasoning why;  First off, we know purrgil can navigate hyperspace naturally, something that computers have to calculate so they may have a higher brain functions that understand mathematics to a certain degree.  We know they travel in pods, therefore they likely have a method of communication, perhaps along the same band/wavelengths/etc. that channel zero operates at.  So perhaps “loud” signals on this channel attract them?   Perhaps this is why channel zero is not used, which makes sense because Purrgil are considers a menance to ships.    If certain signals did attract the creatures which then collided with ships it fits.  

Now, Ezra has made direct mental contact with a Purrgil.  If they are truly intelligent, and I believe they are, the one that saved him in the previous encounter may have told others about how he (Ezra), defended the Purrgil.  If they have a sense of loyalty or friendship, this could be why they chose to come.  

Now, how did the channel zero message work.   Well, Ezra clearly has been meditating during to come up with the plan.  Perhaps whatever force visions happens gave him the “language” to summon the purrgil.   If what I proposed above is true, and channel zero is the same way that purrgil communicate, and purrgil are in fact sapient, it is not so far fetched,  no more so than the average space wizard that is.  

Could a simple line of dialog have explained all this?   Yep.   But perhaps that is something that will be explained at a later time?   The heroes were just as surprised as the Empire, and if Sabine finds Ezra, I'm sure she will ask him how he did it.

So, I don't see it as a Deus Ex Machina per se, but a story seed for a other day.   Having questions, and posting conjecture is part of the fun.

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It's something I've wanted to post about a few times but mostly left alone because I didn't want to get dragged into an itty bitty argument, but it segues neatly from what Samophlange has said.

For one, some of those purrgil were enormous. Comparable to the size of a capital ship. We see shots of three carrying the Chimera and they are a decent fraction of the Chimera's size.

For two, the cube-square law* implies that the purrgil would actually be structurally very tough (explaining why they are such a hazard to shipping lanes too). Godzilla in most movies is built like a tank and so he should be! To actually to grow to such a size and not collapse into a lump of goo, Godzilla's skeletomuscular system would have to be made of a material equivalent to structural steel at least. (His viscera would probably be comparatively structurally tough too)

Purrgil can also survive both in a vacuum and in deep space, which is the key to that above comparison working. Moving between these two types regions would involve massive changes in both pressure and gravity. The fact that they don't collapse under their weight in a gravitational field suggests they are structurally pretty damned tough, pound for pound. The fact they survive in a vacuum implies they either themselves contain little internal gas pressure (which suggests their bodies are ALSO stopping them being crushed under the massive pressures they'd experience in Lothal's atmosphere) or they do contain gases and their pretty hardy frames are able to contain those pressures. Given the pretty large surface area of the purrgil, that's no mean feat. (They may have some sort of gas bladder system but that doesn't seem likely. I'd be curious if anyone has any thoughts about that though)

For context, this chamber is much bigger than a purrgil (although that'd be interesting to run the numbers on!), yes, but you can see the thickness of concrete required to contain a vacuum on Earth. (that's not just a fancy archway, that's part of the concrete pressure vessel that works to stop a rupture of the aluminium** of the chamber. Metals tend to be better in tension, concrete in compression, which is why most concrete structures have reinforcing bars inside the concrete.)Image result for vacuum chamber brian cox

Image result for vacuum chamber brian cox

Cox goes into more detail here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E43-CfukEgs) It's a video about Newton's Laws, really, but he explains the pressure vessel at about 40 seconds. Also, the whole video is worth a watch anyway.

Basically, what I'm saying is that, according to science, purrgil are absolutely shredded.

Maybe I'll run the numbers at some point but I already worry I'm to far gone into madness talking about concrete purrgil.

 


*For those who aren't familiar with the cube-square law, here's a simple version. The structures in the body such as muscles tend to apply forces that are a function of surface area. Thicker muscles, for example, are stronger, but making muscles longer wouldn't change them. So, basically, muscle strength increases as the square of their radius. Density, however, does increase with length too. So by the cube. Larger objects will always be much more susceptible to structural failure (this applies to machines as well as organisms. Replace muscles or similar tissues with "support beams" or other such structures.) Incidentally, this is why we're unlikely to ever need to worry about giant ants or other giant arthropods. As well as respiratory issues, most would collapse under the weight of their own exo-skeletons if inflated to ludicrous sizes.

**or aluminum, if you are American and WRONG (=P)

Edited by Ktan

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17 hours ago, Ktan said:

For context, this chamber is much bigger than a purrgil (although that'd be interesting to run the numbers on!), yes, but you can see the thickness of concrete required to contain a vacuum on Earth. (that's not just a fancy archway, that's part of the concrete pressure vessel that works to stop a rupture of the aluminium** of the chamber. Metals tend to be better in tension, concrete in compression, which is why most concrete structures have reinforcing bars inside the concrete.)Image result for vacuum chamber brian cox

Image result for vacuum chamber brian cox

 

A typical submarine experiences far greater pressure differential than a spacecraft. A quick gogle says 700 PSI at 500m. Space to sea level pressure is 14.7 PSI. And subs have been made out of steel since at least 1775.

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2 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

A typical submarine experiences far greater pressure differential than a spacecraft. A quick gogle says 700 PSI at 500m. Space to sea level pressure is 14.7 PSI. And subs have been made out of steel since at least 1775.

 

LOL, but the 1700-era submarines weren't going any deeper than 10m.

Heck, even 100m was unusual for US subs until well into the Cold War.  (The Germans built some that could do 250m, but only out of necessity)

But the question isn't really around what something is made out of, but how that material is used.  For the Type VII U-Boats, between one variant and another, they increased the thickness of the steel in the hull nearly 20% to increase the crush depth from 200m to 250m.  Much depends on design intent!  Modern surface warships don't even have that thickness of metal anywhere on them anymore, because weapon lethality parameters resulted in the difference being no longer relevant - but during WW2, surface ships would have belt armor some 20-30 times the thickness of the hull on a U-boat.  And true 'space ships' are even worse - the lunar lander was little more than aluminum foil wrapped around a skeleton frame in most spots.  The habitable area somewhat thicker, as it had to support atmospheric pressurization - although only to 4.8psi.

The reality of the situation is that we just don't know what kind of hull the star destroyers were made out of, or the Purgills, to make any comparisons.

All we can really say for certain is that the asteroids in ESB are basically gunpowder-and-flint rocks filled with hydrogen that explode on contact with each other...

tumblr_o522nj3kQ01v9oda2o1_500.gif

...but still do this to a Star Destroyer when they hit it...

tumblr_mhl4l4a7851r93xiko1_500.gif

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