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Captain Lackwit

STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

Lucas has said in multiple interviews the original 6 movies were politically undertoned about the Nixon administration. 

So it’s no surprise really to see the same theme repeated when you have 6 movies covering the same concept. 

Yeah the problem is he had his chance, RotJ ‘succesfully’ showed what he wanted, but he just kept doing the same thing.  At least the early 70s Nixon-years story worked well in the prequels and ended up being topical after 911.  I feel the Nixon White House May have returned with a vengeance at a time when George doesn’t have the means to repeat himself again like the rest of history is.

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On 3/9/2018 at 9:19 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

You know, I feel the need to say this.

Filoni's absolute obsession with Wolves, I wonder about.

I'm a furry, and Filoni's obsession with wolves leaves me wondering if he's quite alright.

At some point you gotta sit back and go, "Dude... Dude, maybe... Like, stop..? Are you okay? You're great as a writer and all but dude like, your wolf thing... Do you need to talk to somebody?"

I'd bet you good money that he's going to churn out a Space Wolves novel someday. That is if he doesn't already have a half dozen stored away until he can catch Gee Dub's attention. How else will the Wolfen liberate the Wolf Chief from the clutches of a Chaos corrupted Wolf Captain on board the Wolf of the Wolf's Wolf's Wolf in order to get back to the Wolfortress for the Ceremony of the Wolf?

On 3/9/2018 at 3:01 AM, SabineKey said:

Lothal wasn't an officially sanctioned mission and the goal of the "cell" wasn't to restore the Republic. What happened on Lothal was a rogue op looking to rid one world, not the Galaxy, of the Empire. Saw was once part of the allience, yet he went his own way, continuing to rebel without being part of the Alliance. Another piece of context.

Technically Scariff wasn't a sanctioned mission either. Rebel high command nixed the idea of a raid, a rogue cell set up a mission that had nothing to do with restoring the republic, and a high profile commander disobeyed orders and assisted. And yet that battle is meant to be plugged in to the opening credits while Lothal is waved off despite a rebel cell being a vital component to the victory there?

That's not how rebellions work. If different rebel cells were under that much control by the Alliance, it would be impossible for them to carry out local insurgencies because your superiors can't know in detail what's going on in your section of the galaxy without making themselves a target and you can't jump on sudden opportunities without getting permission from higher first and losing initiative. If an official stamp of approval is needed for it to be a Rebel action, then most of what we saw in the series has nothing to do with the Rebellion and the series should have just been called 'a half dozen folks fighting the Empire'.

 

In any case, I think that this last episode was the last nail in the coffin of a dear member of the Star Wars mythos that has been on life support ever since the Mouse took over.

R.I.P. Powerful Imperial Star Destroyer: 1977-2018

The very first exposure we ever had to the Empire in Star Wars was the massive frame of an ISD practically zooming over our heads as it chased the relatively diminutive Rebel ship. That and the perspective change that followed was meant to show just how horribly outgunned the Rebels were compared to the evil powers that be.

Nowadays, one has to question why Captain Antilles didn't just ram the Tantive IV into the side of the ISD to push it into the surface of Tatooine or just give it a few volleys from its turrets to blow it up.

The ISD has been relegated to the same level of stoogedom as the poor stormtrooper. But whereas the stormtrooper at least had a reputation of being a bad shot, the ISD was always the thing you were trying to run away from. The Imperial juggernaut that was relentless in pursuit and invincible to harm.

And now it has gone from something that could glass the surface of entire planets to something that can't even shoot a pod of space whales. The ISD really couldn't avoid appearing in Rebels, and it got the same touch of stupidity that so many villains in the series received. I mean seriously, did you ever see an ISD in the show and think 'uh oh, they're in for it now'?

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3 hours ago, flyboymb said:

I'd bet you good money that he's going to churn out a Space Wolves novel someday. That is if he doesn't already have a half dozen stored away until he can catch Gee Dub's attention. How else will the Wolfen liberate the Wolf Chief from the clutches of a Chaos corrupted Wolf Captain on board the Wolf of the Wolf's Wolf's Wolf in order to get back to the Wolfortress for the Ceremony of the Wolf?

507225_1.jpg

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1 hour ago, Imperial Advisor Arem Heshvaun said:

 

Interestingly, while we all feel sorry for Ahsoka in this picture ...

l3wg45kp61l01.png

 

By the Will of The Force,  she will ultimately outlive them all.

Three of those guys became force ghosts tho, so more powerful yadda yadda.  I guess Ashoka Tano might go the same route?   

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3 hours ago, flyboymb said:

R.I.P. Powerful Imperial Star Destroyer: 1977-2018

RIP Executor Class SSD: 1980-1983

the largest Imperial warship was taken out by a tiny star fighter.  I think gigantic space monsters are a step up.

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1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

RIP Executor Class SSD: 1980-1983

the largest Imperial warship was taken out by a tiny star fighter.  I think gigantic space monsters are a step up.

Not really.  The movie does a decent job of showing the exact right set of circumstances that allowed the Executor to go down.  Even Ackbar collapsing in his chair shows his relief and surprise that they were able to take the SSD down.  The novels and comics draw on that and offer new explanations as well. 

The ISD these days doesn't really have that impact, it's just there, either as part of the background or as cannon fodder for space whales.  The only real cool scene I can think of an ISD having was in Rogue One, with the Devastator. 

Edited by Alpha17

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17 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

The ISD these days doesn't really have that impact, it's just there, either as part of the background or as cannon fodder for space whales.  The only real cool scene I can think of an ISD having was in Rogue One, with the Devastator. 

Devastator is the only ISD to stand out in the OT.  It captured the Tantive IV and wowed audiences.  Every other ISD either lost a race with the Falcon, collided with other ISDs or asteroids, or was used as a parking spot for a light freighter.  Endor had several SDs asplode and pew pew but nothing outstanding to merit specific call backs. And there were a LOT of them, all over.  They looked scary but over all the OT didn’t treat them as all that special.  

Sure R1 had the infamous decap via Hammerhead and Rebels showed how one stray piece of junk tossed off a walkway can destroy the entire vessel, and that was back in season one!  But it might be nostalgia to recall ISDs as super impressive in the OT.  The EU was a wash, trying to show how powerful they were only to handicap them with vulnerable shield generators and whole fleets being lost in several battles.  I don’t think Disney has really taken the bar down as far as you think.

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7 hours ago, flyboymb said:

 

Technically Scariff wasn't a sanctioned mission either. Rebel high command nixed the idea of a raid, a rogue cell set up a mission that had nothing to do with restoring the republic, and a high profile commander disobeyed orders and assisted. And yet that battle is meant to be plugged in to the opening credits while Lothal is waved off despite a rebel cell being a vital component to the victory there?

That's not how rebellions work. If different rebel cells were under that much control by the Alliance, it would be impossible for them to carry out local insurgencies because your superiors can't know in detail what's going on in your section of the galaxy without making themselves a target and you can't jump on sudden opportunities without getting permission from higher first and losing initiative. If an official stamp of approval is needed for it to be a Rebel action, then most of what we saw in the series has nothing to do with the Rebellion and the series should have just been called 'a half dozen folks fighting the Empire'.

You do realize one can be a Rebel without being in the Rebel Alliance, right? We’ve already seen that with Saw. Heck, the Rebel Alliance wasn’t officially formed until Season 2. But that doesn’t make them any less Rebels.

Your point about the Scarif being an unsanctioned op is fair, however primary leaders of the Alliance threw in support for it that helped it succeed, and not just Radus. Lothal had no support from the Alliance. 

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35 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You do realize one can be a Rebel without being in the Rebel Alliance, right? We’ve already seen that with Saw. Heck, the Rebel Alliance wasn’t officially formed until Season 2. But that doesn’t make them any less Rebels.

Your point about the Scarif being an unsanctioned op is fair, however primary leaders of the Alliance threw in support for it that helped it succeed, and not just Radus. Lothal had no support from the Alliance. 

A local insurrection vs a military operation against Imperial installations to gain knowledge of secret weapons with the galaxy in the balance.  Hmmm. 

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8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

507225_1.jpg

Related image

 

11 hours ago, flyboymb said:

I'd bet you good money that he's going to churn out a Space Wolves novel someday. That is if he doesn't already have a half dozen stored away until he can catch Gee Dub's attention. How else will the Wolfen liberate the Wolf Chief from the clutches of a Chaos corrupted Wolf Captain on board the Wolf of the Wolf's Wolf's Wolf in order to get back to the Wolfortress for the Ceremony of the Wolf?

image.jpeg.6455db61f4149e37c911a8727ab1270c.jpeg

;)(Please do not take this sithpost seriously)

Edited by FlyingAnchors

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What if the Ezra is Snoke theory is right? I mean, the finale has actually given it a lot to work with.  The new series could see Sabine and Ashoka slowly piecing together that Ezra and Thrawn ended up in the unknown regions.  Without the continuing guidance of Kanan, Ezra succumbs to the dark side to survive in a hostile, unexplored sector of the galaxy.

Meanwhile Thrawn begins rebuilding the scattered fragments of the empire (becoming its heir if you will), laying the groundwork for the eventual rise of the First Order.

It would be a really bittersweet arc if we have to watch Ezra fall.  It would rival Anakin's fall in its tragedy and it would be handled with a TV series so it would benefit from long form storytelling.  Also it would shut up all of the Snoke theorists that wanted to know his entire back story.

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28 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

What if the Ezra is Snoke theory is right? I mean, the finale has actually given it a lot to work with.  The new series could see Sabine and Ashoka slowly piecing together that Ezra and Thrawn ended up in the unknown regions.  Without the continuing guidance of Kanan, Ezra succumbs to the dark side to survive in a hostile, unexplored sector of the galaxy.

Meanwhile Thrawn begins rebuilding the scattered fragments of the empire (becoming its heir if you will), laying the groundwork for the eventual rise of the First Order.

It would be a really bittersweet arc if we have to watch Ezra fall.  It would rival Anakin's fall in its tragedy and it would be handled with a TV series so it would benefit from long form storytelling.  Also it would shut up all of the Snoke theorists that wanted to know his entire back story.

I doubt Filoni would let one of his characters be reduced to becoming Snoke.

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12 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Devastator is the only ISD to stand out in the OT.  It captured the Tantive IV and wowed audiences.  Every other ISD either lost a race with the Falcon, collided with other ISDs or asteroids, or was used as a parking spot for a light freighter.  Endor had several SDs asplode and pew pew but nothing outstanding to merit specific call backs. And there were a LOT of them, all over.  They looked scary but over all the OT didn’t treat them as all that special.  

Sure R1 had the infamous decap via Hammerhead and Rebels showed how one stray piece of junk tossed off a walkway can destroy the entire vessel, and that was back in season one!  But it might be nostalgia to recall ISDs as super impressive in the OT.  The EU was a wash, trying to show how powerful they were only to handicap them with vulnerable shield generators and whole fleets being lost in several battles.  I don’t think Disney has really taken the bar down as far as you think.

The instances that you cited still had a sense of urgency to them. The Falcon was running from the Avenger and hiding upon it because otherwise capture would be inevitable. Admiral Akbar was more than ready to retreat from Endor at the first sight of the Imperial fleet and didn't want to go toe to toe (fin to toe?) with the ISDs even when his most powerful cruisers were being vaporized by the Death Star. There was a healthy respect for the vessel and they were engaged only as a last resort. Post-Disney, especially Rebels, rarely sees them even firing a shot at the enemy and instead just acting like the spaceship equivalent of overgrown henchmen chasing after the heroes just to have buckets of water dropped on their heads. The ISDs of the OT needed a planetside ion cannon battery to easily knock it out, not a tie dyed TIE with a handful of small charges.

Fans and authors have traditionally gone through great lengths to justify why overwhelming Imperial force was easily overcome by a couple heroes. The stormtroopers on the Death Star were under orders to let the heroes go. Tarkin didn't bother sending out even a minimal fighter screen. The Emperor's occupation with Luke and eventual death led to the defeat of the fleet and 501st at Endor.

There's nothing like that in Rebels. The Empire for the most part had no reason to pull back their punches and the base stats of the ISD just don't mesh with what the show eventually put out. The entire crew of Tarkin's ship was on simultaneous nap break, an armada was unable to break through an antiquated shield generator not even close in size to the one on Hoth, and carcasses of space whales weren't raining down on Lothal after being hit by any of the many turbolaser batteries which vaporized asteroids on impact.

I'm not one to go by the overly inflated numbers of Saxton, but there is a system of evolution to military designs. You don't sink limited resources into an entire fleet of something without it at least being able to hold itself against the known threats that can be arrayed against it. Only the unexpected can serve to be a hard counter for it. That's why battleships failed spectacularly against the carrier and modern armored vehicles were initially quite sensitive to IEDs. Their design did not take those concepts into consideration and they turned out to be hard counters. Making your mainline fighting ships be incapable of taking out hostile fauna is tantamount to making a battleship that could be scuttled by an angry sperm whale. It just doesn't make sense.

11 hours ago, SabineKey said:

You do realize one can be a Rebel without being in the Rebel Alliance, right? We’ve already seen that with Saw. Heck, the Rebel Alliance wasn’t officially formed until Season 2. But that doesn’t make them any less Rebels.

Your point about the Scarif being an unsanctioned op is fair, however primary leaders of the Alliance threw in support for it that helped it succeed, and not just Radus. Lothal had no support from the Alliance. 

The initial argument was that Lothal was not a Rebel operation because the High Command didn't give it an official stamp of approval. I was just pointing out that there were other unsanctioned attacks that were carried out that nonetheless got a V placed next to the Rebellion's name after the fact. Rebel High Command could not come to a consensus as to what to do about the Death Star and certainly wasn't approving of a strike on a highly defended base to get a copy of the plans. Jyn and company scraped together what volunteers they could and Raddus left unannounced and joined the party. There was no official mission put together by the leadership.

In a similar fashion, Hera and crew were part of the Alliance. There was no grand speech by Dodonna about how if they go support Lothal they'll lose their Alliance membership and access to the smoothie bar. Hera assisted in the liberation of Lothal and turned right around and assisted with the acquisition of the Death Star plans. As I said, rebellions don't act that way, I'd bet 95% of the stuff Hera's cell did wasn't approved by high command. But in this one instance, the crew conducts an operation in the area where they traditionally were stationed AS REBELS but it doesn't count this time because somebody said so? That would be like saying the US had no involvement with China's fighting Japan during WWII even though we were shipping P-40's and pilots over there before Congress declared war in 1941.

So if Hera wasn't representing the Alliance at Lothal, then Jyn and Raddus weren't representing the Alliance at Scarriff. Rebels aren't Uber drivers that turn off their work depending on whether they're hauling a customer or taking their kid to school.

10 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

A local insurrection vs a military operation against Imperial installations to gain knowledge of secret weapons with the galaxy in the balance.  Hmmm. 

Since when does the size of the victory have any bearing on whether it is a victory or not? Lothal saw an entire planet taken out of Imperial control while Scarriff saw a good chunk of the Rebellion's fleet destroyed and no clear payoff for their efforts until a farmboy managed to make one of the luckiest torpedo runs in history. That military operation wouldn't have even happened if Jyn had stayed on the U-Wing while Cassian followed orders to snipe Daddy while X-Wings made sure everybody with accessible knowledge of the plans was killed. Insubordination saved the galaxy, not a military operation.

15 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

What if the Ezra is Snoke theory is right? I mean, the finale has actually given it a lot to work with.  The new series could see Sabine and Ashoka slowly piecing together that Ezra and Thrawn ended up in the unknown regions.  Without the continuing guidance of Kanan, Ezra succumbs to the dark side to survive in a hostile, unexplored sector of the galaxy.

Meanwhile Thrawn begins rebuilding the scattered fragments of the empire (becoming its heir if you will), laying the groundwork for the eventual rise of the First Order.

It would be a really bittersweet arc if we have to watch Ezra fall.  It would rival Anakin's fall in its tragedy and it would be handled with a TV series so it would benefit from long form storytelling.  Also it would shut up all of the Snoke theorists that wanted to know his entire back story.

Let's see...

Snoke is another word for Snook, a highly spiny fish.

Catholic doctrine requires them to have a helping of fish in lieu of other meat of Fridays during Lent.

Catholicism and Christianity as a whole is an offshoot of Judaism.

Ezra is Hebrew for help.

Another name for the Snook is Robalo which is likely descended from the word llobarro, which is itself descended from lobo

Lobo means wolf.

Fracking Filoni.

It's a bit of a stretch but Ezra=Snoke confirmed.

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I hope the new series is entirely separate from Rebels with maybe the occasional character making appearances.

I would be very annoyed for instance if we got a show about the resistance that could provide all the world building for the sequel trilogy and it revolved around finding Ezra.

I would like to see new characters.

Edited by Forresto

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48 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

The initial argument was that Lothal was not a Rebel operation because the High Command didn't give it an official stamp of approval. I was just pointing out that there were other unsanctioned attacks that were carried out that nonetheless got a V placed next to the Rebellion's name after the fact. Rebel High Command could not come to a consensus as to what to do about the Death Star and certainly wasn't approving of a strike on a highly defended base to get a copy of the plans. Jyn and company scraped together what volunteers they could and Raddus left unannounced and joined the party. There was no official mission put together by the leadership.

In a similar fashion, Hera and crew were part of the Alliance. There was no grand speech by Dodonna about how if they go support Lothal they'll lose their Alliance membership and access to the smoothie bar. Hera assisted in the liberation of Lothal and turned right around and assisted with the acquisition of the Death Star plans. As I said, rebellions don't act that way, I'd bet 95% of the stuff Hera's cell did wasn't approved by high command. But in this one instance, the crew conducts an operation in the area where they traditionally were stationed AS REBELS but it doesn't count this time because somebody said so? That would be like saying the US had no involvement with China's fighting Japan during WWII even though we were shipping P-40's and pilots over there before Congress declared war in 1941.

So if Hera wasn't representing the Alliance at Lothal, then Jyn and Raddus weren't representing the Alliance at Scarriff. Rebels aren't Uber drivers that turn off their work depending on whether they're hauling a customer or taking their kid to school.

 

So, the fact that Mom Mothma denied their requests (to the frustration of the Ghost crew) doesn’t leave it open for the Ghost crew could step away from the Alliance to deal with something  personal? You can also note the attitude of the Ghost crew towards the Rebel Alliance when they liberated Lothal. They really weren’t interested in Alliance aid as they felt they did the work without the Alliance. 

You are also forgetting Saw and his Partisans. Do you think Saw’s shady tactics only started after he was booted out of the Alliance? He was an extremist to begin with and I can guarantee you the likes of Mothma and Organa wouldn’t be claiming credit for his actions.

Now, compare what happened on Lothal with Scarif. Scarif was won by the heroic actions and sacrifices of (relatively) normal people. Lothal had a large dose of mystisum tied into its liberation, from Jedi aid (which the Alliance no longer had), force sensitive wolves and space whales (which they can’t control). Does it sound like a good idea to take credit for something you can’t recreate? I know Rebellions are built on hope, but false hope like “we liberated Lothal” when they had no influence in the proceedings can turn to poison.

And finally, the reason Scarif is a Rebel Alliance victory is because they actually committed forces. Yes, the Rogue One crew was unsactioned. Raddus too. And if they had failed, it would have been a misguided, rogue op that wouldn’t have been listed in the Alliance’s exploits. But upon hearing the opportunity, the remaining Rebel leaders threw what they could to aid in the Battle(primarily Mothma and Organa) resulting in success. The Alliance did no such thing in the final liberation of Lothal, thus have no stake in the success that was obtained. 

Edit: To answer your WW2 point, the USA was involved with China for shipping them weapons. However, can the US claim Chinese victories as their own when it was Chinese actions and blood that obtained it?

Edited by SabineKey

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I think the difference though is what the Empire would define Lothal as.

Given the Ghost's known allegiance to the Alliance and then appearing not long after in the Battle of Scarif, i'm sure Lothal would be labeled as an Alliance operation to the Imperials. 

Hence a victory for the Rebellion...Pre Scarif...

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