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Captain Lackwit

STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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6 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Remember - kid's movie, folks!  At least, what passes for one in 1979...

As one of those kids watching this movie I thought it was kinda slow but the ending blew me away.  It was during Disney’s ‘Dark Age’ when they released Tron, Fox and the Hound, something wicked this way comes and Black Cauldron.   Oh and Pete’s dragon. On a side note The secret of Nymn, raiders and Temple of doom, and a bunch of these ‘Star wars’ movies came out around they time too, all geared toward ‘children’.  So weird.

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15 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Well you're gonna get one or the other. I'll take the decent one.

It's a false dilemma because you assume that there is no other choice than, in order to enjoy Star Wars, you have to either embrace the old EU as a whole, as the only alternative to liking the current canon.

That's not true. Back then, there were different levels of canon.
The real canon, so to speak, were the movies, the audiodramas and the novelizations. 
All of them were penned by Lucas and were kept more or less consistent.

You could perfectly experience Lucas' Star Wars without having to pay any attention to the Vong, the multiple clones of Palpatine, of Luke, and of Thrawn and all that garbage that Lucas himself repeatedly said he totally ignored.
And you could be absolutely certain that if Lucas needed to tell his version of the story, all the EU that was in the way would be promptly wiped off his path. The EU was basically the equivalent of Official Fanfiction.

So the EU had terrible things, yes. But you could perfectly ignore them because Star Wars creator himself did so.

There was the choice of limiting yourself to the movies. Or you could try and enjoy the EU games and books if you wanted or liked them. But those could tell whatever stories they wanted. As bad as they could be, they would never negatively affect the movies because they were a different universe, really. The Expanded Universe.

So it's not like you have to choose either the current canon, or the entirety of the old EU. That's bullcrap.
The current canon IS like that because all of it is equally accepted as canon. If you don't like what they did to Luke in Episode 8, bad luck. You cannot ignore it. You cannot ignore that all he fought for was for nothing. You cannot ignore that Han fled from his problems like a coward. That Luke hid like a coward. That Leia lost her father, her planet, her son, her husband, her brother, and all her comrades in the Alliance only to end empty handed. That her entire life, experiences and suffering was pointless.

Had this take on Han, Luke and Leia been done in a book in the old EU, people would have been laughing their asses off while talking about it and relegating it to the same Hall of Infamy as the Vong or other stupid stories. Lucas would have totally ignored it had he decided to shoot episodes 7-9, etc.

I would take the old canon and my choice of limited works from the EU over the terrible new canon, no doubt, and perhaps also some parts of Rebels and some few other new stories.

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4 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Operation Cinder is a very Palpatine thing to do, "If I can't have it nobody can" but... It's actually REALLY stupid that the whole freakin' Empire was THAT loyal.

 

Agreed.

I *might* be able to see Palps do it (though that implies that he even considered that he would be defeated, and that's a very un-Palpatine thing to do), but why the **** would anyone in the Empire carry out the plan?  One or two diehards, sure, maybe.  Every government has its true believers.  Hitler wanted the SS to go off and play resistance fighter in 1945, after all, and a few tried it.  But the Empire at large?  And to loyal worlds that they need to continue their fight against the rebellion?  Yeah no.  
 

If anything, I feel like the Post-Endor Empire is made to look more like a group of thugs, rather than a Galactic government with over two decades of legitimacy (or more, considering it was just the evolved form of the Old Republic).  Every senior officer (besides Sloane, but she's a different issue) is presented as a druggie, or some weird fetish-having madman, not as military men in the vein of Thrawn, Pelleon, or even the films' Tarkin, Veers, and Piett.  That, by itself, makes anyone carrying out Operation Cinder even less likely.  

Edited by Alpha17

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19 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

I've generally been impressed with the new canon overall. Sure, its taken a largely different direction from the EU, but I'm happy with that. I've enjoyed the content put out so far.

They’ve also put stuff in legends back in cannon and kept most of the junk out. 

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At this point I'm personally head canoning the stuff until something changes my mind. I'm fine with keeping with most of the current canon's prequel and OT content, but pretty much most stuff at this point in the ST era I'm going to ignore in favor for the bits that I do like of the old EU or at least the broad strokes. I get that they (LFL/Disney) wanted to reset the universe to the point people loved in the OT and they didn't care that they did it at the expense of the original characters and everything they fought for but I rather see growth and those characters (mostly) get the happy endings they worked hard for. I much prefer Luke running a jedi academy, bringing the light back to the galaxy, having a family, and being happy over some self-exiled grumpy man. I much prefer the idea that Han stuck around and had a loving marriage and family with Leia than ending up penniless and at the bottom of Illum/Star Killer Base. And I much rather the Leia who was successful in politics, studied jedi arts, and had a legacy over how everything she had ever fought for ended up for nothing. 

We are fans, and are quite capable of picking the parts we like from them and explaining away what we don't or the bits that don't line up exactly. If you like something new added like the new Thrawn books, Rebels, Rogue One, or even the ST then go ahead and run with it, all the power to you. If there are bits that you don't like then toss it aside for what you do like, at least we have two interpretations of many of the characters so it isn't like we are completely stuck with only one with how things played out. 

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4 hours ago, Azrapse said:

It's a false dilemma because you assume that there is no other choice than, in order to enjoy Star Wars, you have to either embrace the old EU as a whole, as the only alternative to liking the current canon.

That's not true. Back then, there were different levels of canon.
The real canon, so to speak, were the movies, the audiodramas and the novelizations. 
All of them were penned by Lucas and were kept more or less consistent.

You could perfectly experience Lucas' Star Wars without having to pay any attention to the Vong, the multiple clones of Palpatine, of Luke, and of Thrawn and all that garbage that Lucas himself repeatedly said he totally ignored.
And you could be absolutely certain that if Lucas needed to tell his version of the story, all the EU that was in the way would be promptly wiped off his path. The EU was basically the equivalent of Official Fanfiction.

So the EU had terrible things, yes. But you could perfectly ignore them because Star Wars creator himself did so.

There was the choice of limiting yourself to the movies. Or you could try and enjoy the EU games and books if you wanted or liked them. But those could tell whatever stories they wanted. As bad as they could be, they would never negatively affect the movies because they were a different universe, really. The Expanded Universe.

So it's not like you have to choose either the current canon, or the entirety of the old EU. That's bullcrap.
The current canon IS like that because all of it is equally accepted as canon. If you don't like what they did to Luke in Episode 8, bad luck. You cannot ignore it. You cannot ignore that all he fought for was for nothing. You cannot ignore that Han fled from his problems like a coward. That Luke hid like a coward. That Leia lost her father, her planet, her son, her husband, her brother, and all her comrades in the Alliance only to end empty handed. That her entire life, experiences and suffering was pointless.

Had this take on Han, Luke and Leia been done in a book in the old EU, people would have been laughing their asses off while talking about it and relegating it to the same Hall of Infamy as the Vong or other stupid stories. Lucas would have totally ignored it had he decided to shoot episodes 7-9, etc.

I would take the old canon and my choice of limited works from the EU over the terrible new canon, no doubt, and perhaps also some parts of Rebels and some few other new stories.

Let's expand upon this real quick, though. You go talk to various Star Wars fans, some will tell you they only regard SOME stuff as canon, others will tell you it's ALL canon whether you like it or not, and when it comes down to it, fans treated it as though it was ALL canon. None of it ever was.

You can't just pick and choose what is and isn't canon as a fan, that isn't a decision we make. We can ignore stuff all we want, but it still happened. That's a cold hard narrative fact. Because let's say we ignore something. Let's say we do that, and someday end up like Heshvaun? By ignoring stuff outright we're not only doing a disservice to the creator of that work but also anything that will ever connect to it in any way at all, ever.

That's a problem. Now then, starting from the top...

Levels of canon were stupid. Always stupid. But it ensured, I thought, very clearly, that fans could and would recognize anything non film related as disposable. Turns out, they can't. Four years and we as a fanbase seem to be having the hardest time figuring out facts right in our face.

Because when you ignore stuff as Lucas, and then you change stuff on a whim, you're gonna hurt people. Karven Traviss outright quit Star Wars thanks to his treatment of the Mandalorians in The Clone Wars and you know what? Traviss' mandos were 100% better than CW's mandos, not even up for debate, they flat out frakkin' were, these new ones are drab, boring and lacking in any of that wild, unpredictable fire and personality. Even Sabine is dry, and she's designed NOT to be. This. This is thanks to lucas. This is "Ignoring **Canon**".

See where that gets us?

And Luke didn't fight for nothing, Han did what he's always done, packed up and ran. But you know what? These two did it for REALLY BIG, GOOD REASONS. Vader's Grandson wrecked their s**t. How could Luke ever tell his Sister, "I almost killed your Son but didn't."? How could Han ever live in the same home as Leia without their beloved Son that they put everything into, who they knew was going to be hard to raise, who they both viewed as having failed him, who could not even look at each other without being REMINDED OF THE PAIN that his choices brought?

Like, with all due respect, can you actually understand that?

Imagine your son learns by a senator calling out Leia's relation to Vader, that he learns he is the grandson of the second most evil figurehead ever. You have to explain to that boy why you didn't tell him sooner, why nobody told him what he was, why Luke his MASTER did not tell him. You know what a relationship between student and pupil is like for martial artists? It can be so, so intimate. Your master will know you in ways your parents can't know you and your lover can't know you, there is a trust and a bond, it's an entirely different kind of family. It's like a father or a mother but not quite, but nothing like an older brother or sister. Thirty years later and my father regards his Master Kim with the utmost respect and would trust him with almost any knowledge or responsibility all this time later. I can not stress enough how strong a bond can form between Master and Pupil.

So imagine that.

Imagine your mother, your father, your master, knew the most earth shattering secret about you, and nobody told you. Because they were scared of you. How you would react. What you would do. Is it any wonder that Ben became the monster he did? Is it any wonder how hard he struggled with this? He wasn't just betrayed by Luke.

Ben was, in his mind, betrayed by everybody he knew, loved and trusted.

Now imagine being Any of those people. Please. Then for a moment you may understand why Luke ran. Why Han ran. Why even Leia could do nothing to help her beloved son.

Look me in the eyes and tell me that the old canon's Solo family can even hope to match that emotional weight.

Edited by Captain Lackwit

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So for the first time ever I am actually caught up with all the Rebels episodes that have been aired, so I excitedly came to this thread to geek out about DUME and everything that's been happening the last few episodes only to find that...

 

...

Nobody appears to actually be talking about Rebels. Instead, I seem to have walked in on an argument about whether or not you can believe in (and whether or not you should like) the old canon or the new canon or the EU or your own made up head canon. :huh:

Well... whatever people. You do your thing, I'll just geek out by myself over here. :P

Spoilers for Rebels Season 4 Episode 10:

Rebels-Kanan-021918-615x320.jpg 200w_d.gif

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17 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

So for the first time ever I am actually caught up with all the Rebels episodes that have been aired, so I excitedly came to this thread to geek out about DUME and everything that's been happening the last few episodes only to find that...

 

...

Nobody appears to actually be talking about Rebels. Instead, I seem to have walked in on an argument about whether or not you can believe in (and whether or not you should like) the old canon or the new canon or the EU or your own made up head canon. :huh:

Well... whatever people. You do your thing, I'll just geek out by myself over here. :P

Spoilers for Rebels Season 4 Episode 10:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Rebels-Kanan-021918-615x320.jpg 200w_d.gif

 

 

I think we talked about the newest episode a few pages back. That said, I'm glad you liked the episodes.

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54 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Let's expand upon this real quick, though. You go talk to various Star Wars fans, some will tell you they only regard SOME stuff as canon, others will tell you it's ALL canon whether you like it or not, and when it comes down to it, fans treated it as though it was ALL canon. None of it ever was.

You can't just pick and choose what is and isn't canon as a fan, that isn't a decision we make. We can ignore stuff all we want, but it still happened. That's a cold hard narrative fact. Because let's say we ignore something. Let's say we do that, and someday end up like Heshvaun? By ignoring stuff outright we're not only doing a disservice to the creator of that work but also anything that will ever connect to it in any way at all, ever.

That's a problem. Now then, starting from the top...

Levels of canon were stupid. Always stupid. But it ensured, I thought, very clearly, that fans could and would recognize anything non film related as disposable. Turns out, they can't. Four years and we as a fanbase seem to be having the hardest time figuring out facts right in our face.

Because when you ignore stuff as Lucas, and then you change stuff on a whim, you're gonna hurt people. Karven Traviss outright quit Star Wars thanks to his treatment of the Mandalorians in The Clone Wars and you know what? Traviss' mandos were 100% better than CW's mandos, not even up for debate, they flat out frakkin' were, these new ones are drab, boring and lacking in any of that wild, unpredictable fire and personality. Even Sabine is dry, and she's designed NOT to be. This. This is thanks to lucas. This is "Ignoring **Canon**".

See where that gets us?

And Luke didn't fight for nothing, Han did what he's always done, packed up and ran. But you know what? These two did it for REALLY BIG, GOOD REASONS. Vader's Grandson wrecked their s**t. How could Luke ever tell his Sister, "I almost killed your Son but didn't."? How could Han ever live in the same home as Leia without their beloved Son that they put everything into, who they knew was going to be hard to raise, who they both viewed as having failed him, who could not even look at each other without being REMINDED OF THE PAIN that his choices brought?

Like, with all due respect, can you actually understand that?

Imagine your son learns by a senator calling out Leia's relation to Vader, that he learns he is the grandson of the second most evil figurehead ever. You have to explain to that boy why you didn't tell him sooner, why nobody told him what he was, why Luke his MASTER did not tell him. You know what a relationship between student and pupil is like for martial artists? It can be so, so intimate. Your master will know you in ways your parents can't know you and your lover can't know you, there is a trust and a bond, it's an entirely different kind of family. It's like a father or a mother but not quite, but nothing like an older brother or sister. Thirty years later and my father regards his Master Kim with the utmost respect and would trust him with almost any knowledge or responsibility all this time later. I can not stress enough how strong a bond can form between Master and Pupil.

So imagine that.

Imagine your mother, your father, your master, knew the most earth shattering secret about you, and nobody told you. Because they were scared of you. How you would react. What you would do. Is it any wonder that Ben became the monster he did? Is it any wonder how hard he struggled with this? He wasn't just betrayed by Luke.

Ben was, in his mind, betrayed by everybody he knew, loved and trusted.

Now imagine being Any of those people. Please. Then for a moment you may understand why Luke ran. Why Han ran. Why even Leia could do nothing to help her beloved son.

Look me in the eyes and tell me that the old canon's Solo family can even hope to match that emotional weight.

While I wasn't a fan of the old mandalorian fiction, I will say that you did hit the nail on the head about the Solo/Skywalker family.

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The different levels of canon were somewhat necessary because the EU got so unwieldy that you had direct contradictions that had to be worked out. Do you guys remember how convoluted a story was eventually woven about the acquisition of the original Death Star plans by the Rebellion? Palpatine captured Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and Garm bel Iblis (I think) and decided what the heck, let's take them to the Death Star. They know it was there but didn't know what it did.

So they hire Kyle Katarn to go steal them which he does... except Captain Antilles and Han Solo did the same thing to an Imperial research base... or was it a prisoner uprising on the Death Star which led to the plans being transmitted to Polis Massa? Or was it a Rebel spy satellite that intercepted the plans where they were given to Biggs Darklighter to courier to the Tantive IV? Or were they obtained at the Battle of Toprawa? Or did the Bothan SpyNet pick up the info resulting in many Bothans dying for the first Death Star as well when the Emperor himself decided to use a bunch of them as lightning rods?

This was because so many video games were in existence that had you steal the plans, but EVERYTHING in the Star Wars universe was canon so they all had to fit together somehow. There was no singular 'rebel spaceships , striking from a hidden base' stealing the plans from the Empire and transmitting them to Princess Leia. Now we had numerous pieces of the plans (much like Luke's map in TFA) that R2 had to combine in order to have a full set. But this ignores that the Rebels just so happened to get the correct segments without any vital gaps but they didn't know this because they didn't study the plans before R2 combined them.

And don't even get me started on the trench run. Was it Keyan Farlander that destroyed the first Death Star? No it was Luke who you just happened to play as even though Keyan gets his own private awards ceremony for being the surviving Y-Wing in the battle. But then there was Splinter of the Mind's Eye where Vader accused Luke of being the one to shoot down his fighter even though Vader was the one behind Luke at the time and Han was the one doing the shooting (and even then it was technically his wingman).

The more demanding of the fandom insisted that everything that had Star Wars on it was actually Star Wars. At some point, because of the EU, C3PO and R2D2 wondered away from Captain Antilles and took part in the Droids series. At some point Jar Jar Binks was stranded on a desert island with his dad. And to top it all off you had Lucas saying that anything that he didn't make was from 'a different universe'.

Once you have demand for consistency meet multiple inconsistencies, something has to take precedence. Thus the different canon levels. If Vader was shown to be in two places during the same event, you had to figure out where they really were. If one comic said that the Executor was 30,000 km long while another source said 7,000 km, you had to figure out what was what.

Well, maybe not you, but the OCD elements of the fandom certainly did and there could nary be a wrinkle in the lore in their minds.

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26 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

The different levels of canon were somewhat necessary because the EU got so unwieldy that you had direct contradictions that had to be worked out. Do you guys remember how convoluted a story was eventually woven about the acquisition of the original Death Star plans by the Rebellion? Palpatine captured Mon Mothma, Bail Organa and Garm bel Iblis (I think) and decided what the heck, let's take them to the Death Star. They know it was there but didn't know what it did.

So they hire Kyle Katarn to go steal them which he does... except Captain Antilles and Han Solo did the same thing to an Imperial research base... or was it a prisoner uprising on the Death Star which led to the plans being transmitted to Polis Massa? Or was it a Rebel spy satellite that intercepted the plans where they were given to Biggs Darklighter to courier to the Tantive IV? Or were they obtained at the Battle of Toprawa? Or did the Bothan SpyNet pick up the info resulting in many Bothans dying for the first Death Star as well when the Emperor himself decided to use a bunch of them as lightning rods?

This was because so many video games were in existence that had you steal the plans, but EVERYTHING in the Star Wars universe was canon so they all had to fit together somehow. There was no singular 'rebel spaceships , striking from a hidden base' stealing the plans from the Empire and transmitting them to Princess Leia. Now we had numerous pieces of the plans (much like Luke's map in TFA) that R2 had to combine in order to have a full set. But this ignores that the Rebels just so happened to get the correct segments without any vital gaps but they didn't know this because they didn't study the plans before R2 combined them.

And don't even get me started on the trench run. Was it Keyan Farlander that destroyed the first Death Star? No it was Luke who you just happened to play as even though Keyan gets his own private awards ceremony for being the surviving Y-Wing in the battle. But then there was Splinter of the Mind's Eye where Vader accused Luke of being the one to shoot down his fighter even though Vader was the one behind Luke at the time and Han was the one doing the shooting (and even then it was technically his wingman).

The more demanding of the fandom insisted that everything that had Star Wars on it was actually Star Wars. At some point, because of the EU, C3PO and R2D2 wondered away from Captain Antilles and took part in the Droids series. At some point Jar Jar Binks was stranded on a desert island with his dad. And to top it all off you had Lucas saying that anything that he didn't make was from 'a different universe'.

Once you have demand for consistency meet multiple inconsistencies, something has to take precedence. Thus the different canon levels. If Vader was shown to be in two places during the same event, you had to figure out where they really were. If one comic said that the Executor was 30,000 km long while another source said 7,000 km, you had to figure out what was what.

Well, maybe not you, but the OCD elements of the fandom certainly did and there could nary be a wrinkle in the lore in their minds.

And that.

That is why I'm for them throwing away the EU. It was wholly necessary.

 

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Has anyone read here the Thrawn novel?
Does anyone else find the Thrawn in that novel essentially different from the Thrawn in Rebels?

Even when both are named the same and share some common traits like intelligence, interest on art, and a blue face, I found their demeanor vastly different.
In the novel he seems to regard the whole Empire thing as little else than a inconsequential warm up before the real thing. However, in Rebels he is totally a zealous cartoon villain obsessed with the Rebels, perhaps slightly constricted by the most distinctive traits of "book Thrawn".

I have the feeling that if book Thrawn met Rebels' Thrawn, they wouldn't recognize each other.

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10 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Has anyone read here the Thrawn novel?
Does anyone else find the Thrawn in that novel essentially different from the Thrawn in Rebels?

Even when both are named the same and share some common traits like intelligence, interest on art, and a blue face, I found their demeanor vastly different.
In the novel he seems to regard the whole Empire thing as little else than a inconsequential warm up before the real thing. However, in Rebels he is totally a zealous cartoon villain obsessed with the Rebels, perhaps slightly constricted by the most distinctive traits of "book Thrawn".

I have the feeling that if book Thrawn met Rebels' Thrawn, they wouldn't recognize each other.

You should address the post I replied to you with, first off.

Second, no. No, he's not obsessed with the Rebels. He does not necessarily seem to value this Empire or its assets all too much, either. He's hardly a "zealous cartoon villain". He's an excellent contrast to Hera and our heroes, and fairly consistently outplans them very well. He is far more keen on debilitation, apprehension, and interrogation. If not for Kanan, Hera would have spilled endless beans. No, you want a cartoon villain, Governor Pryce is that. Thrawn hates her for it. Absolutely loathes her.

As for the thrawn novel, the new one? No. No but I read most of the Heir to The Empire trilogy. I feel as though that Thrawn would look at this one and go, "Yeah he's definitely a lot like me."

Thrawn is one of the things Disney has hit every single shot with. Not only did they reintroduce a beloved character from the Expanded Universe that Disney oh so supposed despises with all its vigor and ire, but they've done him an immense amount of respect, given him a fantastic voice actor, and gave him a perfectly suitable theme.

I feel like complaining about Thrawn in Rebels is the last thing worth complaining about in this show.

Edited by Captain Lackwit

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8 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

I have the feeling that if book Thrawn met Rebels' Thrawn, they wouldn't recognize each other.

Wait, you mean that the various aspects of NewDisneyCanon don’t always agree?  No, say it isn’t so!  They promised it would be better!

 

i guess I’ll just go back to watching Droids and Ewoks cartoons while reading Han Solo at Stars End.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

You should address the post I replied to you with, first off.

Sorry, I didn't see the need of addressing anything there. I gave my opinion, you gave yours. I was going to reply to it but after someone said that we weren't talking about Rebels in the Rebels thread, and because I know how internet conversations usually evolve, I stopped myself.

Since you insist, I will say what I was going to say, then.

As you say in your answer, the reactions of characters like Ben, or Han, or Luke aren't outside the realm of what is credible in human beings in a dramatic story.
However here is where I have to drop off your train of thought: Star Wars never was a credible dramatic story, and it never was supposed to be one.

I will use a simile to illustrate my words: The Lord of the Rings versus Game of Thrones.
Both works are fantasy, and both stories are about wars, dragons, wraiths, magic, and so on. Also, both works have heroes. All the way until the last part of Game of Thrones where the main character, the hero, loses his head.
It's at that point where you are reading Game of Thrones and you say... "Ooookay, this is no Lord of the Rings".

Ned Stark is basically Aragorn until they chop his head off because of it. Because in that world heroes have no place. 

Back to Star Wars, Episodes 1-6 follow the same principle of Lords of the Rings. Good triumphs over Evil, because it has to. Because that is what is Right. Because that is what the story is about. No matter in how deep **** the heroes get into, the Universe plots to reward them with a victory because of their efforts and their suffering. Heroes can die, but only as a vehicle of ensuring a victory for their friends or the people they are protecting, or as a kind of redemption for moments of weakness. And if this moment of weakness happens, it will be something that you will get to see coming, witness, then even feel sorry for the hero, and perhaps even feel sympathy for them ("Oh, well. What other choice he had?").

Luke, Han, Leia are Star Wars heroes. That is, heroes in a Universe where heroes do exist and can exist, and their suffering is rewarded with triumph and "and they lived happy thereafter" endings. Even Vader is, in a sense, fitting for this since his moment of weakness (30 years, basically) is redeemed by self sacrifice in a cathartic scene where all his loses (fall to the dark side, Padme, his body, his life) are rewarded with the death of the dark lord of the Sith that threatens the whole galaxy and started it all.

Fast forward to Episodes 7-8 backstory:
So now Luke is a fallible guy that gets mentally destroyed by the fall of Ben into the dark side; that in turn is caused by the anguish of their relatives keeping a dark secret about him, what leads him to listen to the mysterious Snoke; that leads to our hero Luke wanting to kill him for it, only to doubt in the last moment, leading to Ben growing an immediate hatred for his uncle to the point of attempting to murder him and killing all his pupils, blah, blah, blah. Then his parents Han and Leia are demolished by the gravity of these evens and they have a mental breakdown that leads one to hide in her politics and the other to hide in his past hobbies.

Sorry, those aren't the heroes we know. Those are different characters in a different Universe. They are like turning The Lord of the Rings into Game of Thrones all of sudden.
What did Luke do wrong or differently to deserve that? Or Han or Leia?
Suddenly Aragorn got his head chopped off just because.

What leads me to the point where you and I will never agree:
You seem to think a story has an innate dignity, or respectability, for the fact of having been written by some author.
That the fact that someone wrote this succession of events for Luke, Han, Leia and Ben, it gives it the entitlement of being regarded as something worthy, and something that has all the right to be considered as good as anything else. Or that is the impression I get from this:
 

Quote

Because when you ignore stuff as Lucas, and then you change stuff on a whim, you're gonna hurt people. Karven Traviss outright quit Star Wars thanks to his treatment of the Mandalorians in The Clone Wars and you know what? Traviss' mandos were 100% better than CW's mandos, not even up for debate, they flat out frakkin' were, these new ones are drab, boring and lacking in any of that wild, unpredictable fire and personality. Even Sabine is dry, and she's designed NOT to be. This. This is thanks to lucas. This is "Ignoring **Canon**".

See where that gets us?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that you care about the feelings of a writer when their writings are discarded and replaced with something else.
Like if they felt offended, their heart being stabbed, because the words they wrote--- Sorry, forgive me: the Art they fathered! ...was considered not good enough by the creator of the Universe and was disposed of.

The fact is, was just a job. That guy got a paycheck for creating a product with characters imagined by someone else, in an universe imagined by someone else.
It's just printed words on paper, and no way how loud you say "But ART!" makes it any different.

This is the same discourse Pablo Hidalgo and the other guys in the Story Group that are writing the new stories keep repeating again and again when fans point out the problems in their writings. "Who cares about the lore. We want to tell our stories! Shh... We are doing Art here, nerds! If we need to change the universe we will, because we are making our art here. We want to tell what we want to tell. Shut up."

Writings have no feelings or deserve to be treated equally beside their own qualities. They aren't any different from the programming code I write for a living, and most likely don't take any more effort to write it either. Nobody would ever consider for a moment not to replace a piece of code that no longer is wanted because they could hurt the feelings of its author!
A work is as good as its quality.
And the definition of Quality is how good something is at doing what it is supposed to do.

How good the Story Group's tale about Miserable Luke, Miserable Han and Miserable Leia at being a Star Wars story? Does it fit the Universe? Not really. It's crap at it. It basically needs to redefine the Star Wars Universe to be able to even fit in. And most of it is basically rehashed, and what it isn't, it's totally out of character.

So no. I don't give a **** about the individuals that wrote that story, or how bad their feelings hurt when I say that their Star Wars story is crap. 
I don't care that story could work in some other Universe, or even in some other Star Wars Universe. I don't care that they had added internal anguish, misery, and cowardice to Star Wars heroes because they liked them more so; because Star Wars heroes never had the need of having any of that crap. I don't care that you think "But it's better writing!" because that is like saying that The Lord of the Rings is inherently worse than Game of Thrones.
They have created a story for an different universe, and that universe is not THE Star Wars Universe I care of, the one Lucas created.

 

Quote

As for the thrawn novel, the new one? No. No but I read most of the Heir to The Empire trilogy. I feel as though that Thrawn would look at this one and go, "Yeah he's definitely a lot like me."

Thrawn is one of the things Disney has hit every single shot with. Not only did they reintroduce a beloved character from the Expanded Universe that Disney oh so supposed despises with all its vigor and ire, but they've done him an immense amount of respect, given him a fantastic voice actor, and gave him a perfectly suitable theme.

I feel like complaining about Thrawn in Rebels is the last thing worth complaining about in this show.

I'm not complaining. And I do think Rebel's Thrawn is much closer to how he was in the old Thrawn's trilogy.
Thrawn is, all in all, the only character not created by Lucas I actually care of.
I was just commenting that the new Thrawn from the new book has much more going on with him, in his backstory, that makes him a bit different from how he was in his old trilogy, and how he is in Rebels.
In his old trilogy, and in Rebels, he was basically Evil Space Sherlock Napoleon. (Something I do like, don't take me wrong)
In his new novel, however, he is something else, with all that about the Chiss Ascendancy and his true goals within the Empire. He is definitely not evil, at least. Even when I would like to find someone that has read the new novel and can refute that impression.

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3 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

i guess I’ll just go back to watching Droids and Ewoks cartoons while reading Han Solo at Stars End.

Hey, other than Chewie making a hang glider out of a pterodactyl he’d just killed the Brian Daley Han Solo books were quality.

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3 hours ago, Azrapse said:

Has anyone read here the Thrawn novel?
Does anyone else find the Thrawn in that novel essentially different from the Thrawn in Rebels?

Even when both are named the same and share some common traits like intelligence, interest on art, and a blue face, I found their demeanor vastly different.
In the novel he seems to regard the whole Empire thing as little else than a inconsequential warm up before the real thing. However, in Rebels he is totally a zealous cartoon villain obsessed with the Rebels, perhaps slightly constricted by the most distinctive traits of "book Thrawn".

I have the feeling that if book Thrawn met Rebels' Thrawn, they wouldn't recognize each other.

I see your argument, but I credit that to different writers more than anything else.  Zahn wasn't really consulted for the show's depiction, and as such his version (the more accurate version, IMHO, since he is the original creator of the character)  The way I'm reconciling the differences are that like his semi-obsession with hunting down Nightswan, he sees the Ghost's crew as adversaries worthy of his intellect, a true challenge, and is going after them with a gusto.  

As for the Empire being a warm up, I took it to be that he needed the Empire intact, albeit leaderless, for his ultimate plans to unfold.  As such, the disorder, rebellion, and potential separatism of the Rebels in the show are a major threat to his plans, and must be dealt with. 

2 hours ago, Azrapse said:

I'm not complaining. And I do think Rebel's Thrawn is much closer to how he was in the old Thrawn's trilogy.
Thrawn is, all in all, the only character not created by Lucas I actually care of.
I was just commenting that the new Thrawn from the new book has much more going on with him, in his backstory, that makes him a bit different from how he was in his old trilogy, and how he is in Rebels.
In his old trilogy, and in Rebels, he was basically Evil Space Sherlock Napoleon. (Something I do like, don't take me wrong)
In his new novel, however, he is something else, with all that about the Chiss Ascendancy and his true goals within the Empire. He is definitely not evil, at least. Even when I would like to find someone that has read the new novel and can refute that impression.

 

I'm not sure Thrawn was ever really "evil."  Brutal, maybe, but even in the original Thrawn trilogy, his motivations were unclear.  Sure, he could be brutal, conniving, and more than a little callous, but he never seemed to do anything I would refer to as completely evil.  In the later Thrawn-centered books, (Hand of Thrawn, Survivor's Quest, and Outbound Flight) his motivations were more explained, and they line up quite nicely to the version of Thrawn we see in the new book.  If anything, he's a more flawed character in the new book, so as not to make him come off as the completely genius character he was originally. 

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40 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

I'm not sure Thrawn was ever really "evil."  Brutal, maybe, but even in the original Thrawn trilogy, his motivations were unclear.  Sure, he could be brutal, conniving, and more than a little callous, but he never seemed to do anything I would refer to as completely evil.  In the later Thrawn-centered books, (Hand of Thrawn, Survivor's Quest, and Outbound Flight) his motivations were more explained, and they line up quite nicely to the version of Thrawn we see in the new book.  If anything, he's a more flawed character in the new book, so as not to make him come off as the completely genius character he was originally. 

I have not read the later EU novels about Thrawn, but by reading summaries online it feels like the new canon Thrawn is closer to those late novels than to the original Thrawn trilogy.

For evil I mean stuff like making a production worker ride a defective swoop bike until it blows up. Or when he debuts in Rebels, one of the first dialogs goes a bit like this:
Agent Kallus: I heard that the civilian casualties in that battle were huge.
Thrawn: Bah, it was an unfortunate necessity.

This depiction of Thrawn seems to be very clearly trying to underline that even when he is more intelligent than the average Imperial villain, he is as evil and ruthless as any other.
I think the Rebels team wrote the season before they had any access to the new finished Thrawn novel, and they got a mismatch. They were more faithful to the old Thrawn, than to the new Thrawn.
The new Thrawn wouldn't have endangered the lives of countless civilians, much less handwave their deaths with such a sentence. The closest he is to show an evil decision in his new novel is when he accepts the fact that wookies are property of the Empire and must remain so.

Edited by Azrapse

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29 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

For evil I mean stuff like making a production worker ride a defective swoop bike until it blows up. Or when he debuts in Rebels, one of the first dialogs goes a bit like this:
Agent Kallus: I heard that the civilian casualties in that battle were huge.
Thrawn: Bah, it was an unfortunate necessity.

1

Guess its a difference of opinion, but I don't see either action as being evil.  Making production workers test equipment they've been sabotaging is an effective way of preventing and punishing sabotage.  Poetic justice, while cruel, isn't really evil.
And, like it or not, civilian casualties will occur in military campaigns.  If coupled with Thrawn's overall goals, stabilizing the galaxy so it can deal with a bigger threat, it's again not evil, as long as he's not inflicting unnecessary collateral damage. (which the statement implies he did not)

29 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

This depiction of Thrawn seems to be very clearly trying to underline that even when he is more intelligent than the average Imperial villain, he is as evil and ruthless as any other.
I think the Rebels team wrote the season before they had any access to the new finished Thrawn novel, and they got a mismatch. They were more faithful to the old Thrawn, than to the new Thrawn.

1

Ruthless, yes, evil no.  It's very apparent that there's a disconnect between the writing of the book and the show, to the point where I think Zahn said in an interview that the show was written without him, and he was only informed of it so he could include details in his book.  That's why he's more of your typical mustache twirling villain than elsewhere.

38 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

The new Thrawn wouldn't have endangered the lives of countless civilians, much less handwave their deaths with such a sentence. The closest he is to show an evil decision in his new novel is when he accepts the fact that wookies are property of the Empire and must remain so.

2

And I have to disagree.  I think the Thrawn from the new book would have endangered the lives of civilians if he felt it was necessary.  While he may feel bad about it, he will still would have carried out his plans if it was necessary to do so.  Remember, he allowed another Imperial admiral to make a fool out of himself, and sacrificed a fair number of Imperial personnel in the process.  

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Weird. I would argue that the Rebellion and all they fought for was more successful in the new canon than in the old. They actually got, what, 25 years of peace. Whereas the old NR only got 10 between major wars. The whole "meant nothing" to me is just a weird argument. The name is Star WARS. There is always going to be a war. 

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7 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

Poetic justice, while cruel, isn't really evil.
Ruthless, yes, evil no. 

Well, then it's just a matter of what we understand by Evil. Obviously Good and Evil are manichaeisms. Nobody is good, nobody is evil. Everyone has their set of values and motivations and act in consequence.
Me saying that Rebels' Thrawn is evil is like if I said that Indiana Jones' Belloq or his nazi friends are evil.
Sure, somebody could say "No, they aren't evil. They just have a set of goal and convictions that make cruelty and ruthlessness necessary to achieve them". Okay, whatever. That is what Evil is in Star Wars. The bad guys.

I concede, through, that there are some characters that walk on the outer side of Good and Evil in late Star Wars. Like Cassian Andor and Saw Gerrera.

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2 hours ago, Major Tom said:

Hey, other than Chewie making a hang glider out of a pterodactyl he’d just killed the Brian Daley Han Solo books were quality.

Uh yeah I know!  My point was that everyone has forgotten that there were spinoff SW media before the ‘EU’ era.  What, the 90s stuff was more special since there were ‘continuity officers’ in charge of making everything jibe?  That sure didn’t keep 90% of the EU from sucking.  Sure, go ahead and complain about Han hanging out with a green space rabbit while remaking the Magnificent Seven but that was still better than anything Kevin J Anderson or Bob Salvatore ever wrote.

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