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STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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37 minutes ago, eMeM said:

TCW Grievous is consistent with the movie Grievous, unlike the one from tge 2D cartoon which seems to be based only on the concept art.

Also everything in the 2D cartoon was very obviously exaggerated and over the top, I don't understand how anyone could look at the events from that show and conclude that this depiction of the events must be the closest to the truth.

I think they probably just ended up showing Gendy the concept art for Greivous and that he was a general who used lightsabers and let him fill in the rest for the show, which then sort of fueled how authors wrote him in comics and in their books...right up to that point of the movie. If we want anyone to blame about Grevious it is Lucas for wanting a villain who would run away as soon as things weren't in his favor. Clone Wars just continued the film's version of the character. 

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16 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

I think they probably just ended up showing Gendy the concept art for Greivous and that he was a general who used lightsabers and let him fill in the rest for the show, which then sort of fueled how authors wrote him in comics and in their books...right up to that point of the movie. If we want anyone to blame about Grevious it is Lucas for wanting a villain who would run away as soon as things weren't in his favor. Clone Wars just continued the film's version of the character. 

We're bringing up Greivous again? :P I like Gendy's version. Even though the entire show is over-the-top, Grievous still stood out as super powerful to me, and the VA did a great job to.

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2 hours ago, eMeM said:

TCW Grievous is consistent with the movie Grievous, unlike the one from tge 2D cartoon which seems to be based only on the concept art.

Also everything in the 2D cartoon was very obviously exaggerated and over the top, I don't understand how anyone could look at the events from that show and conclude that this depiction of the events must be the closest to the truth.

Well the 2D Grievous did get his chest crushed, which would explain his weakened state, furthermore the cartoon is obviously over the top and has it's corny and cheesy moments, but so does every other Star Wars animation.
But this is a discussion for some other time and place. 

I just wanted to make the point that I'm dissapointed with CW characters in genereal, Grievous being one example

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9 hours ago, markcsoul said:

When it comes to Clone Wars vs Rebels, I find they have a lot of similarities and differences, while both being enjoyable in their own ways.  They definitely both have their share of episodes that range from amazing to mediocre.  Both shows got better as they went on, with the first seasons of both definitely being the weakest.  In terms of one being more "kiddy" or more "mature" than the other, I've seen arguments both ways, and not sure where I'd side on it.  They are both more mature than most kids cartoon shows though that's for sure.

That being said, I do prefer Clone Wars over Rebels for several reason.

1) The production values were much higher on Clone Wars which mean you can have large scale battles on a regular basis, and the animation in general was higher quality.

2) While both shows featured very stylized animation, I found clone wars easier to get used to as it was mainly the characters that were stylized, whereas for rebels the vehicles are as well, and some of them, especially the tie fighters, really don't look right.

3) I liked how clone wars was able to tell a variety of stories because they weren't focused on just the core group of characters pretty much allt he time like rebels.  Some episodes focused solely on clones and/or other jedi, some featured political characters mostly like padme/bail/palpatine/etc, and so on.

4) I found in general the original characters on CW much more interesting than Rebels.  It shows something when several of my favorites (as well as many other fans) made it onto rebels like Ahsoka, Rex, and Hondo.

5) To add to #4, there were SO many original characters added on CW that were great, whereas other than the main crew on rebels there haven't been a lot of other original characters that have really stood out.

But again this is all just my opinion.

I think they both succeed at showing the scope of their distinct battles.

For TCW, the whole point is that it was an epic conflict involving multiple worlds, and springing back and forth between multiple characters and viewpoints reinforced that.

For Rebels, the whole point is that rebelling is a personal choice, from the grassroots up, and slowly escalates upward - first it was just on one world. Then it was a part of a single cell. Now, it's showing how multiple cells, all from that same grassroots origin, came together and formed something strong enough to challenge the Empire.

Your other points are pretty much personal stuff and impossible to argue for or against, and some of which I have a lack of opinion on.

But about the characters... the ones that show up in Rebels received multiple episodes and a lot of development in TCW - whereas in Rebels the intentional focus is on the central cast. Do you remember prince fishface from the Mon Cal arc? Or the little general or colonel or whatever in charge of that stupid droid infiltration mission? There were a LOT of thrown-away characters that showed up for an episode or three and then were never heard from again. For every memorable guest star, there were four or five that made no impression.

 

IMHO... I think that on the balance, if you remove ALL of the worst (ie, Lucas-'inspired') episodes of TCW and change the watch order to chronological rather than "All mixed up because we're deep storytellers you gaiz", you're right. TCW is the better story when it starts with Domino Squad and ends with Yoda discovering the deepest secrets of the Force just before RotS.

But - BUT BUT BUT - if you include all of those absolutely ***, go-nowhere and tell nothing interesting stories like Zillo Beast, Malevolence, Gulliver's Travels (with Droids!), Jar Jar Gets A Princess Girlfriend, and so on - literally half of the episodes ended up on my delete list for being wretched or just rehashes of previous 'laser battles on the ground pew pew pew' episodes...

Rebels is by far the better story. Very little wasted space, it knows where it's going, each story point is carefully chosen to build up to a new whole.

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Ahh, evil Lucas strikes back, if you removed Lucas-inspired episodes from TCW you wouldn't have much left, as he was very involved in the production, came up with many of the main storylines and characters and pumped his own personal money to ensure the highest possible animation quality.

Filoni is very much the personification of "Lucas-inspired", so I guess no Rebels either.

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I really don't think TCW Grievous and the movie version are anything alike. TCW took a single line from one of Grievous's enemies (implicit bias) "He will run and hide like the coward he is" (or something to that effect) and ran with it. Of course that's just Jedi arrogance. What non force user wouldn't strategically retreat after both your hands are chopped off and you're faced down with two jedi? The MAN JUMPED INTO SPACE! That's not cowardly at all. Anakain and others are legitimately concerned Grievous could defeat Obi Wan during that mission, you don't feel that way when you're opponent is super lame. 

If you wish to read my Grievous you will find the following in the spoiler tag below. 

 

 My biggest problem with TCW is that it subverted one of the best characters in the prequels to elevate characters that either didnt need to exist or had their storylines already resolved (Cad Bane, Savage Opress, Darth Maul). WHY?! Why have those guys do what Grievous was always meant to do? You never make your villain worse, you always make them better and the writers behind the change with Grievous should be verbally smacked for that. The writer of the episode where he fights gungans and gets beaten should literally be slapped, at that point the writers were just raising a middle finger to the audience. It's not even a matter of Grievous being lame in the first season, they never NEVER NEVER try to make him cool and its beyond frustrating not even in the recent books like the one with Quinlan Vos. 

You want to show Grievous as amazing? Have him only ever fight Jedi we know don't make it to Episode III and maybe beat the ones we do know like Mace or Shaak Ti, there problem solved. Go watch the fight between Obi Wan and Grievous, and you'll realize their dialogue implies that fight is the first time either have ever actually fought and that it doesnt make sense they've been shown dueling repeatedly throughout TCW. 

I think there's a lot I enjoy about TCW but the more these issues come up like Grievous the more I realize how much of it I actually hated, especially as someone who loves the prequels. I feel TCW tried to pull damage control and my philosophy is you stand by your product and try to make it better.

That's why the more I think about it I love Rebels in comparison to TCW. At least Rebels is sanctimonious to its source material and treats its main villains with reverence. Tarkin, Thrawn, Yularen, and Vader are all amazingly and respectfully done!

EDIT: Its probably very clear from how much I wrote canon Grievous really really bothers me. For me its like there was one thing about the prequels that shined with the rest of the saga and he got destroyed, why couldn't they just let us have this? 

EDIT: Its probably very clear from how much I wrote canon Grievous really really bothers me. For me its like there was one thing about the prequels that shined with the rest of the saga and he got destroyed, why couldn't they just let us have this? 

Edited by Forresto

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8 hours ago, eMeM said:

Also everything in the 2D cartoon was very obviously exaggerated and over the top, I don't understand how anyone could look at the events from that show and conclude that this depiction of the events must be the closest to the truth.

I think you mean canon.  There is no "truth" in a fictional work.

And even then, I think it's less about what's canon than about what's awesome.  It's also a lot of people's first exposure to the character, so it doesn't help than the canon portrayal is a huge step down from the initial one.

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Grievous just suffers from a lot of the pacing problems created by the prequel's structure.  Had there been a film with any real Clone Wars content where he could have actually been some kind of developed villain he might have fared better, but the way he just kind of shows up at the end of the trilogy as Obi-Wan's boss fight made it pretty hard to treat him as a real character worth investing in.

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5 hours ago, eMeM said:

Ahh, evil Lucas strikes back, if you removed Lucas-inspired episodes from TCW you wouldn't have much left, as he was very involved in the production, came up with many of the main storylines and characters and pumped his own personal money to ensure the highest possible animation quality.

Filoni is very much the personification of "Lucas-inspired", so I guess no Rebels either.

The episodes of TCW that he had the most direct input on, if you watch the Behind the Scenes stuff, are also uniformly the worst episodes. Zillo Beast? Direct Lucas notion and direct control over it. The last three episodes, Voices/Destiny/Sacrifice? Lucas just said, "Well, if you've got all the stuff done then go ahead..." and they are among the most amazing things that Star Wars has ever produced.

George Lucas... was a lucky man. He had all the right friends at the exact right moment to take his good ideas (I want to do Hidden Fortress in space like the old Flash Gordon serials!) and keep him from making the massive mistakes that would have made it... well, like the Flash Gordon movie from the 1970s. His wife Marcia, Francis Ford Coppola, a little-known man by the name of Spielburg, actors like Alec Guinness who were allowed room to make the characters theirs, script doctors like Brian De Palma who turned the title crawl from a 6 paragraph, EIGHT MINUTE monstrosity to its current concise form...

Want to see what Lucas does if left to his own devices? We don't need to visit the prequels. We can watch the Star Wars Holiday Special and find out what kind of writer, director, and editor he is. There's a reason he tried to destroy every copy of it: Because it shows how bad he is at his job.

There is a percentage of fanboys *ahem* out there who seem to believe that Lucas defecates gold, urinates champagne, and can do no wrong - and George Lucas is among those believers.

I love Star Wars, and I recognize and admire Lucas for creating it. But I also know that he bears the blame for almost all of the worst, most unlikable stuff in Star Wars, and the best stuff is not because of him, but often in SPITE of him.

Look at how he erased Marcia Lucas from the Star Wars legacy. The trench scene was 20 minutes long and had two runs by Luke, one AFTER Han Solo rescues him, and had no music before Marcia got her hands on it. Her exact words to Lucas was, "If the audience doesn't cheer when Han Solo comes in at the last second in the Millennium Falcon to help Luke when he's being chased by Darth Vader, the picture doesn't work."

She was by the words of multiple people around them both responsible for editing, rewriting, and keeping some of the dumbest things out of A New Hope - and adding some of the best bits. Threepio as a sort of awkward effeminate fellow? Marcia. Ben Kenobi dying? Marcia. Luke Skywalker being a young man? Marcia. She was there to nudge him in the right direction from the beginning...

And because of a bitter divorce, he removed her entirely. Always refused to give her any credits. Even used his influence to make sure she never worked in Hollywood again.

"Also, I pee champagne and poop gold, what did she contribute anyway? Now where's that idea I had for a Rasta alien that gets the poopy on his feet..."

Edited by iamfanboy

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What a load of BS. One thing is believing Lucas to be flawless, another thing is blind hate reinforced by lies, like what you present.

Sure Marcia and other people helped him shape the movie but pretending all the good ideas were in spite of him is just.. unveliveably deluded.

Lucas had very little input on the holiday special. 

If he was a person you think he is, surely he wouldn't want the copies destroyed if it was his work, as he apparently can't see his flaws.

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22 minutes ago, eMeM said:

What a load of BS. One thing is believing Lucas to be flawless, another thing is blind hate reinforced by lies, like what you present.

Sure Marcia and other people helped him shape the movie but pretending all the good ideas were in spite of him is just.. unveliveably deluded.

Lucas had very little input on the holiday special. 

If he was a person you think he is, surely he wouldn't want the copies destroyed if it was his work, as he apparently can't see his flaws.

This. I never understand the George Lucas hate that many Star Wars fans have. Without GL, we don't have SW! Also it's his idea, so he can take it in any direction he wants. If he wants to make episodes of a children's cartoon about giant monsters, then that is his choice. Even if it is utter garbage, he can do that. Is everything he's ever done perfect? Of course not. But telling stories you don't like or find entertaining doesn't make him a hack. The only issue I have with GL is the many small details between the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy that don't line up properly. That has nothing to do with with his abilities as a film maker and more to do with his attention to detail. 

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There are many incredible parts of George Lucas but he has many weaknesses that others have pointed out and unfortunately GL doesnt understand his own weaknesses. He doesnt understand them and he doesnt try to counterbalance them and the latter is his own fault. If I tended to overwrite I would seek out someone who I can trust, work with, and who can help me be more concise. 

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When you come down to it, George Lucas is a fantastic idea man. But, like many ideas, they need an editor to come through to help perfect it and cut away the questionable bits. Lucas didn't have that with the prequels and it shows. ESB had that, and it is generally considered the best Star Wars movie. 

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24 minutes ago, DarthEnderX said:

I'm going to guess it's because he made 3 bad Star Wars movies in a row.

After he made 3 great Star Wars movies and created the whole universe. And while the prequels are sub par, my biggest issue is the lack of continuity between them and the originals. They stories and universe building was still pretty good. 

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2 hours ago, JJFDVORAK said:

After he made 3 great Star Wars movies and created the whole universe.

Granted, but keep in mind that a lot of Star Wars fans of today have never known that George.  Star Wars was just this thing that had been around since either before they were born or were kids.

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Having finished Thrawn book literally 2min ago, I have to say. The dynamics between admiral and Pryce in Rebels, do make more sense. However, Pryce lost o lot in my eyes. At first I liked but with her subsequent actions less.

Anyway, Rebels' producer must not dare to kill Thrawn. He has galaxy to save.?

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I really think the new Thrawn novel has made the Grand Admiral one of the most compelling characters in Star Wars. I love EU Thrawn but canon Thrawn is far more sympathetic and interesting because of the conflict of interests. 

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4 minutes ago, Forresto said:

I really think the new Thrawn novel has made the Grand Admiral one of the most compelling characters in Star Wars. I love EU Thrawn but canon Thrawn is far more sympathetic and interesting because of the conflict of interests. 

And this, ladies and gentlemen.

This right here, is why I have faith in Disney's handling of the IP.

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On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:51 AM, Ghost XV15 said:

Well the 2D Grievous did get his chest crushed, which would explain his weakened state, furthermore the cartoon is obviously over the top and has it's corny and cheesy moments, but so does every other Star Wars animation.
But this is a discussion for some other time and place. 

I just wanted to make the point that I'm dissapointed with CW characters in genereal, Grievous being one example

I see what you did there :)

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1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

And this, ladies and gentlemen.

This right here, is why I have faith in Disney's handling of the IP.

Yeah, only small things bother me...

Like Thrawn being a completely different character in the show and in the book due to the standard whitewashing procedure called "Classic Zahn".

Zahn should never, under any circumstances, be allowed to write more than one book/trilogy about any character he created.

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Whitewashing tends to refer to casting so im also a little confused at this as well.

I also disagree that Thrawn in the new book and the show are nothing alike. Thrawn in the show is only ever shown hunting down the rebels and in the end is ruthless, which is what he's like in the book. The rebels are an active threat to his long game plan. Im curious to hear how you think they're different.

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In regards to Lucas, I do find it kind of funny that when some fans likes certain aspects of star wars, they say it's because lucas had help, and when they don't like certain aspects of star wars, it was lucas' fault.  It can't be both ways.

Yes he had help on the OT, but he was still a huge part of it's success.  And no he was not a one man show in the PT not listening to anyone, he had a producer, he had people work on the scripts, he had his director friends view early screenings.

Since most newer fans like most if not all aspects of star wars, they probably find little to hate about lucas.  Between all the iconic stuff he's created through star wars and indy he's kind of a modern day Walt Disney for how he'll likely be remembered.  And of course having star wars land opening soon is truly fitting.

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