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STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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It looks like the history of the Mandalorians goes a bit like this:

  • Around 1000ish the Mandalorians are the marauding menace they were in Legends KotOR. They war with the Republic and the Jedi, sacking Coruscant at some point.
  • The Republic eventually defeats them and Mandalore gets turned into a desert in the process. This crippling defeat and the near total destruction of the Mandalorians puts an end to their campaigns of conquest, although they remain a warrior people.
  • By about 40 - 30 BBY Mandalore is in a state of cultural crisis: a movement called the New Mandalorians has risen which advocates non-violence (as seen in Rebels combat is a way of resolving disputes amongst Mandalorians and this presumably causes a lot of unnecessary injury and death.) There are also hardline factions that call for a full return of the old way of conquest where Mandalore is feared and takes whatever it wants by force.
  • When Satine Kryze becomes the ruler of Mandalore she sympathises heavily with the New Mandalorians. Fearing the death of their culture the traditionalist factions attempt to remove her by force, starting the Mandalorian Civil War. Given their hostility to Death Watch the Protectors presumably are on the establishment side in this war.
  • This civil war is so brutal it depopulates Mandalore and turns Satine, the New Mandalorians and the surviving populace full-blown pacifist. Those who refuse to embrace pacifism are sent into exile (presumably this is when the Protectors leave for Concord Dawn).
  • The traditionalist faction survives as the Death Watch, led by Pre Vizla. He realises to take Mandalore he must win over the hearts and minds of the Mandalorian people as the New Mandalorians did: he must expose their military weakness and contrast it to the military strength of the old ways.
  • Vizla's first attempt as shown in TCW is to aid the CIS in order to provoke a Republic invasion of Mandalore: he can then use the military occupation and historical hostility to the Republic to win the people over. His plans are thwarted by the Jedi.
  • Vizla later finds Maul and the two form an alliance to take Mandalore and share power. Mandalore is pacifist and neutral: neither the Republic nor the CIS will aid it unless it takes a side in the Clone Wars, something Satine will never do. Maul is therefore able to ransack the capital, Sundari, with the military forces of the various crime syndicates he's gained influence over. Pre Vizla then "intervenes", defeats the syndicates, declares himself Manda'lor and double crosses Maul. The Death Watch becomes the ruling faction of Manda'lor with the support of the populace.
  • Maul kills Vizla in single combat and declares himself Manda'lor. This causes a rift in the Death Watch: most recognise Maul's legitimacy (he killed Manda'lor and is therefore the strongest warrior in their eyes) but a significant number reject him as a non-Mandalorian outsider. The Death Watch splits into the Maul-loyal Supercommandos and the Vizla-loyal Nite Owls and Mandalore is once again in a state of civil war. Obi-Wan Kenobi is captured attempting to rescue Satine but escapes with the aid of the Nite Owls: they're willing to risk a Republic invasion to stop Maul.
  • This time the state of Mandalore does trigger a Republic invasion: the Siege of Mandalore is one of the thus far untold stories and would have been the finale of TCW. It ends with Maul's defeat, Order 66, Rex and Ahsoka going into hiding and an Imperial occupation of Mandalore.

How to we get to where we are now?

 

As of the Siege Mandalore is ruled by Maul's Supercommandos with the Nite Owls being an insurgent force. With Maul's defeat by the Republic I'd wager the Supercommandos swore loyalty to the Empire (hence Imperial Supercommandos). The Empire as an expansionist dictatorship follows their ways (roughly), it defeated Maul and they've no issue swearing loyalty to an outsider that defeats their leader. This is heavily supported by the fact that the Imperial Supercommando leader, Gar Saxon, used to be one of Maul's Supercommandos.

 

The Nite Owls presumably become the "loyalists" mentioned by Gar Saxon in the trailer above: like the Protectors they believe that only Mandalorians can rule the Mandalorians although they're still probably mostly Death Watch in ideology. While Fenn Rau does serve the Empire initially he does it to keep the Empire out of Protectorate space: he joins the Rebels when his capture makes that no longer a possibility.

 

I can't find a bone to pick with that thorough assessment! Well done sir, you've either made Pablo Hidalgo proud or concerned that you may be a young upstart  :P

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Although it's confirmed that Bo Katan is returning this season so maybe it'll just be her. 

 

For some reason I really want another Kast around... ;)

 

To the contrary, I think the signs bar one point to Rook Kast. The helmet signs on her helmet in Son of Dathomir (created after Rebels was put into production) that match Sabine's combined with her physical appearance suggests to me that Rook Kast is her mother.

 

Considering that Rook Kast is a Maul Supercommando (which become the Imperial Supercommandos1) that makes things interesting.

 

There is one piece of evidence pointing to Bo-Katan as Sabine's mother: the owl on her pauldron. Bo-Katan is the leader of the Nite Owls, the Death Watch faction that rejected Maul and presumably rejects the Empire as the rulers of Mandalore. It could simply mean that Sabine has connections of the "loyalist" insurgents though.

 

1: If you want some evidence for that beyond the name match, the Supercommandos were the Death Watch faction willing to accept Maul, an outsider as their leader. The Empire defeats Maul at the end of the Clone Wars. They remodeled their armour after Maul and the Imperial Supercommandos remodel theirs after the Empire's trooper aesthetic. Rook Kast's fellow Maul Supercommando in Son of Dathomir is Gar Saxon. The leader of the Imperial Supercommando group in Rebels's name? Saxon.

 

The owl has no connection to the Nite Owls.

JuHhOw8.png

 

 

So... She's painting Ezra's thoughts on her armor? And next episode he's going to hear about her family? I smell the distant redolence of romance^_^

 

Though that smell could also be the friendzone. In which case oops. And ouch.  :wacko:

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Although it's confirmed that Bo Katan is returning this season so maybe it'll just be her. 

 

For some reason I really want another Kast around... ;)

 

To the contrary, I think the signs bar one point to Rook Kast. The helmet signs on her helmet in Son of Dathomir (created after Rebels was put into production) that match Sabine's combined with her physical appearance suggests to me that Rook Kast is her mother.

 

Considering that Rook Kast is a Maul Supercommando (which become the Imperial Supercommandos1) that makes things interesting.

 

There is one piece of evidence pointing to Bo-Katan as Sabine's mother: the owl on her pauldron. Bo-Katan is the leader of the Nite Owls, the Death Watch faction that rejected Maul and presumably rejects the Empire as the rulers of Mandalore. It could simply mean that Sabine has connections of the "loyalist" insurgents though.

 

1: If you want some evidence for that beyond the name match, the Supercommandos were the Death Watch faction willing to accept Maul, an outsider as their leader. The Empire defeats Maul at the end of the Clone Wars. They remodeled their armour after Maul and the Imperial Supercommandos remodel theirs after the Empire's trooper aesthetic. Rook Kast's fellow Maul Supercommando in Son of Dathomir is Gar Saxon. The leader of the Imperial Supercommando group in Rebels's name? Saxon.

 

The owl has no connection to the Nite Owls.

JuHhOw8.png

 

 

So... She's painting Ezra's thoughts on her armor? And next episode he's going to hear about her family? I smell the distant redolence of romance^_^

 

Though that smell could also be the friendzone. In which case oops. And ouch.  :wacko:

 

Psst, Sabine's way outta Ezra's leugue. Wedge on the other hand.....

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JuHhOw8.png

 

 

So... She's painting Ezra's thoughts on her armor? And next episode he's going to hear about her family? I smell the distant redolence of romance^_^

 

Though that smell could also be the friendzone. In which case oops. And ouch.  :wacko:

 

 

It would be hilarious if that's what turns Ezra to the dark side. His continued attempts that just all fail!  

 

Sabine: "I have the friend zone Ezra! Don't try it!"

Ezra: "You underestimate my persistence!"

Edited by Forresto

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It looks like the history of the Mandalorians goes a bit like this:

  • Around 1000ish the Mandalorians are the marauding menace they were in Legends KotOR. They war with the Republic and the Jedi, sacking Coruscant at some point.

The Sith are destroyed around 1000-ish, and the "Not Old" Republic rises from the ashes of the Old (I'm calling it "Not Old" to distinguish it from the post-Empire New Republic).

 

Since according to the Tarkin novel, there was a Sith shrine on Coruscant some 5000-odd years before the events of the novel, maybe more, the Sith might possibly have taken Coruscant and ruled it very early on - there may have been a huge gap between "Fall of the Old Republic" (and Mandos taking the Darksaber from the first Coruscant Jedi Temple) and "Rise of the Not Old Republic"

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"This lightsaber was stolen from your temple by my ancestors during the fall of the Old Republic." - Pre Vizsla

 

The collapse of the Older Republic involved the Mandalorians in some manner.

 

Possibly as mercenaries for the Sith. The question is - when did the sacking of the old Coruscant Temple and the Fall of Coruscant take place?

 

According to preview reports from Star Wars Propaganda: A History of Persuasive Art in the Galaxy readers (from people who have gotten early copies) around 1000 BBY, the Sith were driven off Coruscant, and the 1000 year Republic described in AOTC ("I will not have this Republic that has stood for 1000 years be split in two" "There hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic") first came into being.

 

Quite a change from Legends, in which the Sith only occupied Coruscant for a very short time, in the The Old Republic game era.

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I would point out that there are (at least) four female mandolorians in that throneroom.

Bo Katan is obvious. And Filloni has said in interview it's not her.

One female mandolorian seems glued to the side of the throne and seems a good candidate for Kast.

Two female mandolorians fight their way out with Bo Katan, and one of them seems to be her right hand woman in the later fight/battle scenes.

Hi

My vote for Momma Wren would be on one of the two unnamed lasses. Her begin Bo Katan's right hand woman certainly would work with the rumour that Bo is back.

(Gods my autocorrect did not enjoy that post)

Edited by Arterial Spray

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I would point out that there are (at least) four female mandolorians in that throneroom.

Bo Katan is obvious. And Filloni has said in interview it's not her.

One female mandolorian seems glued to the side of the throne and seems a good candidate for Kast.

Two female mandolorians fight their way out with Bo Katan, and one of them seems to be her right hand woman in the later fight/battle scenes.

Hi

My vote for Momma Wren would be on one of the two unnamed lasses. Her begin Bo Katan's right hand woman certainly would work with the rumour that Bo is back.

(Gods my autocorrect did not enjoy that post)

 

 

1:30 - note the colorful explosion of the missile launched by one of the Mandalorians, that's the same type of explosives Sabine uses ;)

 

(yeah, most likely a coincidence, I don't believe they were thinking that far into the future when making TCW, but stil a cool detail)

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If Vizsla's historical knowledge is accurate during the Fall of the Old Republic, which would be just over a 1000 years before the Naboo Crisis.

 

If there's a Sith Shrine on Coruscant 5000-odd years before the Naboo crisis:

 

 

"Alert me when the ship makes planetfall on Murkhana," Sidious said.

The droid bowed its head. "I will, Your Majesty."

The two of them were in Sidious's lair, a small rock-walled enclosure beneath the deepest of the Palace's several sublevels that had once been an ancient Sith shrine. That the Jedi had raised their Temple over the shrine had for a thousand years been one of the most closely guarded secrets of those Sith Lords who had perpetuated and implemented the revenge strategy of the Jedi Order's founders. Even the most powerful of Dark Side Adepts believed that shrines of the sort existed only on Sith worlds remote from Coruscant, and even the most powerful of the Jedi believed that the power inherent in the shrine had been neutralized and successfully capped. In truth, that power had seeped upward and outward since its entombment, infiltrating the hallways and rooms above, and weakening the Jedi Order much as the Sith Masters had secretly infiltrated the corridors of political power and toppled the Republic.

Save for Sidious, no sentient being in close to five thousand years had set foot in the shrine. The room's excavation and and restoration had been carried out by machines under the supervision of 11-4D.

 

 

 

- maybe the Old Republic "fell" 5000 years before, there was a 4000 year Sith Empire - and then the Sith Empire fell and a Republic arose?

Edited by Ironlord

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I'm liking the direction the GCW Mandalorians are taking.

 

I think I actually prefer the Filoni Mandalore to the old canon one.

Well to throw my 2 cents in, I absolutely hated what TCW did with Mandalore and the Mandalorians. First off the planet, someone else said it, the dense jungle planet was much more interesting then a barren planet that people still live on because of sentimentality. And the pacifists make no sense. There was clearly a civil war, how did they win if they are pacifists? There was definitely story potential with them, but to completely undercut the supercommandos and act like they only ever existed thousands of years ago is silly. Now Rebels, on the other hand, appears to slowly be bringing supercommandos back, so this could get interesting.

But yea, the old culture was better. Ancient warrior clans, living in a dense jungle in the Outer Rim, was a far more interesting story (even if Traviss wasn't that great a writer), then a bunch of pacifists living in cities on a planet that is completely uninhabitable.

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 There was definitely story potential with them, but to completely undercut the supercommandos and act like they only ever existed thousands of years ago is silly. 

 

I thought it was made pretty clear that Satine's father was a warlord, and that the time in which the pacifists took over (with the support of the Republic and the Jedi) was not too long after that mission in which Qui-Gon and a young Obi-Wan were sent to bodyguard Satine? Obi-Wan and Satine do banter about that mission in the first Season 2 Mandalore episodes.

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Mandalore had a warrior past but, by the time of the Clone Wars, adopted the pacifist ideals of the New Mandalorian government, led by Duchess Satine Kryze. This led to conflict with Death Watch, a group of Mandalorians who wanted to turn to their culture’s warrior ways.

Years of war left the planet inhospitable, forcing the Mandalorians to live within domed cities. A pacifist regime came to power at the end of these wars, led by Duchess Satine Kryze, while those who refused to give up their warrior ways were exiled to the moon Concordia.

Following the end of Mandalorian Civil War, the Mandalorian warriors were exiled to the moon of Concordia where most of the warriors died out. However, the survivors regrouped and began calling themselves the Death Watch. They were then led in secret by Concordia's governor, Pre Vizsla of Clan Vizsla and the Duchess Satine Kryze's sister, Bo-Katan.

It's pretty clear that the war was between Death Watch, and the Pacifists, not the Supercommandos and the Pacifists.

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It's pretty clear that the war was between Death Watch, and the Pacifists, not the Supercommandos and the Pacifists.

 

 

Sure - but the Mandalorian Civil War, with supercommandos, took place in Satine's time, not thousands of years before - and it was the survivors of that civil war that called themselves the Death Watch.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mandalorian_Civil_War

 

That said, it's Legends sources rather than Newcanon sources that specifically call her father a "chieftain" or a "warlord".

Edited by Ironlord

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I'm liking the direction the GCW Mandalorians are taking. I think I actually prefer the Filoni Mandalore to the old canon one.

Well to throw my 2 cents in, I absolutely hated what TCW did with Mandalore and the Mandalorians. First off the planet, someone else said it, the dense jungle planet was much more interesting then a barren planet that people still live on because of sentimentality. And the pacifists make no sense. There was clearly a civil war, how did they win if they are pacifists? There was definitely story potential with them, but to completely undercut the supercommandos and act like they only ever existed thousands of years ago is silly. Now Rebels, on the other hand, appears to slowly be bringing supercommandos back, so this could get interesting.But yea, the old culture was better. Ancient warrior clans, living in a dense jungle in the Outer Rim, was a far more interesting story (even if Traviss wasn't that great a writer), then a bunch of pacifists living in cities on a planet that is completely uninhabitable.

Are you kidding? I loved reading the old Legends stories too, but generic super warrior culture living on generic jungle planet is far and away less interesting then once violent culture living in domed habitats on a war torn planet that exiled the losing faction in the previous war to the moon. The Mandalore arcs were some of the most interesting in TCW because they dealt seriously with cultural and political tensions, and the ramifications the clone wars had for neutral planets.

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It took me a while to accept the new canon Mandalore, but once I did it was for the better I think. The legends stuff is still somewhat in tact. There are mandalorians out there who follow the old ways. 

 

At the time of TCW there were essentially three groups

 

The New Mandalorians

Death Watch

And everyone else who didn't like either of the previous two. 

 

Though I think in Season 5 of TCW they pretty much wiped away all of the pacifists. 

 

Pre Vizla: "Hey let's be warriors again!"

 

Everyone: "Yeah alright sounds good."

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