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Captain Lackwit

STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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Posted (edited)

Just saw the finale. Wow, that was really bad.

I liked the back and forth between Thrawn and Ezra, and how Thrawn just had the upper hand because he was smarter. Ezra going up there was also nice. So far so good. I had my hopes up when Zeb sacrificed himself, and George and the Pig were shot. No clue why two of them had to come back, but that brought some actual  tension for the first time in the entire series. It made me believe, for a few seconds, that Ezra might die. That Hera+Chopper might just get out in time.

 

But... space whales. A rebel victory. Ahsoka lives. Sabine lives. "Commander" Rex lives. (e: Rex is cool though)

Where were all these people? I

The space whales are just lazy writing. They take out the entire imperial blockade off screen (we got Cpt Pellaeon!). And then they can't be scratched and bring three Stardestroyers away? By holding on to them and jumping to hyperspace? I can rationalize a lot of stuff, and there are good arguments for Admiral Holdo in TLJ with her hyperspace attack. But here I'm at a loss. Nothing, nada.

@RufusDaMan already explained very well why the rebels achieving such an amazing victory with space whales (!) before any other large rebel victory is again just bad writing. Technically it is now non-canon, because a more important source says that did not happen...

Ahsoka. I love her, and the ending (of her story) in Clone Wars was some of the most dramatic Star Wars I've seen. Her back in Rebels belonged to the best episodes of the entire series. It also made clear that she worked with the Rebellion, and that the Rebellion knew very well about her. I need someone to explain to me why then Luke did not get any training from her? Where was she between Season 4 (pre Rogue One) and the epiloge (post Episode VI)? Had no one in the rebellion ever thought of telling this random farm boy who blew up the first Death Star, Luke Skywalker, about this former Jedi? The only one taught by Anakin Skywalker?

"Hey Ahsoka, you were a Jedi once, right? So there's this boy, Luke Skywalker, and it looks like he's becoming a Jedi. Could you help him out?"
"Nah not int... wait, did you say Skywalker?! Give me his number, I'll go see him right away!"

(Edit: see post below. There are some ideas how/why Ahsoka was involved. They are ok or even good, but at this point we still need to see them somewhere official)

Hera did not take a moment to tell him anything about Kanan and Ezra? About the Holocrons? The recorded messages from Obiwan? Sabine had a lightsaber, maybe tell him how to get a crystal? How to build one? About Jedi Temples? About these dimension doors?

This feels like a huge mistake on Filoni's part.

 

Rex on Endor!

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Edited by GreenDragoon

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11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Ahsoka. I love her, and the ending (of her story) in Clone Wars was some of the most dramatic Star Wars I've seen. Her back in Rebels belonged to the best episodes of the entire series. It also made clear that she worked with the Rebellion, and that the Rebellion knew very well about her. I need someone to explain to me why then Luke did not get any training from her? Where was she between Season 4 (pre Rogue One) and the epiloge (post Episode VI)? Had no one in the rebellion ever thought of telling this random farm boy who blew up the first Death Star, Luke Skywalker, about this former Jedi? The only one taught by Anakin Skywalker?

"Hey Ahsoka, you were a Jedi once, right? So there's this boy, Luke Skywalker, and it looks like he's becoming a Jedi. Could you help him out?"
"Nah not int... wait, did you say Skywalker?! Give me his number, I'll go see him right away!"

You know, if they did it right, I think I could TOTALLY get down with Ahsoka showing up in an Obi-Wan Kenobi movie and there being some plot/tension that leads to Obi-Wan telling her to stay away from Luke, for whatever reason.

Done right, that could be a lot of fun.

As to the rest, it's all pretty spot-on, in my opinion.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, NotBatman said:

You know, if they did it right, I think I could TOTALLY get down with Ahsoka showing up in an Obi-Wan Kenobi movie and there being some plot/tension that leads to Obi-Wan telling her to stay away from Luke, for whatever reason.

Done right, that could be a lot of fun.

As to the rest, it's all pretty spot-on, in my opinion.

The epilogue showed her escorted by X-Wings, so the Rebel Alliance knew about and escorted her.

Maybe the dimension doors set her into the future? Something like this could explain it, but it's again a bit lazy writing.

 

Edit: Another possibility is that Ahsoka did teach Luke between V and VI. She could have told him that there's good left in Vader. The movies never explain why Luke is so convinced of the idea after all. She also knew enough about the failings of the Jedi, which ties nicely with TLJ.

But we need to see these things.

So Ahsoka can be explained. And Rex being on Endor is pretty cool, even though he has seen a lot by the time. But what about the space whales? The rebel victory?

Edited by GreenDragoon

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24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The epilogue showed her escorted by X-Wings, so the Rebel Alliance knew about and escorted her.

Maybe the dimension doors set her into the future? Something like this could explain it, but it's again a bit lazy writing.

 

Edit: Another possibility is that Ahsoka did teach Luke between V and VI. She could have told him that there's good left in Vader. The movies never explain why Luke is so convinced of the idea after all. She also knew enough about the failings of the Jedi, which ties nicely with TLJ.

But we need to see these things.

True, but the epilogue was post-Jedi, so we don't have an on-screen answer for when she popped out and what she's been up to.

I could totally get down with her having taught Luke in between movies (again, with the caveat that it's done well) but that's going to be a harder sell, just because Luke never mentions her and appears to have no idea she exists. And obviously the REAL reason for that is that she didn't exist at the time - I don't mind a bit of hand-waving that sort of thing away, like U-Wings being "a thing" even though we never saw them before R1, but given that there almost HAS TO BE an Obi-Wan movie coming, it would be nice to see her in it.

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Posted (edited)

I genuinely think we're going to get more complete answers about Ahsoka in whatever show comes next.

However, it's my opinion that Ahsoka was simply not around until after the Battle of Endor. By which point, she didn't really have anything to teach Luke that he hadn't learned himself.

Regarding Ezra: he's MIA, possibly KIA. No-one has any reason to mention him to Luke, at best it would be pointless at worst it would give him false hope. Hera probably reported that Kanan was KIA and Ezra was MIA, presumed dead.

I'm sure he may have come across the idea of artefacts and holocrons, but other than that it makes sense he'd never talk much about the missing Jedi in the film. To him, they're probably just as dead as the Jedi from the Clone Wars.

Edited by Ktan

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Posted (edited)

Lothal was not a Rebels victory. they specifically say as much. the Rebel Alliance had zero involvement in the liberation of Lothal. it was not an official rebel action, and the handful of people with ties to the rebellion were acting against the orders of the Rebel Alliance, as free agents. so it is not a Rebel victory the way Scarif was.

and lets face it.. Lothal was not much of a victory. sure they kicked the Empire off the world.. but all they could do was cower under the planetary shield and make efforts to put the factories back into some degree of operation to build weapons. worlds rising up against the empire would have been fairly common. in the case of Lothal the Empire could easily keep lothal's freedom secret.. outwardly make no mention of the events to the larger galaxy, internally put out news it had rebelled and then wiped out. since the Rebel Alliance was not involved, and Lothal's liberation was not part of their Senate-centric strategy, the Rebel Alliance wouldn't be spending much effort to get counter-intel out there for the galaxy to hear.

by comparison, Scarif-Yavin was a huge victory.. Scarif saw the destruction of a major Imperial facility, one who's destruction would cripple much of the Empire's efforts in the outer rim. and since the Empire didn't want to admit that they blew up their own base, they had to claim that it was done by the Rebel Alliance Fleet. which they'd have to admit was much bigger and well organized than they'd been claiming in the official propaganda. and then only a few days later, the Rebel Alliance blew up the Death Star.. which the Imperials had used so blatantly on Alderaan, in a way that required them to admit that it was an Imperial weapon that did it. (remember, tarkin was trying for a "peace through having a bigger stick to threaten with" approach) while the Empire would never claim the DS1 was destroyed by the rebellion.. the rebels could easily put out their own news propaganda showing that part.

 

 

as far as Ashoka goes, remember that Ashoka is not a Jedi. she left the order, became something else. she is a Force user, but not a Jedi. Luke is the last Jedi.. but no one is claiming he was the only force user. it is possible that Ashoka did help train Luke. or it is possible that she trained other force users during that time, that her students went on to be some of Luke's students at the new Jedi Academy.

Edited by mithril2098

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6 minutes ago, mithril2098 said:

as far as Ashoka goes, remember that Ashoka is not a Jedi. she left the order, became something else. she is a Force user, but not a Jedi. Luke is the last Jedi.. but no one is claiming he was the only force user. it is possible that Ashoka did help train Luke. or it is possible that she trained other force users during that time, that her students went on to be some of Luke's students at the new Jedi Academy.

Not to mention that in this episode, Thrawn specifically clarifies the Empire's position on this.

Ezra: 'And yet the Jedi have survived'

Thrawn: 'Hmmm...the Jedi once numbered in the thousands.  What's left are a scattered, frightened lot.  Mostly beaten or in hiding...or poorly trained children, like...yourself.'

IE., they never meant 'extinct' to mean 'literally every last one is dead', but rather very specifically 'no longer relevant'.  Even the Empire is well aware that some remain, they just...don't matter.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Trghpu1994 said:

True but it surprised me the disdain he had for the Force and the Jedi in general. Even great military leaders are often undone by their own overconfidence

I wouldn't describe his feelings for the Force as disdain.  He simply doesn't understand it.  And he admits as much.

Thrawn draws his conclusions and makes his plans through information, and he simply doesn't have enough information about the Force.  And the Emperor isn't likely to provide it to him.

18 minutes ago, xanderf said:

IE., they never meant 'extinct' to mean 'literally every last one is dead', but rather very specifically 'no longer relevant'.  Even the Empire is well aware that some remain, they just...don't matter.

Indeed.  If there were no more Jedi, the Emperor wouldn't have Inquisitors.

Edited by DarthEnderX

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27 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Not to mention that in this episode, Thrawn specifically clarifies the Empire's position on this.

Ezra: 'And yet the Jedi have survived'

Thrawn: 'Hmmm...the Jedi once numbered in the thousands.  What's left are a scattered, frightened lot.  Mostly beaten or in hiding...or poorly trained children, like...yourself.'

IE., they never meant 'extinct' to mean 'literally every last one is dead', but rather very specifically 'no longer relevant'.  Even the Empire is well aware that some remain, they just...don't matter.

most people care less about the Empire's claims and get hung up on Yoda's "last of the Jedi will you be" line.. of the force users we know of post- order 66, it's
yoda: in hiding, becomes one with the force. Jedi

Obiwan: in hiding, becomes one with the force. Jedi

Ashoka: in hiding, not a Jedi.

Kanan: in hiding, dies. Jedi.

Ezra: Missing in action. not a Jedi.

Luke: active, Jedi.

so yoda is telling the truth. but like everything involving Jedi, it is from a certain point of view.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, mithril2098 said:

most people care less about the Empire's claims and get hung up on Yoda's "last of the Jedi will you be" line.. of the force users we know of post- order 66, it's
yoda: in hiding, becomes one with the force. Jedi

Obiwan: in hiding, becomes one with the force. Jedi

Ashoka: in hiding, not a Jedi.

Kanan: in hiding, dies. Jedi.

Ezra: Missing in action. not a Jedi.

Luke: active, Jedi.

so yoda is telling the truth. but like everything involving Jedi, it is from a certain point of view.

Thrawn seems to indicate there are more of them, though.  'A scattered, frightened lot' doesn't really describe the number of Jedi the Empire suspects might be in the wild if it's only Yoda and Obi-Wan (the only ones we've been shown to have their assassination fail and so the Empire 'would know about').

I think more likely the 'certain point of view' line is more along the direction of Obi-Wan's "Vader betrayed and murdered your father".  IE., he's just lying because that's what Luke needs to hear to do what he needs to do.

The more relevant line, then, is Tarkin's "The Jedi are extinct. Their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." to Vader - a conversation in which the person speaking would have no reason or anything to gain by lying to the person listening.  And in this context, what detail Thrawn has added here makes sense.  Vader is the only one who was once a Jedi that is still actively participating in the events of the universe.  Everyone else is 'scattered, frightened' and 'beaten or in hiding'.  At least, as far as Tarkin and Thrawn know.

Edited by xanderf

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i did say "of force users known" sure there might be a few more around. but we haven't been introduced to them yet. so we can't know what their situations are. how many are just padawans, or 'younglings' that escaped the purge? we know that some left the Jedi order before the purge, or failed and were kicked out. does the empire count them as Jedi? they called Ashoka a Jedi, when other Jedi don't (and she herself doesn't) so it is possible that the Empire takes a "all force users are Jedi.. unless they are Inquisitors/Sith" stance.

without more info we can't tell for sure.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Ahsoka isn't a Jedi.
Ezra is completely and utterly unable to render assistance.

Luke was the only one trained by a Jedi Master, instead of a Padawan who never truly became a Knight, or a Knight knighted by an entity in the force.

Do try to keep such things in mind. A lightsaber and force powers doesn't make one a Jedi or Sith. Though I suspect, no offense, that you'd refer to Snoke and Ben as Sith. Despite them genuinely not being such.

You can defend it all day if you like.  The reality is that it was convenient and lazy writing through literal word for word interpretation of the OT.  Just because Zeb says that the "Rebellion" did not have anything to do with the Battle at Lothal is not an excuse. The name of the Show is "Rebels" and Hera apparently went to Yavin 4 the next week almost and fought with the "Rebellion" at Scarif, yet you want to debate this as not being a "Rebel" Victory?  How many times was Ezra referred to as a "Jedi".  Heck, even Palpatine called him a Jedi.  Ashoka is not a "Jedi", just because she left the Order?  Give me a break.

Edited by Cannon3
addition

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10 minutes ago, Cannon3 said:

You can defend it all day if you like.  The reality is that it was convenient and lazy writing through literal word for word interpretation of the OT.  Just because Zeb says that the "Rebellion" did not have anything to do with the Battle at Lothal is not an excuse. The name of the Show is "Rebels" and Hera apparently went to Yavin 4 the next week almost and fought with the "Rebellion" at Scarif, yet you want to debate this as not being a "Rebel" Victory?  How many times was Ezra referred to as a "Jedi".  Heck, even Palpatine called him a Jedi.  Ashoka is not a "Jedi", just because she left the Order?  Give me a break.

I think you've forgotten how the opening crawl goes.

Here ya go - Episode IV:

Quote

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

...so, recall to me exactly, how many 'Rebel spaceships' appeared in the battle over Lothal?

See, it's not the Rebellion that got its first victory at Scarif, oh no!  Rather, Scarif is the first time Rebel spaceships have had a victory!

:D

:P

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5 minutes ago, xanderf said:

I think you've forgotten how the opening crawl goes.

Here ya go - Episode IV:

...so, recall to me exactly, how many 'Rebel spaceships' appeared in the battle over Lothal?

See, it's not the Rebellion that got its first victory at Scarif, oh no!  Rather, Scarif is the first time Rebel spaceships have had a victory!

:D

:P

Literally, the Ghost was at the Battle of Lothal and the "first victory" at Scarif.  

Defend away as you wish. It doesn't change the fact that it was, again, lazy and convenient writing that contradicts the OT.

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Re: Why the Empire left Lothal alone.

Sorry if this has been said but my theory as to why there was no retaliation is that the Emperor planned on using the Death Star to retaliate. Jedha and Scariff were tests then Leia's captue made Alderaan a priority target. I have no doubt that Lothal was high on the target list but then the Rebel scum got lucky at Yavin. After that the focus was on Skywalker. We'll never know if Lothal was still a priority for the second Death Star because again the filthy rebels got lucky, this time at Endor. After that all the Empire could focus on was survival, futily unfortunately.

There can be no doubt that the Empire would not let Lothal go unpunished, and it is my firm belief that it was always intended to be a Death Star that would deliver that punishment.

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2 hours ago, Cannon3 said:

Literally, the Ghost was at the Battle of Lothal and the "first victory" at Scarif.  

Defend away as you wish. It doesn't change the fact that it was, again, lazy and convenient writing that contradicts the OT.

so with 40-odd posts, most of them being negative, I'm kinda wondering what your real purpose here is.

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3 hours ago, Cannon3 said:

You can defend it all day if you like.  The reality is that it was convenient and lazy writing through literal word for word interpretation of the OT.  Just because Zeb says that the "Rebellion" did not have anything to do with the Battle at Lothal is not an excuse. The name of the Show is "Rebels" and Hera apparently went to Yavin 4 the next week almost and fought with the "Rebellion" at Scarif, yet you want to debate this as not being a "Rebel" Victory?  How many times was Ezra referred to as a "Jedi".  Heck, even Palpatine called him a Jedi.  Ashoka is not a "Jedi", just because she left the Order?  Give me a break.

But these are distinctions given by the show itself, not just fan theories. You may not like them, but that doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't.

The Rebel Alliance is an organization, and does not encompass all those who fight against the Empire as Saw's Partisans already established. Likewise, we have seen other Force Traditions before outside Jedi and Sith, such as the Nightsisters of Dathomir, showing that Jedi and Sith are not the only options. Remember, there was an age limit to getting into the Jedi. Those not accepted didn't suddenly lose their connection to the Force, thus are Force Senstive without being Jedi.  There are plenty of examples of people leaving or possibly being thrown out of the Jedi Order (Dooku left, Anakin would be kicked out once his marriage and kids were known), so Ashoka (who was kicked out, decided to stay that way, and had put aside some of the Jedi teachings) actually makes sense to not being considered a Jedi. 

As for Ezra, I would call him a Jedi, but he is also a) had training from someone who never graduated from Padawan and b) currently MIA. We have no idea yet what he was doing for the years of the OT, or what he will do going into the Sequel era. Maybe like Ashoka, his path will lead him to a different path then that of the Jedi. We'll have to see.

You may think of it as "convenient and lazy writing" and you have that right, but I disagree and your arguments have yet to prove otherwise.

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I ******* hate Semantic Wars.

 

Technically, if we abandon any semblance of common sense and context, and focus purely on strict definitions, Ahsoka and Ezra are not Jedi, Snoke is not a Sith, and Lothal was't a Rebel victory. C'mon.

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Posted (edited)

Just finished the finale. I enjoyed it, and accept the show for what it was. Yes it was not without flaws, inconsistencies, plot holes, and the like, but lets face it: when has Star Wars ever been without these things? :rolleyes: I choose to just roll with it and focus on the stuff I enjoyed, like I have always done. 

Also, it amuses me that so many people are irked by the Empire being defeated by Space Whales (shouldn't we actually be calling them Space Squids? :huh: They're more squid-like than whale like...), yet we all many of us swallow this without a second thought:

(Make sure to turn on Subtitles/CC for the full effect)

:lol:


Also, did anyone else notice that for (I believe) the first time in the series, during the credits, Chopper wasn't credited "as himself," but rather, it was revealed that Dave Filoni did Chopper? That's kinda cool. :)

 

EDIT: Also, this was probably mentioned in the credits before, but I just noticed that Warwick Davis voiced Rukh. :D

Edited by Herowannabe

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36 minutes ago, eMeM said:

I ******* hate Semantic Wars.

 

Technically, if we abandon any semblance of common sense and context, and focus purely on strict definitions, Ahsoka and Ezra are not Jedi, Snoke is not a Sith, and Lothal was't a Rebel victory. C'mon.

You speak out against focusing on strict definitions, yet complain that common sense and context are being abandoned? How is going by what characters have said themselves ignoring context?

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5 hours ago, DXCrazytrain said:

Re: Why the Empire left Lothal alone.

Sorry if this has been said but my theory as to why there was no retaliation is that the Emperor planned on using the Death Star to retaliate.

There can be no doubt that the Empire would not let Lothal go unpunished, and it is my firm belief that it was always intended to be a Death Star that would deliver that punishment.

THIS ‼️

Before the Empire of the Mouse invalidated former Canon, it was long established (1989) that the Death Star project,  at the behest of Grand Moff Tarkin (and with The Emperor’s full approval) had earmarked certain worlds to be removed for the threat they posed to The New Order.

The worlds to be targeted included Alderaan, Chandrila (Mon Mothma’s home world), Mon Cala/Dac and nearly a half dozen others.  Certain worlds were exempt as long as they paid tithe, tribute, services and remained useful to The Empire despite their semi - autonomy  (see the Corporate Sector and Nal Hutta). 

It’s easy and quite believable to add Lothal to the list of planets scheduled for ‘pacification’ had not for the unfortunate and calamitous events of the Battle of Yavin transpired. 

While we all know that the Death Star was the ultimate power in the Galaxy,  but it was also, a rather useful political tool. 

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