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STAR WARS: REBELS Discussion Thread!

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1 hour ago, Forresto said:

Tarkin is very clearly more powerful then simply his ranks and titles imply. The way ive always seen him is that he is the Emperor's real right hand man whereas Vader is simply an enforcer. 

Tarkin is the kind of man that builds and maintains empires. He is administrator, soldier, and politician but he doesnt wish to be emperor. Tarkin is in charge of Vader because it is most likely Tarkin above all other men that the Emperor actually trusts. 

In the Tarkin novel, it speaks of "The Emperor, Tarkin, and Vader: the Empire's newly formed dark triumvirate" right before the Emperor tells Tarkin about his Grand Moff title.

In the Star Wars Rebels: Visual Guide: Epic Battles book, it says "Except for Tarkin, Vader commands all the Emperor's servants" - and apparently the Lords of the Sith book confirms Vader as second in command of the Imperial Military with the Emperor as its head:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Military

I would suggest that while Vader and Tarkin cannot give one another orders (Moffs seem to be in a slightly different chain of command parallel to the military) Tarkin can give almost anyone below Vader, orders.

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First I want to say I loved the finale, it was pretty darn good. However I think it really failed in two ways.

1) It failed to capture Thrawn brilliance as a tactician. What was displayed really is what any competent admiral should be capable of with such overwhelming firepower.

Thrawn in his breakout trilogy was constantly using crazy daring tactics such as the marg sabl and the attack on Coruscant. People focus on his intuition with art but the dude was always meant to be a real genius when it came to war even without the intuition. 

2) It failed in part to capitalize on what the season setup. Where is Saber squadron and the tie interceptor aces? Where is Titus and that lady in command of the arkittens on Geonosis? Because if they were reprimanded for their failures then why is Konstantine commanding an interdictor? Is being captain of an interdictor actually a punishment for an ISD based admiral? Where is lieutenant List? Where is Iron Squadron?

You can make an arguement we'll maybe see some of that next season. However you dont set things up within a season like this where everything is very clearly building to a singular climax and not use the side plots.

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2 minutes ago, Forresto said:

First I want to say I loved the finale, it was pretty darn good. However I think it really failed in two ways.

1) It failed to capture Thrawn brilliance as a tactician. What was displayed really is what any competent admiral should be capable of with such overwhelming firepower.

Thrawn in his breakout trilogy was constantly using crazy daring tactics such as the marg sabl and the attack on Coruscant. People focus on his intuition with art but the dude was always meant to be a real genius when it came to war even without the intuition. 

2) It failed in part to capitalize on what the season setup. Where is Saber squadron and the tie interceptor aces? Where is Titus and that lady in command of the arkittens on Geonosis? Because if they were reprimanded for their failures then why is Konstantine commanding an interdictor? Is being captain of an interdictor actually a punishment for an ISD based admiral? Where is lieutenant List? Where is Iron Squadron?

You can make an arguement we'll maybe see some of that next season. However you dont set things up within a season like this where everything is very clearly building to a singular climax and not use the side plots.

Yeah, even if the Defenders weren't ready, I was still wondering the whole time. "Where are the interceptors!"

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I will say this, the season finale was good, but it could have been better.  One way that they could have done this would have been to stretch it over 3 episodes instead of 2.  Some things that I would have liked to see were:


-    Once their position was scouted, the futility of holding the line against AT-ATs.  They could have drawn some more inspiration from Hoth here (desperation, forced to constantly back up, etc).
-    A longer space battle with appearances from side characters (Wedge, Iron squadron, etc).
-    A different (longer) assault from the Mandalorians (their backpack rockets may have scratched an interdictor, but not destroy it).
-    A slower and more ominous approach by Bendu (I would have liked to see the effect slowly increase and affecting both sides a bit more equally).
-    More “inspirational” moments from Thrawn (his study of art of the heroes).
-    Tie Defenders being a problem during the space battle.

Maybe I will appreciate it more when I watch it again.
 

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Actually the whole disparity of ranks isn't that unheard of in modern times. In the former USSR, there were many times where a Captain in the KGB would be giving marching orders to a Major in the Soviet Army. Rank was set aside due to affiliation with a special group. This was keeping with the philosophy in the Soviet government that the Army was a tiger being held in place by chains held on either side by the KGB and the politburo. If either side let go, the tiger would pounce on and kill the other, but then there was nobody holding the chain and the other side would be inevitably devoured as well. Given the Imperial Navy's power and reach, I'd imagine they are under a similar amount of control.

Even in my medical section of the U.S. Army, we have a PA that is a Lieutenant Colonel and a doctor who is a Captain. Now, that's usually the difference between a Battalion and Company command, but since the doctor has the higher professional degree, he is the Brigade Surgeon and is over the Brigade PA.

That doesn't even bring in political pressures such as if Prince Harry were more like a Prince Geoffrey when he was in the British Army. Yeah he was a 2nd Lieutenant (Leftenant?), but do you really want to make an enemy of somebody who is in line to the throne?

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10 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

That doesn't even bring in political pressures such as if Prince Harry were more like a Prince Geoffrey when he was in the British Army. Yeah he was a 2nd Lieutenant (Leftenant?), but do you really want to make an enemy of somebody who is in line to the throne?

Every senior NCO I've ever met's attitude would have been, "Screw what happens if I get on the wrong side of him.  If I let him get himself killed I'm <expletive deleted>."

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Another thing that I would have liked to be different was the orbital bombardment.  I would have liked the shield to be able to hold much more convincingly (much like Hoth’s), forcing Thrawn into a land assault instead of him just showing off the firepower of his fleet and stopping before he did any actual damage.

I would have liked Thrawn to be able to calculate that because a ship had escaped due to Constantine’s blunder, he had to expedite things with a ground assault or risk having Rebel reinforcement make the battle more unpredictable.  The luxury of spending days weakening the shield with precision strikes was no longer his.  A small amount of irritation on that level would have made everything more fluid for me.
 

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1 minute ago, Major Tom said:

Every senior NCO I've ever met's attitude would have been, "Screw what happens if I get on the wrong side of him.  If I let him get himself killed I'm <expletive deleted>."

But commissioned officers? They'd care. Care VERY much. After all, NCOs know they're nothing but fecal facilitators, accelerating its downhill speed. Officers have the (vain) hope of someday initiating the poop procedure, and angering powerful government officials would destroy that hope. 

People still whinging about disappointing space battle? Already been addressed. He had orders to take the leaders alive, which meant killing the ships slooowly rather than ruining them fast. The answer was fighters.

Tarkin was RIGHT to order the capture of officers, and no doubt Thrawn knew it. This was just two Rebel cells, and he either suspected or knew that there were others. Thrawn just didn't like it because it made his job harder, who would?

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Honestly, I wasn't impressed with the finale. They failed to realize what Thrawn should be. As attentive as he's been to the Rebels, you'd think he'd pay more attention to his own officers. He failed to defeat the Rebels because he was either too blind or too stupid to realize that it was a mistake to put Admiral Constantine in command of a critical part of the battle. 

The orders from Tarkin (to take prisoners) and the incompetence of Constantine felt like week efforts to try and let the Rebels survive while letting Thrawn save face. 

The result was to let the Empire simply look like a bunch of chumps. Then again, that kinda fits Tarkin's history. He is the guy who didn't send out a single fighter to defend the Death Star even after being informed that the Rebel attack presented a danger. (Only three TIEs were seen at the Battle of Yavin, and they launched under the direct authority of Lord Vader.) And let's not forget his decision to obliterate a data complex on Scarif under the vague excuse of preventing the Death Star plans falling into Rebel hands, while really, he only wanted to remove a rival in the form of Dir. Krennic. 

 

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20 minutes ago, MarekMandalore said:

Honestly, I wasn't impressed with the finale. They failed to realize what Thrawn should be. As attentive as he's been to the Rebels, you'd think he'd pay more attention to his own officers. He failed to defeat the Rebels because he was either too blind or too stupid to realize that it was a mistake to put Admiral Constantine in command of a critical part of the battle. 

The orders from Tarkin (to take prisoners) and the incompetence of Constantine felt like week efforts to try and let the Rebels survive while letting Thrawn save face. 

The result was to let the Empire simply look like a bunch of chumps. Then again, that kinda fits Tarkin's history. He is the guy who didn't send out a single fighter to defend the Death Star even after being informed that the Rebel attack presented a danger. (Only three TIEs were seen at the Battle of Yavin, and they launched under the direct authority of Lord Vader.) And let's not forget his decision to obliterate a data complex on Scarif under the vague excuse of preventing the Death Star plans falling into Rebel hands, while really, he only wanted to remove a rival in the form of Dir. Krennic. 

 

Don't be dissin Tarkin! he's the baddest of the bad! 

 

ok you do have a few good points.....

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2 hours ago, Forresto said:

1) It failed to capture Thrawn brilliance as a tactician. What was displayed really is what any competent admiral should be capable of with such overwhelming firepower.

Thrawn in his breakout trilogy was constantly using crazy daring tactics such as the marg sabl and the attack on Coruscant. People focus on his intuition with art but the dude was always meant to be a real genius when it came to war even without the intuition. 

Thrawn in his breakout trilogy was also the underdog and NEEDED to use such tactics in order to win.

When you HAVE that overwhelming firepower you don't really need to be that fancy.  If you have better tactics, save them for when you actually NEED them so your enemy doesn't get a chance to prepare for them.

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7 minutes ago, xanderf said:

Clearly the show-runners play 'Armada' instead of 'X-Wing'.

'Each stand represents an entire squadron of fighters'

:ph34r:

Only the Rouge One writers/animators understand how many TIE's the Empire should have...

 

http://media.comicbook.com/2016/11/rogue-one-tie-fighter-squadron-212095-1280x0.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, MarekMandalore said:

(Only three TIEs were seen at the Battle of Yavin, and they launched under the direct authority of Lord Vader.)

Actually we saw more than just Vader and his two wingmen:

 

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/9/9b/BlackSquadron_Battle_of_Yavin.png/revision/latest?cb=20130303053823

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3 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

But commissioned officers? They'd care. Care VERY much. After all, NCOs know they're nothing but fecal facilitators, accelerating its downhill speed. Officers have the (vain) hope of someday initiating the poop procedure, and angering powerful government officials would destroy that hope. 

People still whinging about disappointing space battle? Already been addressed. He had orders to take the leaders alive, which meant killing the ships slooowly rather than ruining them fast. The answer was fighters.

Tarkin was RIGHT to order the capture of officers, and no doubt Thrawn knew it. This was just two Rebel cells, and he either suspected or knew that there were others. Thrawn just didn't like it because it made his job harder, who would?

A good chunk of officers that I've dealt with are keenly aware that they have 2-3 years to get promoted once they're eligible and that the game of 'musical desks' gets a lot more competitive as you get closer to the top. They have to have command time on top of all while usually squeezing in a Master's and maybe PhD in War College to get to the field and general ranks. That being said, those who are hungriest or most desperate for promotion are very quick to latch onto the teet of their superiors to try to get a leg up on their competition. 

I have fond memories of a new Lieutenant passing out and doing the dead cockroach because she was so concerned about performing well on during combat lanes that she didn't drink water despite multiple warnings from we NCOs.

NCOs don't really have that kind of stress as there are usually plenty of positions to move into if you're near the head of the pack and even if you don't make the cut there's very little chance of you being separated for it unless you're like a 10 year Sergeant or something like that.

I can only imagine the chaos that would ensue if officers had the ability to have their superiors booted out or executed so that they could step into their spot. We'd have Konstantines all over the place.

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52 minutes ago, flyboymb said:

I can only imagine the chaos that would ensue if officers had the ability to have their superiors booted out or executed so that they could step into their spot. We'd have Konstantines all over the place.

And with this you've latched on to the reality of the Imperial Navy: Where what rises to the top isn't cream, but ****. Konstantine isn't the exception, he's the RULE.

This is what Palpatine wants. He doesn't want his inferiors learning the magic of friendship and possibly threatening to overthrow him; he wants them at each other's throats, seeing each other as the enemy, never really sure WHO'S in charge or HOW much power that person has... and that attitude extends from the top down to the lowest troopers. Remember that Ezra, in the cadet episode, got PRAISED for throwing a coworker down the pit for his own gain?

Should Tarkin have been able to give a military order to an officer, telling them how to fight a major battle? Not in a sane organization. But the command structure of the Empire is anything but sane.

Thrawn is a rare jewel of an officer, no doubt tolerated by the Emperor and his fellows because he has no seeming political ambition, just to collect art and test his abilities of deduction to their fullest - and perhaps the other Grand Admirals are just as skilled as he is, protected by the Emperor from the political turmoil so at least SOMEONE is competent militarily.

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I'm not even sure Konstantine is the rule. Sure I think this sort've schoolboy mentality is absolutely rampant throughout the Imperial Navy and the Empire which is what ultimately dooms them but I have to imagine the good majority are fairly competent. Otherwise the Empire could not maintain itself as a galactic power or build technological wonders such as the Death Star if all its leaders and commanders were power hungry. 

On the other hand I would really like to see the Rebels goof up a bunch. Where are all the incompetents and Borsk Feylyas? 

Edited by Forresto

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Konstantine's insubordination is shallow and completely unrealistic IMO.

 

At best, as a result of his 'initiative' he will personally destroy a single warship. If in the Imperial Navy this would result in a net gain for him, counterbalancing the fact that he disobeyed several direct orders from his superior, then I highly doubt the Empire can maintain a functioning military. 

 

Now, I think an Imperial military where everyone is out for themselves and tries to come out on top personally rather than support each other for the common goal makes sense. However, I'd expect the basic command structure and orders are being followed, otherwise I fail to see how the Empire can maintain control.

 

The way I see it, what Tarkin did at Scariff (using his position to make the call that benefits HIM most and not the Empire, but still maintaining a justification that he acts for the greater good) makes sense. What Konstantine did (disobeying a direct order for little gain) does not. Even if he survives and kills the carrier (best outcome he can hope for), what's stopping Thrawn from executing him for insubordination ?

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On 3/26/2017 at 8:52 AM, Odanan said:

The Gauntlet would be great in the tables, but as Scum (with a badass Maul piloting it). No more Rebels-crew pilots!  

I hope there isn't a "Rebels wave" anymore, just a few hand-picked ships in Waves (alongside a healthy mix of Legends and New Canon ships/content).

I think the Gauntlet, being Mandalorian, would be a Scum faction ship since the Protectorate fighters are Scum also.

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3 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Konstantine's insubordination is shallow and completely unrealistic IMO.

 

At best, as a result of his 'initiative' he will personally destroy a single warship. If in the Imperial Navy this would result in a net gain for him, counterbalancing the fact that he disobeyed several direct orders from his superior, then I highly doubt the Empire can maintain a functioning military. 

 

Now, I think an Imperial military where everyone is out for themselves and tries to come out on top personally rather than support each other for the common goal makes sense. However, I'd expect the basic command structure and orders are being followed, otherwise I fail to see how the Empire can maintain control.

 

The way I see it, what Tarkin did at Scariff (using his position to make the call that benefits HIM most and not the Empire, but still maintaining a justification that he acts for the greater good) makes sense. What Konstantine did (disobeying a direct order for little gain) does not. Even if he survives and kills the carrier (best outcome he can hope for), what's stopping Thrawn from executing him for insubordination ?

It did seem a bit over the top. Only thing I can think of is that ol' Konnie was put in charge of an interdictor as a slight by Thrawn for past muck ups in lieu of any of the fine warships that was present at the battle. Konnie, realizing that this was probably going to be his biggest chance to make a name for himself before the Rebellion was defeated (I mean how many other enemies of this level did the Empire have?) decided to put his name in the history by destroying the carrier that the Rebels had stolen from the Empire. If he made enough of an impact on the battle, his prestige would likely preclude Thrawn from taking any disciplinary action against him.

That's just my thoughts using a '**** Dastardly' military leadership style.

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8 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

Dantooine.  They're on Dantooine.

Actually, that would have been a far better destination for the rebels to flee to in regard of storytelling: More freedom with the setting (planet) and background story and the opportunity to make another season. Now it looks the next season will be the final one leading up to Rogue One.

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On 3/27/2017 at 1:39 PM, dotswarlock said:

Another thing that I would have liked to be different was the orbital bombardment.  I would have liked the shield to be able to hold much more convincingly (much like Hoth’s), forcing Thrawn into a land assault instead of him just showing off the firepower of his fleet and stopping before he did any actual damage.

I would have liked Thrawn to be able to calculate that because a ship had escaped due to Constantine’s blunder, he had to expedite things with a ground assault or risk having Rebel reinforcement make the battle more unpredictable.  The luxury of spending days weakening the shield with precision strikes was no longer his.  A small amount of irritation on that level would have made everything more fluid for me.
 

As I thought on it, I got the impression that Tarkin's request for prisoners forced Thrawn to do a lot of unnecessary things.  In the initial space conflict he mostly bullies the rebel ships back to the surface.  Likewise the orbital bombardment clearly isn't intended to actually break through the shield, but rather force everyone under it, so they can be captured in a ground assault.

As to why they didn't ion the ships in space and pull them in to the SDs with tractor beams?  I have no idea honestly, but at least the plan used worked as intended for the most part until giant cloud face showed up.

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