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Rationale for which stat can be used for Lightsaber for 6 forms.

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Hi

 

Is there anywhere that explains why, that for one specialisations in each of various 6 forms is used for a instead of Brawn/Agilirty for basic game?

 

So for example, for Soresu Defender (Form III specialist, melee defensive form, uses Intellect for Lightsaber attacks....), whay does it feed off Intellect? Surely Intellect would be better for Sage specialisation or even Mystic career? Intellect for Guardian career specialisation just does nt feel right?

 

Would be keen to see how various talent trees match up with 5 non-brawn stats. Just want to make sure that not mismatch.

 

Cheers

 

James

 

 

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They're just interpretations from the lore. Go read wookieepedia's entries (they're listed as Form X: Y) and it will give you a pretty good idea how the devs decided. That said, two seem to be especially off-mark. Shii-Cho is a very basic form whose practitioners and masters need to use creativity and cleverness in their swordwork to overcome the form's simplistic limitations. Shien is a form with many offensive maneuvers, most of which benefit from great strength as a deliberately physical form. So why Shii-Cho isn't Cunning and Shien isn't Brawn I do not know. Makashi being based on Presence feels a bit forced, but there are 6 Characteristics and 6 Form Specializations, so what can you do?

 

edit: I'm working on a big feedback write-up concerning the Lightsaber Form specs and their translations from the source material as we speak. It will be posted sometime this weekend. 

Edited by Smog

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They're just interpretations from the lore. Go read wookieepedia's entries (they're listed as Form X: Y) and it will give you a pretty good idea how the devs decided. That said, two seem to be especially off-mark. Shii-Cho is a very basic form whose practitioners and masters need to use creativity and cleverness in their swordwork to overcome the form's simplistic limitations. Shien is a form with many offensive maneuvers, most of which benefit from great strength as a deliberately physical form. So why Shii-Cho isn't Cunning and Shien isn't Brawn I do not know. Makashi being based on Presence feels a bit forced, but there are 6 Characteristics and 6 Form Specializations, so what can you do?

When I read Shien Technique talent, I immediately thought of Obi-Wan's description of Anakin: "he was a cunning warrior." So, for me, that right there made it fit. Besides that, Shien is all about turning your enemies' attacks against themselves, so Cunning is also appropriate on that end.

Shii-Cho is all about basics and fundamentals. There really shouldn't be a separate "Shii-Cho Technique" talent. Brawn works best since it's the default, and it's plenty supported in the lore with some very Brawny practitioners, among them Kit Fisto and Kirlocca. Note also that the Shii-Cho-specific talents can be activated with any Lightsaber check, not just a Brawn/Lightsaber check.

Makashi based on Presence is absolutely warranted, and very flavorful. For me it hearkens back to Noble Fencing Style from Saga Edition. It's the form you might see lightfoil duelists use, and is all about presence, panache, posture. It screams Count Dooku, standing tall with one hand on his hip while he effortlessly parries and puts on a performance. (And picks a peck of pickled peppers)

Finally, a lightsaber user can use any characteristic for any normal Lightsaber combat check, provided he has the appropriate Technique talent. So a Makashi Duelist can still use Brawn to attack. It's just the "signature" moves from each form that require that form's chosen characteristic to perform. And when you look at those individually, it just makes even more sense.

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Also, they had to let the FUs be special snowflakes and give them a way to attack with any stat so that all FUs can be combat masters regardless of their other foci... Some of them don't seem to super line up with the theme or skills of their respective careers to me either, but that's what they went with.

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Actually, I don't. But in this case the colloquial definition (being a derogative term for someone who thinks they are unjustifiably special, much like snowflakes are not actually unique) applies.

Edited by T3CHN0Shaman

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Actually, I don't. But in this case the colloquial definition (being a derogative term for someone who thinks they are unjustifiably special, much like snowflakes are not actually unique) applies.

I was trying to be charitable by assuming that you were mistaken about the term snowflake, and light-hearted by injecting a humorous meme into the situation.

But instead I guess it's now apparent that, instead of addressing the points that others have brought to the table, you would rather just ignore all the in-universe justifications, game balance considerations, and decisions based on years of previous Star Wars games, and then oversimplify the issue by using the term "snowflake."

I'm wondering—how exactly does giving a character the ability perform a Lightsaber (Willpower) check make that character a "snowflake?"

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I was trying to be charitable by assuming that you were mistaken about the term snowflake

Now who's using the wrong words. I believe you meant to say "patronizing", "condescending", and/or "passive-aggressive".

 

instead of addressing the points that others have brought to the table, you would rather just ignore all the in-universe justifications, game balance considerations, and decisions based on years of previous Star Wars games

I didn't address them because they don't exist. Sure, a few people have suggested rationales but none of them are backed by supporting evidence let alone enough to warrant the idea that the other traits are somehow MORE important to the wielding of a Lightsaber than Brawn or Agility.

 

I'm wondering—how exactly does giving a character the ability perform a Lightsaber (Willpower) check make that character a "snowflake?"

I will admit that I did not read every Talent in full but as far as I can tell this universal substitution of a Characteristic occurs ONLY in the F&D book, with no particular justification for it. Thus I am left to assume that they did it solely because they wanted every F&D character to be able to use a lightsaber regardless of their Characteristics, which is an exception to the way everything works everywhere else in the entire system. Additionally, every career has not just a more combat-focused specialization but a combat-dedicated specialization. The next closest thing is Works Like A Charm and Stroke of Genius which are Tier 4s that let you substitute a characteristic on one roll once per session. How much more "snowflake" can you get? Edited by T3CHN0Shaman

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Is there anywhere that explains why, that for one specialisations in each of various 6 forms is used for a instead of Brawn/Agilirty for basic game?

 

That would be fluff, and there's no fluff in the Beta.  Maybe in the final product.  There has been some contention here, not much, on these forums about the distribution of attributes across the specs.  I've argued that anything besides brawn or agility is incredibly arbitrary, so it's hard to make any objective argument for one or another outside pure gameism (i.e. balance of point allocation, etc.).

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Works like a Charm and Stroke of Genius can be used on any skill check, not just a specific substitution.

 

There was a justification given by Sam Stewart on the Order 66 podcast, and as Lorne pointed out, it was one based on fluff.

 

He mentioned that in every example of Jedi* we are given from canon sources, no matter if they were old and decrepit, or young and plucky, they were quite proficient with a Lightsaber. He specifically calls out Jedi Master Tera Sinube as his example. Master Sinube is an old Cosian who moves at the pace of a Hutt. But when it came time to draw his blade, he was quite proficient.

 

*Trained Jedi that is; as well as trained Sith.

Edited by kaosoe

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Works like a Charm and Stroke of Genius can be used on any skill check, not just a specific substitution

As I said, "the next closest thing". A one-off general substitution is significantly less powerful than an always-on specific substitution, especially for a skill that's going to be usable repeatedly in just about any 4 hour session.

He mentioned that in every example of Jedi

Which is kind of what I'm getting at. I will never understand why people seem to think that, actual Force use aside, Jedi should be an exception to the way the rest of the world works. It gives F&D characters a distinct advantage that doesn't exist for any other kind of character without any downside to balance it out. There are a lot of ways that one could reflect Jedi's penchant for lightsabers that aren't quite so designed for abuse.

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How exactly is this designed for abuse? It allows a minor leg up when using a specific melee weapon. And the downside is to really use it you've got to buy in and spend xp in a whole new spec (which is already in demand for force powers too). The downside is xp is a more vital resource for force users.

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Works like a Charm and Stroke of Genius can be used on any skill check, not just a specific substitution

As I said, "the next closest thing". A one-off general substitution is significantly less powerful than an always-on specific substitution, especially for a skill that's going to be usable repeatedly in just about any 4 hour session.

He mentioned that in every example of Jedi

Which is kind of what I'm getting at. I will never understand why people seem to think that, actual Force use aside, Jedi should be an exception to the way the rest of the world works. It gives F&D characters a distinct advantage that doesn't exist for any other kind of character without any downside to balance it out. There are a lot of ways that one could reflect Jedi's penchant for lightsabers that aren't quite so designed for abuse.

 

Jedi are already really expensive to get to work without needing another xp sink just to be proficient with a lightsaber. 

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The thing is Jedi are no more or less expensive than any other career or spec. The only additional cost is Force powers (which applies to the FSUs as well), which both provide options not available elsewhere and can supplant the need for many other abilities at higher levels. But this option gives a "get out of jail free card" to F&D characters that no one else gets. Previously a character who wanted high Willpower, Cunning or Presence would be unable to boost their Brawn or Agility making them relatively ineffective at combat (which is as it should be). These abilities allow characters to largely ignore the need for Brawn or Agility when it comes to combat.

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These abilities allow characters to largely ignore the need for Brawn or Agility when it comes to combat.

 

Except skipping out on Brawn means that without burning strain and having Parry or Reflect Ranks, your character can go down fast since they have lower soak - big problem if you only focus on using a lightsaber, which forces you into engaged range. Skipping out on Agility means you're awful with a gun/blaster, something you'd probably want to have when popping the lightsaber can draw too much attention - and if you can't take out the people shooting at you, then you're probably going down quickly that way as well.

 

Brawn and Agility are still the combat characteristics. Brawn gives higher wound (at character creation), soak, can be used with melee and brawn, and is the default for lightsabers. Agility is, unless I'm forgetting something from a sourcebook, used for every firearm. On top of that, Ataru Striker and Shii-Cho Knight are some of the more offensive lightsaber trees currently available.

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As for what specs used which Characteristic, one could probably come up with a number of justifications/rationalizations to tie any given Characteristic to a particular Form.

 

Personally, I think what FFG used lines up pretty well with each of the six Forms used.

 

And if a PC chooses to over-focus on one of the Characteristics that pertains to their selected LS Form spec, then it carries with it the same problem that any other PC that chooses to over-focus on a single Characteristic has: they're not going to be as proficient in as broad an assortment of areas as a PC that diversified.  And from what I've seen, it's the PCs that are able to diversify that tend to do better in the longer run than the one-trick ponies, particularly when the encounter doesn't really fit their one trick.

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Lathrop: Talking about how they're used for other things in combat isn't really germane. The fact is that any non-physical character who invests in a non-physical lightsaber tree will automatically be a better combatant than any non-force using character with the same attributes and base concept because nothing else in the game can to do this. To my mind that's a little ridiculous.

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T3CHN0, wasn't trying to be patronizing or condescending. Sorry for coming across that way.

The others have said it pretty well. There are plenty of reasons, rationale, and even fluff in the very text-light Beta book to justify these mechanics. And I'll leave it at that.

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Lathrop: Talking about how they're used for other things in combat isn't really germane. The fact is that any non-physical character who invests in a non-physical lightsaber tree will automatically be a better combatant than any non-force using character with the same attributes and base concept because nothing else in the game can to do this. To my mind that's a little ridiculous.

 

Again though, there is a greater balance. Unless you're intentionally throwing your players only in places where nobody cares about seeing visible force powers or lightsabers, then sure, it could maybe be a balance issue. But it's not. Players can't always rely on those force powers, or lightsabers, or talents that let them use lightsabers with anything other than brawn (Lightsaber Techniques are Force Talents) - and that's where Brawn and Agility come in for more traditional weapons (Ancient Sword also requiring Brawn to be useful despite using the Lightsaber Skill), and where Brawn comes in for better survivability. And this is all on top of Brawn and Agility lightsaber users being harder hitters than most other trees - or as you put it a "better combatant".

 

As for how each characteristic specifically ties into each form, I personally find each one generally makes sense and ties in well with the chosen characteristic, and makes sense in terms of using it in combat, because hell, they're weightless glow sticks that cut through nearly everything like butter - physical strength could really only ever add so much to its effectiveness; everything else is about style.

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Thanks for the replies.

I get that there are 6 Careers, 6 Lightsaber Forms featured (with Juyo / Vaapad beter saved for follow up supplement). and 6 Attributes. Certain symmetry there!

Just to clarify what I meant. I don't have problem with say Soresu Defender using Intellect and Makashi Duellist using Presence. For the latter the epitome of Makashi Duellist is Count Dooku, and Presence, style and panache all fit perfectly with Dooku's character to me.

It was more Soresu Defender which uses Intellect is a Specialisation of Guardian career, whilst Makashi Duellist which uses Presence is a Specialisation of Mystic career. Surely the Lightsaber form that uses Intellect would be better off as a Mystic Specialisation rather than a Guardian Specialisation?

What sort of Jedi (I.e. Guardian/Consular/Sentinel) was Count Dooku in previous Star Wars rpg's?

I would have expected that Dooku was more of a Guardian rather than Mystic!! So keep Makashi Duellist as using Intellect but switch it to be a Guardian Specialisation, swapping it with Soresu Defender.

Or are there fluff reasons for thembeing the way round that they are?

Cheers

James

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What anyone was in previous systems isn't really worth discussing. Other systems are a neat suggestion, but just as the new films can't tie themselves to a pile of old novels, FFG can't lash itself to what WEG or WotC did.

 

That said... so what if Dooku was a Guardian? Why can't he take Makashi as a non career spec? After all isn't that kinda the whole point of allowing noncareer specs? To give you that freedom?

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