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FFG_Sam Stewart

Beta Update 9

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I dont think the Jedi in F&D are anything close to uber characters. It takes at least 300xp to have one power partially filled out and FR3 in order to activate it somewhat consistently, and thats all at the expense of developing any skills.  IME from the the high level games I've run the uber characters tend to be the min-maxers that focus on stealth, ranged heavy/autofire, or soak.

 

I feel that characters that go the force are "forced" to spread their xp out and even if they focus on only one power and picking up FR instead of dedications it takes quite a bit xp and leaves them pretty weak in anything non force.

Pretty sure that was the intent when designing Force and Destiny.

 

Having played every prior Star Wars RPG (and a couple of fan-hacks), one of the biggest problems has been keeping Force users from utterly dominating the game.  Saga Edition suffered from this pretty badly (to the point that some GMs outright banned the Jedi class and related prestige classes from their games, particularly if the game was set in the Dark Times or Rebellion Era) as did WEG once the Force user PCs got their Force skills up to a certain point (about 5D in each).

 

Thus far, Force and Destiny seems to have avoided that particularly pothole by making a Force user PC either have to spread their XP around a whole lot to "cover all the bases" or have to focus their XP into specific areas of expertise, and that by the time they've got enough XP to be really good at using a lightsaber and using the Force, it's taken them a few hundred XP to accomplish, which is XP the muggles in the group have spent to boost up their own skills and collect a number of talents.

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Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

<sarcasm>That was a private conversation between me and Sam on a public social medium. Stop stalking me.</sarcasm>

 

;)

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I dont think the Jedi in F&D are anything close to uber characters. It takes at least 300xp to have one power partially filled out and FR3 in order to activate it somewhat consistently, and thats all at the expense of developing any skills.  IME from the the high level games I've run the uber characters tend to be the min-maxers that focus on stealth, ranged heavy/autofire, or soak.

 

I feel that characters that go the force are "forced" to spread their xp out and even if they focus on only one power and picking up FR instead of dedications it takes quite a bit xp and leaves them pretty weak in anything non force.

Pretty sure that was the intent when designing Force and Destiny.

 

Having played every prior Star Wars RPG (and a couple of fan-hacks), one of the biggest problems has been keeping Force users from utterly dominating the game.  Saga Edition suffered from this pretty badly (to the point that some GMs outright banned the Jedi class and related prestige classes from their games, particularly if the game was set in the Dark Times or Rebellion Era) as did WEG once the Force user PCs got their Force skills up to a certain point (about 5D in each).

 

Thus far, Force and Destiny seems to have avoided that particularly pothole by making a Force user PC either have to spread their XP around a whole lot to "cover all the bases" or have to focus their XP into specific areas of expertise, and that by the time they've got enough XP to be really good at using a lightsaber and using the Force, it's taken them a few hundred XP to accomplish, which is XP the muggles in the group have spent to boost up their own skills and collect a number of talents.

 

 

Yeah. This has always been a complaint in my RPG groups to the point where some people refused to play the setting because Jedi were so overpowered compared to everyone else. I like it much better with this system. Sure, the Force may provide a lot of options that muggles won't have access to, but they pay for that utility with XP that could be spent specializing in other areas, and none of the force powers are particularly game-breaking (well...Influence I guess...but that's from a narrative perspective rather than a mechanics one).

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If it remember using the dark side also lowers Willpower by one, so the roll isn't that easy. Also, could be destiny spent, either side, and setback dice. "Sure, ignoring that is an easy check, but everybody else does it, so here two black dice cuz peer pressure"

No...being a REALLY dark dark-sider (dropping below Morality 20) gives you a lower Strain Threshold...but there's no Willpower drop. Unless you're targeted by Batte Meditation using the dark side :) then there's a temporary drop in the target's Willpower. Otherwise your Willpower remains unmolested by use of the dark side.

 

 

Well i was pointing out that, we where discussing battle meditation. And using that with the dark side drops the objects willpower by one. Which means that the easy check to resist orders isn't so easy anymore.

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If it remember using the dark side also lowers Willpower by one, so the roll isn't that easy. Also, could be destiny spent, either side, and setback dice. "Sure, ignoring that is an easy check, but everybody else does it, so here two black dice cuz peer pressure"

No...being a REALLY dark dark-sider (dropping below Morality 20) gives you a lower Strain Threshold...but there's no Willpower drop. Unless you're targeted by Batte Meditation using the dark side :) then there's a temporary drop in the target's Willpower. Otherwise your Willpower remains unmolested by use of the dark side.

 

 

Well i was pointing out that, we where discussing battle meditation. And using that with the dark side drops the objects willpower by one. Which means that the easy check to resist orders isn't so easy anymore.

 

 

Ah, I understand. Looks like I failed a Hard Discipline to follow multiple different discussions, with setbacks due to lack of quotes and context in replies :-p 

 

And yes, that's very true. 

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Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

 

I'd say swap it out for a control upgrade that ties into Force Move since Dooku and Palpatine both used Lightning to throw people (Anakin into a wall and Windu out the Window). But as suggested before, possibly even by you Donovan, that might better fit as a narrative thing to describe using Unleash as a Maneuver (Control Upgrade) and then using Move for an action.

 

Maybe something like spending a force point to add Knockdown when using Unleash? Zero idea on what could be used for Protect.

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I dont think the Jedi in F&D are anything close to uber characters. It takes at least 300xp to have one power partially filled out and FR3 in order to activate it somewhat consistently, and thats all at the expense of developing any skills.  IME from the the high level games I've run the uber characters tend to be the min-maxers that focus on stealth, ranged heavy/autofire, or soak.

 

I feel that characters that go the force are "forced" to spread their xp out and even if they focus on only one power and picking up FR instead of dedications it takes quite a bit xp and leaves them pretty weak in anything non force.

Pretty sure that was the intent when designing Force and Destiny.

 

Having played every prior Star Wars RPG (and a couple of fan-hacks), one of the biggest problems has been keeping Force users from utterly dominating the game.  Saga Edition suffered from this pretty badly (to the point that some GMs outright banned the Jedi class and related prestige classes from their games, particularly if the game was set in the Dark Times or Rebellion Era) as did WEG once the Force user PCs got their Force skills up to a certain point (about 5D in each).

 

Thus far, Force and Destiny seems to have avoided that particularly pothole by making a Force user PC either have to spread their XP around a whole lot to "cover all the bases" or have to focus their XP into specific areas of expertise, and that by the time they've got enough XP to be really good at using a lightsaber and using the Force, it's taken them a few hundred XP to accomplish, which is XP the muggles in the group have spent to boost up their own skills and collect a number of talents.

 

 

Yep that is one of my favorite things about it so far, the xp cost combined with the opposed check for PC/Nemesis (pg.195) is incredibly effective at keeping power levels equal and really extends the lifetime of games.

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Regarding Protect/Unleash and it having one too many Range Upgrades...

 

First off, this same situation occurred with the Move power during the EotE Beta, where said book listed Move has having a default range of Engaged (making it little more than a party trick) but enough Range Upgrades to push the power's range out to Extreme.  During the Beta Update process, the base power was changed to have a default range of Short, but the extra Range Upgrade was left in place until the actual core rulebook came out, which swapped the placement of the Range Upgrades with the Magnitude Upgrades.

 

Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

 

 

Since we are on the Range topic could someone explain why Protect/Unleash has ANY range upgrades. From my limited memory of the movies and TCW idt that anyone shoots lightning farther than short range. Yoda is the only one who uses protect and that appeared to only work at engaged range. Not that it really means anything since they have used quite abit of EU stuff. 

 

So they take out one of the upgrades it still has a range of extreme which means lightning sniping people a mile away (which would make an interesting bounty hunter character haha) or force rebounding on behalf of someone you probably can't see without a scope. Seems like short range would work just fine, maybe medium tops.

 

That could make room in the tree for other upgrades though I am not really sure what theyd be. I doubt they would do that anyways since it would mean a major rework of the power. Just curious what others think about this.

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Regarding Protect/Unleash and it having one too many Range Upgrades...

 

First off, this same situation occurred with the Move power during the EotE Beta, where said book listed Move has having a default range of Engaged (making it little more than a party trick) but enough Range Upgrades to push the power's range out to Extreme.  During the Beta Update process, the base power was changed to have a default range of Short, but the extra Range Upgrade was left in place until the actual core rulebook came out, which swapped the placement of the Range Upgrades with the Magnitude Upgrades.

 

Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

 

 

Since we are on the Range topic could someone explain why Protect/Unleash has ANY range upgrades. From my limited memory of the movies and TCW idt that anyone shoots lightning farther than short range. Yoda is the only one who uses protect and that appeared to only work at engaged range. Not that it really means anything since they have used quite abit of EU stuff. 

 

So they take out one of the upgrades it still has a range of extreme which means lightning sniping people a mile away (which would make an interesting bounty hunter character haha) or force rebounding on behalf of someone you probably can't see without a scope. Seems like short range would work just fine, maybe medium tops.

 

That could make room in the tree for other upgrades though I am not really sure what theyd be. I doubt they would do that anyways since it would mean a major rework of the power. Just curious what others think about this.

 

Because it is not JUST force lightning. 

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Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

 

I'd say swap it out for a control upgrade that ties into Force Move since Dooku and Palpatine both used Lightning to throw people (Anakin into a wall and Windu out the Window). But as suggested before, possibly even by you Donovan, that might better fit as a narrative thing to describe using Unleash as a Maneuver (Control Upgrade) and then using Move for an action.

 

Maybe something like spending a force point to add Knockdown when using Unleash? Zero idea on what could be used for Protect.

 

Actually, that can be accomplished with the talent Force is My Ally, which lets you activate a Force power as a Maneuver.  Thus, Dooku can fry someone with Unleash, then spend a Maneuver to activate Move to push/throw the target out of the way.

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vtfuy.jpg

I could see protect working at longer than engaged range (which Yoda blocked Dooku's FL at well past engaged).

 

It's because you can protect yourself or an engaged ally. There is the engaged thing. If someone shoots you or your back-to-back buddy from 10 kilometer with a super-mega-powerlevel-over-9000-blaster-sniper (and you could react to it) you can use protect. It doesn't care about what range band the attack comes from, it cares about what you can protect.

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Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

 

I'd say swap it out for a control upgrade that ties into Force Move since Dooku and Palpatine both used Lightning to throw people (Anakin into a wall and Windu out the Window). But as suggested before, possibly even by you Donovan, that might better fit as a narrative thing to describe using Unleash as a Maneuver (Control Upgrade) and then using Move for an action.

 

Maybe something like spending a force point to add Knockdown when using Unleash? Zero idea on what could be used for Protect.

 

Actually, that can be accomplished with the talent Force is My Ally, which lets you activate a Force power as a Maneuver.  Thus, Dooku can fry someone with Unleash, then spend a Maneuver to activate Move to push/throw the target out of the way.

 

 

The Force is my ally talent is usually how i interpret that scene also, but the ensnare quality on the Unleash control upgrade could also work. Actually it works better when i think about it.

Edited by Poseur

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Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

 

I'd say swap it out for a control upgrade that ties into Force Move since Dooku and Palpatine both used Lightning to throw people (Anakin into a wall and Windu out the Window). But as suggested before, possibly even by you Donovan, that might better fit as a narrative thing to describe using Unleash as a Maneuver (Control Upgrade) and then using Move for an action.

 

Maybe something like spending a force point to add Knockdown when using Unleash? Zero idea on what could be used for Protect.

 

Actually, that can be accomplished with the talent Force is My Ally, which lets you activate a Force power as a Maneuver.  Thus, Dooku can fry someone with Unleash, then spend a Maneuver to activate Move to push/throw the target out of the way.

 

 

The Force is my ally talent is usually how i interpret that scene also, but the ensnare quality on the Unleash control upgrade could also work. Actually it works better when i think about it.

 

 

I see Ensnare as more being when Luke is on the floor in RotJ, unable to do anything (which would be combined with my suggestion for adding Knockdown).

 

I'd say that Dooku could be Force is My Ally, but I'd imagine Palpatine on Windu is probably the Control upgrade partially because he just cleared out a ton of jedi (in which Parry can cost strain depending on how you build the adversary - normal NPCs take strain, Inquisitors don't), but more for dramatic effect of flipping a Destiny Point to use two powers to make sure a powerful NPC dies. But really, same-difference, it's all done to use two powers in a turn.

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Regarding Palpatine vs. Mace Windu: the moving of Windu out the window could have also just been a narrative finish for a powerful jolt of Force Lighting that caused a killing Critical Injury. Further, no one else was around to fight after that, so structured play would have ended, making turns and actions a non-issue.

Regarding Unleash being used at extreme range, I give you http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_storm_(weather)

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I agree with EotEmpire

Protect should just be Willpower and Unleash should be 2x Willpower.

I also think that Unleash should be otherwise treated as a ranged attack instead of saying," Short Range Discipline check with Average difficulty." Then as I assume many of you are playing it, regardless of whom you are attacking and what they're ranged defense and upgrades are you are going," Hey it says average difficulty check" when it should be possibly even formidable with all upgrades and 4+ setback dice.

 

There should also be less Strength upgrades in my opinion. 3 is already too much and lets you potentially add strength to both protect/unleash in levels of planetary scale in theory.

 

I would prefer instead a Control Upgrade that gives you accuracy for spending 2 pips, as you may have noticed the new strength upgrade no longer gives advantage as well so you can't spend those advantage on critical hits or particularly to boost the defense bonus given by Protect.

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Same as always in that respect, extra successes give increased damage. Only thing that changed with damage is base power went from equal to Willpower, to twice Willpower, and is now back to being equal to Willpower.

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I also think that Unleash should be otherwise treated as a ranged attack instead of saying," Short Range Discipline check with Average difficulty." Then as I assume many of you are playing it, regardless of whom you are attacking and what they're ranged defense and upgrades are you are going," Hey it says average difficulty check" when it should be possibly even formidable with all upgrades and 4+ setback dice.

 

Disagree.  It may narratively look like a physical attack, but Force powers have their own subsystem wrt how they're activated, and they've been good at keeping that consistent.

 

 

Also, Sonofscathach raises an excellent point:  the soak at high-level play means that Burn does nothing.  Maybe if the Strength upgrades added to the "base damage" instead of the "damage"?

Edited by Lorne

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I have to say that it's kind of interesting what's been done to Heal/Harm. It now requires more XP to make it into a decent substitute for for a stimpack, but now at first it has the advantage of being able to be used at a range. I can see this. 

 

I still feel kind of "meh" about Terrify getting a point of conflict. It will be interesting to see how many people decide to play the class. In my experience, most people stay away from the "Dark Side" classes in the previous versions. The Aggressor seems almost tailor-made for GMs to use if they want a class for NPCs. 

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What exactly do you disagree with Lorne? Unleash is essentially just an energy weapon the user creates with the force and should be treated as such. It should have relatively the same base damage and at most, perhaps a bit more maximum damage but not this planetary scale potential it has right now (Not without an upgrade tree at least)

 

Plus I don't feel it's right playing it or having it used against me unless I can equally argue using dodge, adversary, defensive stance, side step, sense, ranged defense, deflector shields etc and everything else that raises the difficulty of being hit by a ranged energy attack.

 

and 1x Willpower with soak applying would literally make Unleash the weakest basic attack in the game, might as well just fisticuff them before strength upgrades and I don't know about you but I don't want to be strong-armed to have to have 6+ Willpower and/or spending all my force pips when we acquire the power on Strength upgrades. In addition to the fact that you're also demanding all the extra experience before the power even makes any sense. 

Besides 2x Willpower with Unleash would be fair for the burn damage anyway and won't require any additional tinkering.

Edited by Balancetotheforce

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Unleash/Lightning isn't a blaster bolt firing in a straight line. Similar to Move, it's all about the visualization. Vader didn't need to directly be in front of somebody to Force Choke them. And Palpatine didn't need to have Vader in front of him as he was being chucked down a shaft - Palpatine was still capable of arcing it around his body into and around Vader.

 

Does it maybe not make sense that it couldn't be blocked off by a deflector shield? Sure. But Deflector Shields as they're presented in the game aren't exactly guaranteed blockers for blaster bolts in the first place.

 

In relation to damage. If the power became similar to a ranged attack - where difficulty dice can be upgraded, Despairs more possible, multiple setbacks from Defense can be added in - then I could maybe see twice the Willpower - but the difficulty is a set pool, so it shouldn't. Why? Because with the 2 Difficulty, you're essentially pulling all your damage from extra force points for Strength upgrades and successes - and you can get a LOT of successes and advantage from a low set difficulty. This is, mind you, on top of the fact that for a Destiny Point, the power can be used as a maneuver to allow you to use it twice in a turn, but also for 4 extra strain to use it up to 3 times total in a turn.

 

EDIT: 2x Willpower for Burn Damage is a bit ridiculous. At least in the movies (anyone feel free to chime in with Legends or Clone Wars references - because I'm personally not super knowledgeable on those fronts) nobody is really ever shown to be set on fire/burning so much that it's the same as if there had been a Flame Projector taken to them.

Edited by Lathrop

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