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FFG_Sam Stewart

Beta Update 9

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I like the changes made to protect/unleash the double willpower got pretty out of control with the magnitude upgrades especially on the protect side since it adds to the soak of the characters making them nigh-invulnerable. The way attacks outscale defense/soak in this game I think the unleash side should stay double willpower and protect just willpower. That would fit more inline with the way combat is currently balanced.

 

Also IMO the magnitude upgrade should stay and the instead take out one of the range upgrades. The power starts out at short range and with 4 upgrades will be extreme range+1 so close on the planetary scale? Seems like a bit of overkill/unnecessary. Though on other hand the third 2nd magnitude may make the power too strong.

Edited by Eotempire

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Also a bit nitpicky but for Force Power: Battle Meditation (page 198):  

 

“If any black were used to generate on this check, each target affected must make an Easy Discipline check if he wishes to resist obeying any orders given by the user as part of this power.”

 

Shouldn't "must" be changed to "may" or "can" since it is now the characters choice to resist. 

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I like that Protect/Unleash's base effect has been dialed back down.  The Strength Upgrades have about the same effect on boosting how much damage is negated/absorbed and at Force Rating 3 characters with said power are bound to have an extra Force Point or two they can spend to trigger the Strength Upgrades as needed.  The older version did have the issue of making success on the Discipline check even more academic simply by adding successes as needed to overcome any failure symbols that weren't already canceled by positive dice rolled.

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It should be must. If you are given an order that you don't want to follow, you must make a check (and succeed) in order to ignore or resist that order.

If you "can" or "may" make a check, it means you could if you like make the check if you feel like it, not that you have to.

 

 It is the characters choice to try to resist

 

For instance

Darth Evulforthelulz <uses battle meditation and succeeds>  "Now kill those innocent jedi babies"

Obi-two-goodobi " I would never kill the innocent" < fails discipline check>, " I... Don't want this for any of you" < makes an attack roll with his weapon against the babies>

Darth Evulforthelulz "Mhuhahahahah"

Edited by Poseur

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The older version did have the issue of making success on the Discipline check even more academic simply by adding successes as needed to overcome any failure symbols that weren't already canceled by positive dice rolled.

This is true, and a good point. I really did like the Advantage option, but this is now a bit more balanced and more simple.

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Also a bit nitpicky but for Force Power: Battle Meditation (page 198):  

 

“If any black were used to generate on this check, each target affected must make an Easy Discipline check if he wishes to resist obeying any orders given by the user as part of this power.”

 

Shouldn't "must" be changed to "may" or "can" since it is now the characters choice to resist. 

 

If "must" was changed to "may" then it would be worded: "each target may make an Easy Discipline check if he wished to resist obeying" - which makes it sound like when disobeying, you don't have to make the check and still get the desired results. "Must" means the only way you can resist the orders, if you wanted to resist the orders, is to take the Discipline check - and it doesn't give the possibility of leaving it up for debate.

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Also IMO the magnitude upgrade should stay and the instead take out one of the range upgrades. The power starts out at short range and with 4 upgrades will be extreme range+1 so close on the planetary scale? Seems like a bit of overkill/unnecessary. Though on other hand the third magnitude may make the power too strong.

 

I'm not seeing a third Magnitude upgrade...? I only count two Magnitude upgrades. 

 

I agree that the new Strength upgrade should replace a Range upgrade, not one of only two Magnitude upgrades. 

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Also a bit nitpicky but for Force Power: Battle Meditation (page 198):  

 

“If any black were used to generate on this check, each target affected must make an Easy Discipline check if he wishes to resist obeying any orders given by the user as part of this power.”

 

Shouldn't "must" be changed to "may" or "can" since it is now the characters choice to resist. 

It was always the character's choice, they're just making that a little clearer now.

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@awayputurpwn yes you are correct there are only two. I was thinking affecting 3 people since the basic power starts at 1, but said three magnitude. 

 

 

@Revanchist7/Lathrop thanks for explaining it, I knew I should have refrained from mentioning that given my english/grammer ;) struggles haha. 

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If it remember using the dark side also lowers Willpower by one, so the roll isn't that easy. Also, could be destiny spent, either side, and setback dice. "Sure, ignoring that is an easy check, but everybody else does it, so here two black dice cuz peer pressure" 

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Bummer on the reduction of damage to Unleash & reduction of protection to Protect. With this and the change to the Strength upgrade, the power has really been nerfed. I was really digging the Update 7 version (double Willpower, Strength upgrades adding Success or Advantage).

 

Indeed.  The Strength upgrades make more sense now, but the re-nerfing means that Unleash is still far less potent than a starting character with a blaster rilfe until picking some Magnitude and Burn...

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Bummer on the reduction of damage to Unleash & reduction of protection to Protect. With this and the change to the Strength upgrade, the power has really been nerfed. I was really digging the Update 7 version (double Willpower, Strength upgrades adding Success or Advantage).

 

Indeed.  The Strength upgrades make more sense now, but the re-nerfing means that Unleash is still far less potent than a starting character with a blaster rilfe until picking some Magnitude and Burn...

Yeah, arguably, protect was probably the only thing that was maybe over powered. But even then, it does require a FR of three, so you would expect it to be somewhat potent.

Maybe they could make it so unleash works with the double wisdom rating and leave protect as is. Or, possibly, reduce the FR requirement to 2 for Protect/unleashed.

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I think the FR3+ is appropriate and jives with what we see in the movies vs. expected cumulative FR from the trees.

 

Balancing Unleash damage would be easier without the multipliers (again, Linked an Autofire on quotidian weaponry notwithstanding...), but I wouldn't want to see those go because versatility.  It's probably "done" for them now, so moot.  But still, I could see converting maybe another Range upgrade into a Strength?  I've lost count...

Edited by Lorne

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I think the FR3+ is appropriate and jives with what we see in the movies vs. expected cumulative FR from the trees.

Balancing Unleash damage would be easier without the multipliers (again, Linked an Autofire on quotidian weaponry notwithstanding...), but I wouldn't want to see those go because versatility. It's probably "done" for them now, so moot. But still, I could see converting maybe another Range upgrade into a Strength? I've lost count...

See, I like to realistically look at what you get for the price you pay in terms of xp and time spent to get it. I personally feel like there should be no force rating requirements for anything, and allow the mechanics of the power to dictate its use.

It requires you to get 2 force pips in order to pull off the power. At a FR that's only a 33% chance of happening; plus, most people are going to be using light side pips majority of the time anyway, so that means it's really a 25% chance. Never mind even using upgrades since you won't even generate enough pips at that level. So for me, the force rating is immaterial since you'll be failing to pull off the power more often than not.

But this is neither here nor there, and it seems as you said it's probably moot now. They most likely won't change it again. My overall point is that for a FR 3 power I'd think it would be a little more potent. Especially since-as everyone seems to love to stress on this forum-that achieving a FR 3 is a significant feat, and indeed, supposed to be something most characters possibly shouldn't even get to.

I'll see though. Going to be running my group this weekend and we'll test it out to see how it goes.

Edited by DeepEyes357

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If it remember using the dark side also lowers Willpower by one, so the roll isn't that easy. Also, could be destiny spent, either side, and setback dice. "Sure, ignoring that is an easy check, but everybody else does it, so here two black dice cuz peer pressure"

No...being a REALLY dark dark-sider (dropping below Morality 20) gives you a lower Strain Threshold...but there's no Willpower drop. Unless you're targeted by Batte Meditation using the dark side :) then there's a temporary drop in the target's Willpower. Otherwise your Willpower remains unmolested by use of the dark side.

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I dont think the Jedi in F&D are anything close to uber characters. It takes at least 300xp to have one power partially filled out and FR3 in order to activate it somewhat consistently, and thats all at the expense of developing any skills.  IME from the the high level games I've run the uber characters tend to be the min-maxers that focus on stealth, ranged heavy/autofire, or soak.

 

I feel that characters that go the force are "forced" to spread their xp out and even if they focus on only one power and picking up FR instead of dedications it takes quite a bit xp and leaves them pretty weak in anything non force.

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Regarding Protect/Unleash and it having one too many Range Upgrades...

 

First off, this same situation occurred with the Move power during the EotE Beta, where said book listed Move has having a default range of Engaged (making it little more than a party trick) but enough Range Upgrades to push the power's range out to Extreme.  During the Beta Update process, the base power was changed to have a default range of Short, but the extra Range Upgrade was left in place until the actual core rulebook came out, which swapped the placement of the Range Upgrades with the Magnitude Upgrades.

 

Also, Sam Stewart mentioned on Twitter in response to someone asking him about Protect/Unleash having so many Range Upgrades that it'd be something fixed in post (i.e. after the Beta test period is done), so I'd say it's pretty clear they are aware of the issue and have plans to address it, but likely don't have a final call on what to replace that extra Range Upgrade with just yet.

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