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The_Brown_Bomber

Auto bumping your own ships. Good or Bad for the game?

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For reference, here's the Worlds cheesefest which prompted the discussion

 

 

Someone also needs to point out how this is any different than the move up and down a side of the board we saw from "Typo" last night?

 

OK.  Here you go:

 

cheese-exploit_zpsa5378590.jpg

 

 

Take a good look at the above picture.  Look at the angles of approach the Imperial player has.

 

The Rebels are turtled up in the very corner of the board, facing inwards.  They can all move out of the corner any time they want.  And if they don't want to, there's not a **** thing the Imperials can do about it.

 

The Imperials cannot engage them until the Rebels choose to move out.  If they do, they are going to have to either

 

a: turn away from the combat and present their tasty and fragile behinds to the Rebels, giving the Rebel ships many turns of free shots.

b:  bump into the Rebels and cause a traffic jam in the corner or

c:  fly past the Rebels and straight off the board.

 

The Rebels are exploiting the movement mechanics of the game - literally sitting in place and not moving - as well as the game area (their backs are facing off the board, so they cannot be outflanked or attacked from behind) and their opponent's fragility (the Rebels can potentially one-shot a TIE fighter, the Imperials cannot one-shot an X-Wing).

 

It's exploitation of the rules - simple as that.  And totally against the spirit of the game.

 

Edit:  further analysis of the above image makes for grim reading.  Tactically, the Rebel player is using the elements of his list perfectly in this scenario.  We have:

 

Wedge

Biggs

Rookie Pilot

Airen Cracken with VI

 

The Rookie pilot is blocking both Cracken and Wedge, and is being blocked itself by Wedge.  Biggs is the ship tucked away furthest into the corner.

 

The opponent needs to shoot Biggs first if he's in range, but killing Biggs in this scenario doesn't break the structure of the fortress - Cracken and Wedge are still blocked in, and the Rookie is still blocked by Wedge.

 

Cracken with VI shoots first, and can then pass a free action onto Wedge.

 

If the opponent approaches the fortress and attempts to engage it, they will inevitably have to break off their attack and turn away.  They might be able to kill Biggs first, but even if they do they'll have three ships dropping into their six and pursuing them back into the middle of the board.

Edited by FTS Gecko

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If two of your ships bump your own ships and don't move for two consecutive turns then all ships involved receive 1 stress token and 1 ion token. Doesn't punish a strategic bump start. Doesn't punish new players because nobody is going to do that by accident.

Or just leave the game as is. It's so rare.

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Or just leave the game as is. It's so rare...

 

Somehow, I don't think it will be after this particular incident.

 

yeah its rare till this point because none had figured out how to abuse it. now the cat is out of the bag i think it likely others will be using the fortress tactic.

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Yeah, and the "fortress" nearly lost because of it. If the green dice had been a bit better, than no TIE would've died, thus goes to the Imperial player. You will pardon me if I see a sever problem with the "fortress" strategy. And someone needs to present evidence that Richard used this tactic more than in this one game for it to be a problem.

 

And Taste the Rainbow, an Ion token would actually continue the fortress in most cases.

 

The most important issue with it is, what happens when you are blocked. You bump your own ships because of what the opponent does. Higher PS pilots are already hurt because of it. With the proposals set, it will give way too much power to PS 1 blockers.

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Im very torn on this issue. Competitive wise i think is a strong tactic in certain situations. However I don't feel that it is how the game was envisaged to be played. So i wouldn't be surprised or sad if something happened to change it.

That said as it is its part of the rules for now its a viable tactic so can be used for now.

Edited by JustRob

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Someone also needs to point out how this is any different than the move up and down a side of the board we saw from "Typo" last night?

 

There is also the very important point in how this game really only worked out because it was into the single elimination rounds. Such a win isn't exactly great for your MOV in the swiss rounds. Single Elimination sadly changes what is viable in terms of strategy.

Edited by Sithborg

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Very interesting...  I don't think it should be errated or anything... I love how this game promotes varying types of strategies.  The game automatically discourages bumping ships by losing your actions, so all you are really gaining is a 'you have to come at me first' mentality...so you are forcing the opponent to attack you on your own terms...thing is, just about everyone doesn't have any actions to help defend themselves...

 

Unless I'm reading the strategy wrong and you just come out of the fortress when they get close and it's in your best tactical advantage...

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its sad that the imperial player felt the need to force the issue, he had the initiative so in theory the rebel player should have been in a position that if he didnt engage he would lose.

 

it seems the imperial player wanted to actually make a game of it, shame it cost him the chance at winning the world title.

 

I really hope that this doesn't catch on at tournaments in the future.

 

Also, FFG would probably have been pretty gutted if this was shown on twitch, wouldn't have been a good advertisement for the game. 

Edited by Mace Windu

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You are at least performing maneuvers, which gives you the opportunity to make a mistake, or have your opponent catch you off guard. With Richard's approach, he literally has to do nothing but wait. As soon as his opponent commits to an approach, he can react, and with the asteroid placement Joshua had two viable approaches. Now all Richard has to do is continue to flip his dials over and over, and wait for Joshua to come down 1 of two paths.

Honestly, I'm probably objectively compromised on this topic since i know both players personally and I'm thoroughly disgusted by Richard's game play towards a friend.

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Its a difficult balance. Flying smart to ensure tactical advantage through position is a great thing, that aspect of the game must not be lost.

I don't think that doing a start up fortress is quiet the same though.

You can build a list with 2 shuttles and 2 black squadrons with wingman that sit and never move. Apply hlc and your good to go.

Not a fun game or spirit of the game.

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I guess if I'm playing against a build I don't like or don't know how to fly against, I'll just stall in a corner for 40+ minutes and wait until the last shots of the game to win. 

 

I thought there was something in the rules about "infinite loop" or something like that. Wouldn't fortressing be consider an infinite loop?

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Honestly, I'm probably objectively compromised on this topic since i know both players personally and I'm thoroughly disgusted by Richard's game play towards a friend.

I was pretty shocked to hear that these two were friends. Someone should strip Hsu of that "Fly Casual" shirt he's wearing...

 

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time I've seen in this in large tournaments (though I've never heard of Hsu doing this).  I saw it several times at GC Nationals and heard that it was happening at the Dallas Regionals.  I don't care if it has counter strategies, it's not healthy for the game and I hope FFG evaluates this and makes a change.

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Surprised it hasn't been done before. Shuttle player have talked about it for a long time. Which with advanced sensors and more hull makes it better.

When the tournament rules dropped only needing to kill 1 tie for a full win. They really allows stalling to be a viable strategy.

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I thought there was something in the rules about "infinite loop" or something like that. Wouldn't fortressing be consider an infinite loop?

 

There is such a line, but I believe it relates to pilot abilities/upgrade cards, and unfortunately not to movement.  Because you're right, this is potentially an infinite loop exploit.

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