Dealing damage cards to destroyed ships

[DagobahDave 1,621]

I'm watching the live stream from Worlds right now, and both of the featured players are making what's probably a common error -- they're not dealing damage cards to their ships when they're getting destroyed.

 

From the core rulebook regarding damaged ships:

 

"For each damage or critical damage suffered, the ship must lose one shield token. If it has no shield tokens, it must receive one Damage card instead (see “Suffering Damage” on page 16).

 

"When the number of Damage cards dealt to a ship equals or exceeds its hull value (yellow number), that ship is destroyed (see “Destroying Ships” on page 16)."

 

Maybe this sounds like a quibble, but failing to deal damage cards in this way changes the distribution of critical hits you might receive later. You could be throwing away Direct Hits and Minor Explosions by making sure you're dealing damage cards correctly, which is to your benefit. And anyway, it's the rule, so do it.

[Royals 320]

Yeah, it's something we make sure to do, even in casual games.

[FTS Gecko 23,148]

You know, someone pointed this out to me at a tournament not long back, and it had never crossed my mind before.

 

I guess I'm so used to removing models form the table wholesale in other gaming systems (spit) that when a ship had no chance of surviving an attack, I just removed it on instinct...

[Parakitor 5,583]

@OP: True, but you can't really use that information, so it's all still random. It only informs the hindsight of "what might have been." I don't think it changes the game all that much. Still, it  is the rule, so if you know about it you should really do it. The other often overlooked piece is that you can take all your damage cards off your destroyed ship cards and place them in a pile face up next to your damage deck. So can you look through that pile?

[PhantomFO 8,979]

On the one hand, it does change the card distribution.

On the other hand, unless the opponent is cheating, there is no way to actually use that distribution. Unless you're flying Rexlar, you won't know what facedown cards you've dealt or received. It has no tangible effect on the game that either player can really notice.

[TasteTheRainbow 8,636]

Always. It looks cooler and that way I don't doubt my future crits.

[Ebak 1,102]

Question: Do you deal it a damage card for every damage dealt even if it then exceeds the amount? For example an A-Wing has 2 hull, if a ship does 4 damage to it, do I deal it 4 damage cards and then remove it, or only 2 since this is its hull value and remove it then?

[godofcheese 456]

Question: Do you deal it a damage card for every damage dealt even if it then exceeds the amount? For example an A-Wing has 2 hull, if a ship does 4 damage to it, do I deal it 4 damage cards and then remove it, or only 2 since this is its hull value and remove it then?

 

Yes, one card for each damage dealt, so a ship with 1 HP left who suffers 4 uncancelled damage, would be dealt 4 cards and then be removed.

[chilligan 1,302]

@OP: True, but you can't really use that information, so it's all still random. It only informs the hindsight of "what might have been." I don't think it changes the game all that much. Still, it  is the rule, so if you know about it you should really do it. The other often overlooked piece is that you can take all your damage cards off your destroyed ship cards and place them in a pile face up next to your damage deck. So can you look through that pile?

 

If they're crits you take them faceup, so you know you exhausted x critical hits and one blinded pilot etc.

[Blail Blerg 7,335]

I completely disagree. If they are face down it does not change the distribution or randomness of the next card at all.

Not dealing them also means you won't run out of cards as easily.

I used to play magic and the common consensus was that if it's random and facedown it's still fine. The exception was shuffling your deck in the case of mana screw because of the higher percentage of each card and also because of cheating.

Anyway. I think the damage deck is a rather stupid set of rules.

[Parakitor 5,583]

 

@OP: True, but you can't really use that information, so it's all still random. It only informs the hindsight of "what might have been." I don't think it changes the game all that much. Still, it  is the rule, so if you know about it you should really do it. The other often overlooked piece is that you can take all your damage cards off your destroyed ship cards and place them in a pile face up next to your damage deck. So can you look through that pile?

 

If they're crits you take them faceup, so you know you exhausted x critical hits and one blinded pilot etc.

 

But it says on page 16 you put all the damage cards attached to a destroyed ship into a face-up pile next to the damage deck. So you see them anyway.

[Blail Blerg 7,335]

 

 

@OP: True, but you can't really use that information, so it's all still random. It only informs the hindsight of "what might have been." I don't think it changes the game all that much. Still, it  is the rule, so if you know about it you should really do it. The other often overlooked piece is that you can take all your damage cards off your destroyed ship cards and place them in a pile face up next to your damage deck. So can you look through that pile?

 

If they're crits you take them faceup, so you know you exhausted x critical hits and one blinded pilot etc.

 

But it says on page 16 you put all the damage cards attached to a destroyed ship into a face-up pile next to the damage deck. So you see them anyway.

 

 

It does?  I'll look when I'm home.  Won't be the first... or tenth time I've been wrong about the rules.  

[Duraham 750]

It affects. When the damage deck runs out, all crits suffered becomes normal hits

[Mikael Hasselstein 6,896]

I get that it's the rule, but as others have pointed out, there's no appreciable effect on the game. The distribution of the unturned cards is and remains unknown, so they're just a bunch of Schrödinger's cats.

 

I think this just comes down to card-gamer Voodoo. If my opponent insists on doing it, it's fine by me, but I'll question the degree to which he is a rational being.

[Radzap 513]

Always spend those damage cards when applicable.

[godofcheese 456]

It does affect. If you run out of cards, you shuffle the cards from all of the destroyed ships and create a new deck. This means that you can have some crits again... even if 2 of them have come up already.

[Keffisch 2,642]

I saw the mistake in the live stream and it made me cringe.

[Magnus Grendel 10,575]

It is actually relevant in game as well (occasionally). If I kill a ship with the same pilot skill, it will fire back once (under the simultaneous fire rule) before it dies.

 

If I killed a shieldless fighter with one hit point left by dropping four critical hits on it (okay, that's an extreme example!), then I should deal all four face-up damage cards - because that substantially increases the chances of a critical hit which will either prevent it from firing, knock out it's secondary weapon, or remove a pilot ability that would make its attack more dangerous.

[Blail Blerg 7,335]

I'm not arguing when they are critical hits dealt.  I'm arguing jsut when they're normal damage.  Facedown is still random.  Again, its just the players intuition of luck, that has really no statistical merit and makes literally no difference.  

 

EVen if you run out... WAIT.  How many squad are there that can actually deplete 33 cards?  

Not Fat Han and 3Zs.  

4 or 3 lambdas seems like the only one.  no wait.  Taht one doesn't either cuz 5 of each are shields, not hull. 

 

Again, if you HADNT dealt out the extra hits, you would have had enough cards without having to LOOK UP THE DARNED RULE FOR WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU RUN OUT, SHUFFLE YOUR RANDOM CARDS BACK TOGETHER and dole out a new deck. 

 

--

 

and you know what would fix the running out of cards problem?  Printing a new damage deck that has a crit that gets rid of a;sdlnlasdj;lcdsmlkmds crew and ASTROMECHS.  Go up to 50 cards.  The time difference in counting them is negligible.  

The current damage deck is incredibly biased against Imperials (as its designed to be), but more so than it should be.  

Oh yet another reason why Tie Bombers suck.  Cuz most crits really hurt them.  Especially Munitions Failure.  Which I SWEAR always happens in a game with a Tie Bomber. 

Edited November 7, 2014 by Blail Blerg

[Marinealver 8,068]

The only thing it could do is cycle through the damage deck faster. If you run out of cards you will have to take all the damage cards from destroyed ships and reshuffle them into the damage deck. If that is still not enough then turn all critical hits to hits and use a suitable marker (the critical damage token) to count as face down damage cards.

[WonderWAAAGH 7,153]

ITT: it's okay to ignore inconvenient rules.

[Marinealver 8,068]

I'm not arguing when they are critical hits dealt.  I'm arguing jsut when they're normal damage.  Facedown is still random.  Again, its just the players intuition of luck, that has really no statistical merit and makes literally no difference.  

 

EVen if you run out... WAIT.  How many squad are there that can actually deplete 33 cards?  

Not Fat Han and 3Zs.  

4 or 3 lambdas seems like the only one.  no wait.  Taht one doesn't either cuz 5 of each are shields, not hull. 

 

Again, if you HADNT dealt out the extra hits, you would have had enough cards without having to LOOK UP THE DARNED RULE FOR WHAT TO DO WHEN YOU RUN OUT, SHUFFLE YOUR RANDOM CARDS BACK TOGETHER and dole out a new deck. 

 

--

 

and you know what would fix the running out of cards problem?  Printing a new damage deck that has a crit that gets rid of a;sdlnlasdj;lcdsmlkmds crew.  Go up to 50 cards.  The time difference in counting them is negligible.  

4 Scimitar squadron and 3 Academy Pilots have exactly 33 hull. So if you over shoot one of them you will run out of cards.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Marinealver

[Rithrin 222]

An all Tie Bomber list can require you to go through more than the whole damage deck - it's 100% Hull, especially if you stick to the rule and deal cards out for surplus damage over the hull value.

 

The only time I make any kind of deal about my opponent sticking to this rule is when there are crits that should be revealed, only because it's actual information that you can learn. Even then, it matters very little. It's a rare case that you'll see all seven Direct Hits laid out and, even then, you probably shouldn't fly your Interceptors any looser as a result.

[Blail Blerg 7,335]

Double post 

Edited November 7, 2014 by Blail Blerg

[FTS Gecko 23,148]

And you know what would fix the running out of cards problem?  Printing a new damage deck that has a crit that gets rid of a;sdlnlasdj;lcdsmlkmds crew and ASTROMECHS.  Go up to 50 cards.  The time difference in counting them is negligible.  The current damage deck is incredibly biased against Imperials (as its designed to be), but more so than it should be...  

 

That would create more problems than it "solves" (solves being a subjective term because everyone needs to be in agreement that there is a problem, and as far as I'm concerned the current Damage Deck does it's job just fine).

 

The first problem being distribution.  Say FFG prints a new damage deck which addresses all your particular issues (Crits affecting Astromechs which become standard hits against 90% of the ships they're dealt to?  Is that really necessary?) - how do they get them to the players?  Does every X-Wing player everywhere have to buy the new, "improved" damage deck as a stand alone expansion?  Does FFG add it to all new Core Sets printed and "ban" owners of the original Core Sets using the original damage deck?  What would you do when you encountered a casual player still using the original damage deck, who didn't know an "upgrade" existed?  Refuse to play them?  Do you see how this ill-conceived idea is already starting to fall apart under scrutiny?