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jesper_h

Picking your opponent's maneuver in a tournament

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This happened to me. My opponent flew me straight off the board without blinking, and in his position I would have done the same thing and never looked back.

Daydreaming/absent mindedness should have lethal consequences in a dogfight, because IRL...

Edited by Bakura83

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There is a difference between a mistake and a poor decision. Winning against one of them can be fun. Winning against the other is not.

 

A mistake may not be a poor decision, but a poor decision is certainly a mistake.

 

I probably wouldn't call someone petty, but a LOT of people would if you publicly blocked an obvious error(again, completely different than a poor decision) that had a game-ending effect.

So when you said "I think you'd come across pretty petty flying someone off the board over an alternate art Solo." you didn't mean you'd think they were petty, just that other people might?  Or did you mean that you wouldn't call someone petty, but you'd certainly think they were?

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There's a lot of righteousness going on about the "right way to play," which is a bunch of bunk, when you're talking competitive situations. There are two aspects to that: 1, the rules themselves which govern play: the "right" way to play is following the rules (and, in fact, have specifically addressed this scenario within a competitive play environment), and 2, sportsmanship, the way to conduct yourself while you play.

 

The rules are clear, you can pick whichever maneuver you want. That is the letter and intent of the law. There is nothing in there that suggests or advocates for disadvantaging yourself when your opponent makes a mistake. Mistakes are a part of the game, and how you manage the stress of competitive play. If you choose to ease up, that's within your rights, but honestly, in a competition, I would EXPECT to be screwed in this scenario. It was my mistake and for someone to ease up could easily be construed as condescending as much as sportsmanlike. I don't expect my opponent to purposefully make a mistake (not fly my ship off when given a chance) just because I did. If he did that, great, nice guy, but if I came back to win, how much would he regret that decision? Further, does it make anyone a better player to be let off the hook? No. Personally, I want repercussions for my mistakes, be it oversights like this, or simply bad maneuver choices, bad actions, reading poor angles, poor shot priorities, etc., as they all contribute to being better at the game, which is more fun (within competitive settings). The absolute best games are those between skilled players making high-level decisions and the best way to get better to hold yourself (and your opponent) to those standards so that you elevate your play.

 

The sportsmanship angle is separate from the tactical angle, but not mutually exclusive. Sportsmanship, fly casual, whatever you want to call it, is how you conduct yourself. In this scenario, you can certainly take the best move (flying the ship off) and still be sporting and friendly. Again, I think it could just as easily be construed as condescending to let people "take back" moves and frankly, I don't think it sets a good stage for me, my fellow players, the other players in the tournament that this person (and myself) will play, and the overall standings by arbitrarily bending the rules. The rules are clear and there is no malice in applying them advantageously. FFG did this for a reason and, coming from other game systems that were not nearly this well-designed, it is great to have that. You don't have to be a jerk about it, but the reality is that you are entitled to pick that best move, not feel "guilty" about it, and still have a good time with your opponent. Again, it's all about the environment created when you are playing with your opponent, and being congenial with each other should not demand that you are lax with the rules to show what a good bro you are. Further, the worst cases of sportsmanship I have ever encountered were situations like this where the other player felt entitled to redo moves, probably because of some well-intentioned, but misguided "fly casual" mantra that was misinterpreted to mean that bending the rules was OK, but calling people on that meant you were a WAAC jerk.

 

Short story long, it's perfectly fine to pick the fly off move, and if we were playing, I wouldn't let you let me off the hook. You don't need to fix my mistakes, and by letting me try to fight my way out of it, we'll both be more satisfied that everything was done to have a good game and I'll be a better, more alert player by having to reconcile for my own mistakes. In the end, I will have way more fun through this than any of the outcomes that could come by the mercy rule being invoked. Sportsmanship does not mandate putting the kid gloves on, it's how you interact and get along. THAT is what fly casual is about, IMO.

Edited by R2ShihTzu

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Personally I've been flown off the board in a tourney, though it was from attempting a red maneuver while stressed.

It was a mistake I'll never forget.

I think not taking the winning play is doing a disservice to your opponent, by robbing them of a learning experience.

Fly casual means don't be a prick about how the game turns out. I see no reason to feel bad for making the winning choice. It is how everyone gets better at the game. Emmanuel Lasker didn't get great at chess because his opponents took it easy on him.

It truly is your choice on what to do in situations such as this, but if I make this mistake, I'll expect you to fly me off the board, because that is what you can expect from me.

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People are sure getting snippy about the "right" and "wrong" way to play, all of which will never be more than personal opinions.

 

Anyways, I'll weigh in with MY opinion.  If it were me, I'd spin the dial randomly without looking at it and see what happens.  Why?  Because if my opponents ship flew off the board, I'd feel cheated.  I want to beat my opponents ships with weapons fire not by careening them off the field.  I'll admit that is both selfish and conceited, mercy is a guilty pleasure I'm quite fond of.  And if my opponent came back to beat me, I'd be happier than if I'd won by sending his ship off.  That being said, mistakes should have consequences... if randomness takes the ship off the board, its just like the luck of the dice and one way or another I'll live with the luck of the dice.

 

We make our own decisions based on our own perceptions of the world, so please keep that in mind.

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I have thought about it several times, the rules I think say you get to choose their move, that puts the guilt to some extent on you, especially if you like to play someone at heir best.  Sometimes i think a good idea would be let them pick their move, but no actions, pilot skills and no combat this turn, so if he brings the ship into a combat situation you in effect get a free shot, if he moves it away then at least for one turn you have an advantage.  You put the guilt where it should be on the player that made the error. 

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Sometimes i think a good idea would be let them pick their move, but no actions, pilot skills and no combat this turn...

But that's not what the rule says, and in this case not what the TO ruled. It's not like you can just decide to enforce some rules and not enforce others.

Also I will once again point out that what you doesn't just affects you, it affects everyone in that tournament, because you're effectively giving the guy a better MoV than he should really have. So your mercy just removed someone else from the top 4 or 8, and IMO did so in a completely unfair way.

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So he has the dial somewhere right?  Wouldn't the most obvious fix be to just make him use whatever move is on the dial (most likely the same move as last turn if he forgot to set it).

 

Otherwise if it was up to me to pick a move, I'd probably do something in between, not necessarily do what he would have wanted, but not do something super mean like fly him off the table or onto an asteroid or something.  Maybe fly him in the general direction he was probably going but purposely make him bump someone so he loses his action.

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Now that I think about it; IF  this game ever gets a second edition I'd advocate the rule for no maneuver selected / illegal maneuver selected be changed to:

 

If no dial is placed, no maneuver is clearly selected or a red maneuver is selected for a ship with a stress token, the ship immediately performs a straight white maneuver with speed equal to the speed of the lowest speed straight maneuver on the ship's dial.  That ship may not perform actions or attack until after the following planning phase.

 

 

FFG put the responsibility for these decisions on the players and I do not think that is appropriate for competitive play.

 

A proscribed certainty would prevent needless arguments but in the meantime we'll just have to make do with the rules as written.

Edited by Duty Remains

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As of now all ships have a 2 straight that is green.

 

So I just pick 2 straight green whenever that happens. It is fast and saves time.

 

IMHO I wouldn't mind if they change the FAQ to those that set a wrong dial or forget to set dial then they automatically execute a 2 straight white maneuver. It sort of makes sense if the pilot is not paying attention and is just drifting/semi-cruising along. Also it removes the inherent advantage of having a green maneuver to remove stress. If the pilot is that out of it then they probably going to need more time to get back in the groove.

 

Now I know there are players who want to PUNISH the insolent noob who forgot how to play the game and make them do something like K turn or run off the board or onto asteroids on in front of the firing arcs of 4 b-wings. However I look at that as nothing more than taking a freebie that is really unnecessary. The rules as of now give them that option so they are perfectly within their right to take it, and so in a tournament where everyone wants to win you can count on that happening.

 

Still I think 2 straight white is simple and punishing enough but I don't make the rules, so even if my opponent agrees to considering it a white maneuver it is still a green and they can remove the stress. Still I just turn it into a 2 straight green so we can continue the game without having me debate on how I can mind control my new thrall into oblivion.

Edited by Marinealver

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VanorDM, please use the complete post and not take it out of context, the rules are the rules and I DO follow them, it was a comment related the conversion in general.  What would I do, the thing that was most advantageous to my position, send him off the board, yes if that were the best move.  Slow down a little, no one wants to see anyone get an unfair advantage, or see someone unjustly bumped from a better position, just comments on trying to keep it casual.  As my favorite coach used to say," Winning isnt the everything, its the only thing"(thats about how casual I am)

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Honestly, OP.. I think you did the honerable thing, and didn't use his oversight against him too badly.

That said, in a tourney, what do you think he would have done.. probably set you off the mat or on course for that.

Any tourney is about winning, and as long as it wasn't seen as unfair, I think you should have set him for the loss. Personally I wouldn't feel guilty. He made a mistake, the TO ruled you could do as you wish basically. You were the nice guy.. not many would have done that.

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In my first ever tournament, well, only tournament - I ran a unique list, 3 Bs and an ORS and was placed against an eventual top-3 finisher for my first match. He was flying a swarm. I beat him from pillar to post right off the hop, he slowly made a comeback but I was still comfortably ahead.

 

I chose the opposite maneuver to the one I wanted, a 1-turn he wrong way with my ORS and flew him off the board, the game ended at the conclusion of this very turn and he squeaked out a victory as a result, having only a few tie fighters remaining, all of them crippled from what I remember. 

 

He offered to allow me to rectify my mistake, but I didn't take him up on it. Finished fourth ultimately. Had I taken his offer, I'd have won the whole show - my first ever tourny with a non-traditional list I made up myself. Woulda been huge bragging rights :D

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Here's the thing about tournament ettiquette in my mind. You should probably let your opponent correct obvious mistakes. Someone makes a hard 3 left instead of right and flies off the board? Dumb mistake. 4k picked when they are stressed (and aren't flying a defender)? Dumb mistake. Sure, correct it with whatever you want. I don't care. I stress dumb mistake here, and not hindsight movement corrections.

Even forgetting things certain special rules, like having a fire control system, I will remind my opponent of.

If I'm not in the running, I'll let me opponent keep ships on the board in the rare moments where an unforeseen bump knocks them off.

We are playing for a few tokens and a card with alternative art. I couldn't care less about any of that. The rare times I have won more than a card, I just gave my stuff away. I have plenty of cardboard tokens already, and don't need a card box.

However, I don't think you should expect your opponent to let you correct any of this, or ask for it. I try very hard not to make stupid mistakes, but when I do, I accept them for what they are. If I forgot to target lock after shooting with a fire control system, and it's the next turn, I need to pay more attention. If I am offered to correct the mistake, I definitely will, but you shouldn't expect that from people.

 

 

FFG sanctioned tournaments such as store championships, regionals, gencon, and worlds...off the board you go.

But not escalation?

Edited by Breaking The Law

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This dilemma happens to me more often than I would expect. Mostly it is due to my opponent reveling a red maneuver with a stressed ship. Every time this happens I choose the maneuver that is to my greatest advantage. if the ship can perform a maneuver that will take it off the board then I choose it.

I know it sounds harsh, but I am more interested in improving my opponents future capability than giving them a handicap that might cause them to continue to make the mistake.

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I agree with several here that it depends upon the situation. It is the opponent's choice and they have to live with their decision after the match too! So depending upon the opponent and/or situation, I would pick the maneuver accordingly!

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I goofed in a tournament once and plotted a red maneuver while my shuttle had a stress token, thanks Firespray for blocking my view! My opponent flew my ship off the board and turned his loss into a win. I chock it up to a hard lesson to remember to peer around blocking ships.

Next time when it was my turn to plot my opponents move, instead of flying his Jonus off the table I instead made him k turn 5 and land right on the proton I just dropped. It also racked up hits on all 3 of his ships. Much better to me than just running him off.

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Honestly, it depends on my opponent. I'm a good judge of character and I would act according to what I believe they would do if the situation was reversed. Since I play in my local a lot I get to see how people play often, especially in tournaments. If I know someone would send me off the board I will also send him off the board, but if the person is someone who I know is a definite follower of 'fly casual' I will most likely do what the OP did and just perform a move that doesn't take him off but makes it a problem to get the ship into the game as soon as he intended.

Edited by Ebak

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