Scum Dials Answer??

[LordTaos 28]

Casual play "MAY" allow my son to use rebel & scum dials together. Probably true. A local store tournament "MAY" allow the same. Maybe. A regional tournament won't. If there were any differences with the dials other than the art work, it would be perfectly reasonable and I could accept it. However, they are identical except for the artwork.

 

So my 4 Rebel Z's can't fly with the 2 Z's that come in this package, even though all 4 will have correct cards, only 1 will have the proper base token, and they are all missing dials. Even though the rebel dial have identical maneuvers. Heck, and I can't use the Scum Z's as rebels either, because I don't have 2 additional rebel Z dials, even though I have enough base tokens and cards to support it.

 

On a different note... any chance there will be a YT-1300 Scum version?

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Most wanted includes enough pilot cards and base inserts to run 3 Zs (and 3 Ys) in SOME combination. Yes, you can't run any conceivable combination but no one has been suggesting that you can. If you proxy in a rebel model and dial you CAN run 3 scum Zs. You might be forced to run 2 Binayres and a specific named, or 2 Black Suns and the other named, but the limiting factor is the model and dial. Again, I think that is fine, you are buying an expansion to the scum faction, not an expansion for the Z95 and Y-Wing, but apart from the dials and models there are enough parts to run 3 of those ships, just like in a regular expansion there are enough parts (except for dials and models, just like this one) to run 2-3 ships.

[godofcheese 456]

There are alternatives to the two cases you suggest, godofcheese:

1) not require scum specific dials for 'shared' cross-faction ships; saves money because scum dials aren't necessary.

2) put enough scum dials in MW to cover the max amount of ship types - 2 for Firespray, etc - to allow faction specific dials in tournaments; more expensive and for some unnecessary, as they wouldn't want 8 Scum Zs.

3) sell Scum upgrade packs; more expensive for players, but only those committed to Scum, but less costly than buying ships already owned.

4) include multiple dials in shared ship expansions; only works for future releases, unless combined with (3), but bumps up the expansion cost, while providing players with a lot of choice.

Clearly, this is the first time ships have gone cross-faction, but I know many want a Rebel refit for the shuttle, which is canon. FFG have a chance to reverse this decision or make it seem less "money hat" as it is definitely risking take up of Scum & Villainy in its current form

DoctorMike

 

1. No, mixed dials leads to confusion. I've already had opponants pick up my dial in Rebel v Rebel and Imp v Imp games, how will they go when someone has all Imp dials.... except that one. Also; distracts from the look and feel of the game simply because people feel they should get something for nothing.

 

2. That was one of the suggestions I made, and as both of us pointed out, MORE EXPENSIVE for the player.

 

3. I agree they could do this, but they would have to do this in addition to selling scum specific crossed ships, which then adds to production costs for them, for no benefit in sales.

 

4. You said yourself, it would make things more expensive, which was my whole point. What they've done is the best they could have done when maximising the crossover between low cost to the community and their production costs. Every other suggestion requires a bump UP in the price for customers, or a decline in the playing experience.

[Hatemonger 180]

...simply because people feel they should get something for nothing.

I don't understand this attitude. It is not asking FFG to simply send out packages of new dials to everyone who already bought a HWK. It is not asking "something for nothing," it is asking something for something. Specifically, that a player be allowed to use something he already bought, with something else he is also buying.

There seems to be an implication that the mixed-dial proponents are cheapskates trying to save a dollar or two on a Z-95, as opposed to people trying to avoid re-buying an entire fleet, or paying 2-3x normal cost to add another ship to their list.

Think about this: how much does it cost to buy a 2-Firespray Scum squad? How much is it to add a 3rd Y-Wing to a list? Those costs do not seem either reasonable or trivial to me, and frankly it seems almost rude to imply it is.

And the confusion/aesthetic arguments... I mean, I understand the reasoning. What I don't understand it how that reasoning holds up in the face of other standard practices. Yes, it would look nicer if all my dials were the same color. It would also look nicer if my ships weren't painted in a rainbow of clashing florescent colors, but I am allowed to do that.

I'm allowed to use a normal TIE Interceptor as a Royal Guard pilot, and use a red Interceptor as Soontir Fel, even deliberately "backwards" in the same list - and how is that not confusing?

On that note, how about the fact that I can fly a whole scum list using Rebel Y- and Z- models? That will be great when I play against a Rebel squad.

Or, if you're really concerned that all my dials be the same color, how about I play with all Rebel dials? That can't possibly be worse than allowing faction mirror matches, because I could literally play the same squad - Rebel models with Rebel dials. Right?

Now, as long as we're talking about confusion, let's think about a new player. Imagine you work in a game store, you're talking to someone who is interested in X-Wing (i.e. a potential new player/customer), and he asks you what he needs to buy in order to start playing. "Well," you say, "you'll need the core set, which will teach you the rules, give you the common components needed to play, and a ship or two to start off either faction."

Then he asks, "What about after that?"

Answer up until now: "Just buy whatever ships you like. They all have their uses in various ways, they all come with everything you need to use them, plus some other interesting things that can be used with other ships."

Answer now: Same as above, but you have to add, "Unless of course you want to play the Scum faction. Then the ships in the core box are useless, so you'll basically be buying it just for the templates and dice. You'll also have to buy this other box that costs just as much. Then you'll have a whole squad - assuming you want those exact ships.

"Otherwise, you can buy one of these Scum packs, or you can buy one of this, this, or this ship from the other factions... unless you buy more than one of those, in which case you'll need to also buy another one of those core-box-priced sets in order to get one lousy cardboard circle. But hey, at least you'll have a bunch of Zeds!"

Can you imagine having that conversation? Can you envision his expression? Do you see his face lighting up in anticipation? Or do you see his eyes widening in panic, and then glazing over in apathy? You might as well just tell him, "Don't play Scum."

Most Wanted is a good deal for people who already bought two of everything, and plan to buy two of everything new. For other people, it's actually rather restrictive. The only way to use over half of the faction's ships is to buy a $40 box, which creates a barrier to entry for many people. Allowing the re-use of old dials mitigates this somewhat; requiring new dials exacerbates it.

 

- H8

[VanorDM 11,599]

Specifically, that a player be allowed to use something he already bought, with something else he is also buying.

No it's not.

You want to use that Rebel Z-95 you bought as a Scum Z-95. They are not the same thing, so your whole argument falls apart because of that.

The only way to use over half of the faction's ships is to buy a $40 box, which creates a barrier to entry for many people.

How in the world do you figure this?

The only way to use over half the Rebel or Imperial ships is to buy them... So how exactly do you figure a $40 package that has 3 ships in it is a barrier? If the only thing you use out of it is the 3 ships, you're still ahead by $5.

If you have a Firespray or HWK, or 2nd Y-Wing you're even farther ahead because you're effectively getting those ships for the same cost as the 3 models in the box.

Edited November 17, 2014 by VanorDM

[Parravon 5,217]

I can't believe how the Scum Faction has managed to generate so much negative argument. The answer is quite simple. FFG have decided on what to do about the dials. If you don't like it, don't buy the Scum Faction. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything, but there are some posters here that seem to believe otherwise.

 

Most Wanted has introduced spare components for ships that aren't included in the pack, that a lot of players will already have. That's a great bargain, but for some that's still not good enough. Others are complaining that you can't just buy the Most Wanted pack on its own, and you now have to buy extra ships to make it useful. Just how is that any different from the other factions? Just ask the TIE Swarm player.

 

It hasn't been marketed as a "complete squad" pack, but it's no different from buying a core set with it's three ships. I originally held back from buying a core set because there was only three ships in it, and the fact it was NZ$70 at the time. I've now bought a HWK specifically with Most Wanted in mind, and I've actually found it rather useful in Rebel builds. 

 

As for "creating a barrier to entry", this was't marketed as an entry level or a stand-alone pack. If you look on the back of every expansion pack, it says "Not a Complete Game. X-Wing Core Set Required to Play." Clearly Most Wanted, and the other Scum ships are aimed at the gamer that has bought more than just the core set. Just like every other expansion for the game!

[StevenO 2,996]

I can't believe how the Scum Faction has managed to generate so much negative argument. The answer is quite simple. FFG have decided on what to do about the dials. If you don't like it, don't buy the Scum Faction. No one is forcing anyone to buy anything, but there are some posters here that seem to believe otherwise.

 

 

No Forcing someone to buy something is misleading.  If you want to run a single Predator upgrade on Wedge FFG forces you to but a TIE Defender.  If you want to run multiple ships with Predator then you are forced to buy multiple Defenders.  It sure looks to me like there will be upgrades in most wanted that will force a player to buy it even if they have no intention on playing Scum.

 

I wonder how many of you who are so dead set that the dial must match the faction go out and buy ships with no qualms about how much you are spending to get your ships.  Base tokens and pilot cards have already been an accepted limit on ships but now it seems one more needs to be added.  It's also crazy because the rule will allow me to "personalize" my dials so that I can tell them apart from other yet when they put a different picture on the dial it would be illegal.

 

If FFG wanted to make sure Rebel Z-95s could only be used in Rebel squadrons and Scum Z-95s could only be used in Scum squadrons they should have found a different ship to use one of those places!  If you wanted to switch from a 6 Z-95 Rebel swarm to a 6 Z-95 Scum swarm you may not need to change models but you would need to change everything else.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

If you want to run a single Predator upgrade on Wedge FFG forces you to but a TIE Defender.  If you want to run multiple ships with Predator then you are forced to buy multiple Defenders.

 

You're not forced to buy the cards at all.

 

If you play casually, then proxy them - no need to purchase.

 

If you want to enter a tournament, then you can borrow the cards from friends.  Failing that, build another squadron based around the upgrades you own.

 

Why do some tournament players think that they can enter a tournament without needing to own the required gear?

Edited November 18, 2014 by TezzasGames

[Parravon 5,217]

So who is being forced into buying ships just because they think they need a particular card? FFG aren't forcing anything. If you want to run Wedge with Predator and you don't have the card, then you can't run the combo. If a proxy card is OK with your opponent, then there's still no problem. But I still don't see any of the FFG "heavies" on my doorstep telling me to buy a CR90 or they'll break my kneecaps. 

Every purchase in this game system is by player choice. Telling everyone that FFG forces you to buy stuff is just a load of rubbish.

[Hatemonger 180]

Specifically, that a player be allowed to use something he already bought, with something else he is also buying.

No it's not.

You want to use that Rebel Z-95 you bought as a Scum Z-95. They are not the same thing, so your whole argument falls apart because of that.

I also bought a Rebel Y-wing. That seems to be quite usable as a Scum Y-Wing, and in fact, they're obviously encouraging it by including the extra dial in the box. If the faction ships are not the same thing, could you show me the pack where I buy a Scum Firespray?

 

The only way to use over half of the faction's ships is to buy a $40 box, which creates a barrier to entry for many people.

How in the world do you figure this?

Sorry, I was a bit ambiguous about that part. I'll try to break it down better.

Ship types available for Scum:

Z-95

Y-Wing

HWK-290

Firespray

Scyk

Starviper

IG-2000

The last three work just like all previous ship expansions: if you want to add the ship to your fleet, you buy the pack, and you have what you need.

The first four do not. You cannot just go out and buy a scum HWK, a scum Y-Wing, a scum Firespray, and one scum Z-95, and have the fleet you want. You have to have some number of Most Wanted sets in order to field any of them at all. Thus, in order to field 4/7 (which is >50%) of the faction's allowed ship types, you must buy the Most Wanted box, regardless of how much of that you actually wish to field.

 

The only way to use over half the Rebel or Imperial ships is to buy them... So how exactly do you figure a $40 package that has 3 ships in it is a barrier? If the only thing you use out of it is the 3 ships, you're still ahead by $5.

You're only ahead $5 if you planned on buying those three ships anyway. What if you wanted 3 Z-95's and no Y-wings? Then you're behind by $10, AND you've now got to buy another box! That's $80 to add 3 Z-95's to my IG-88!

The way you buy Imperial and Rebel ships is to spend $15 (or $30) and get exactly the ship you want.

 

If you have a Firespray or HWK, or 2nd Y-Wing you're even farther ahead because you're effectively getting those ships for the same cost as the 3 models in the box.

That is true, but like you said, only if you already own those models. But ok, let's go with that. Say you own one of each of those, and Most Wanted. Now let's say you want to add a second Firespray. How much does that cost?

Firespray pack + Most Wanted = $70USD

That is more than the Rebel Transport Epic ship! Does that really not seem at all strange to you?

- H8

[Parravon 5,217]

 

Now where's the "Unfollow this Topic button"? CLICK!

[VanorDM 11,599]

I also bought a Rebel Y-wing. That seems to be quite usable as a Scum Y-Wing, and in fact, they're obviously encouraging it by including the extra dial in the box.

Are you honestly complaining about getting extra stuff?

Firespray pack + Most Wanted = $70USD That is more than the Rebel Transport Epic ship! Does that really not seem at all strange to you?

No not in the least. Because you're not just getting the S&V Firespray.

You are getting 2 S&V Z-95's, 1 S&V Y-Wing, 1 Imperial Firespay, and the dials, pilots, basecards, ect... for 1 more S&V Y-Wing, a S&V Firespray and a S&V HWK-290. Plus all the other upgrades that come with MW and Firespay.

$75 worth of models for $70 plus all the extras, seems like a pretty killer deal to me.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

You're only ahead $5 if you planned on buying those three ships anyway. What if you wanted 3 Z-95's and no Y-wings? Then you're behind by $10, AND you've now got to buy another box! That's $80 to add 3 Z-95's to my IG-88!

If being 'behind' by $5 or $10 matters that much to you, then maybe you need another hobby?

[Hatemonger 180]

Ok. Sorry for my ignorance. I think I understand now.

 

Using a Rebel Z-95 as a Scum Z-95 is completely stupid because they are obviously completely different, but using a Rebel Y-Wing as a Scum Y-Wing is completely ok, because that situation is completely different, because reasons.

 

And me pointing that out is me hating free stuff, even if I didn't necessarily want the free stuff, and therefore the free stuff is free stuff I shoud love, and definitely not ever possibly extra bloat attached to the one ship I wanted to buy, because if I don't like paying extra money for ships I didn't want, I'm in the wrong hobby.

 

Two plus two equals five. We have always been at war with Eurasia.

 

And at last, I agree with Parravon. And I owe him thanks, because until now, I did not know there was an unfollow button.

 

- H8

[VanorDM 11,599]

I think I understand now.

Clearly you do, but you're still making up stuff to try and make a point and failing miserably at it.

 

Using a Rebel Z-95 as a Scum Z-95

You're not using a Rebel Z-95 as a Scum Z-95, but I'm pretty sure you actually know that, just are pissy because you don't like the answer.

You use a Scum Z-95 as a Scum Z-95 and a Rebel Z-95 as a Rebel Z-95, they're not the same thing. They're different pilots, different base cards, different dials...

[AtillaTheFun 82]

Hatemonger is ignoring other perspectives and has tunnel vision on his or her perspective alone.

The only somewhat valid point being made is that in order to field 3 scum z-95s or y-wings you need to buy a second conversion pack. Get over it. If they did things the way you wanted ($15 S&V blisters for small ships) you'd be paying $45 for your 3 Z-95s, which is ONLY worth it if that's all you want out of that pack. The VAST majority of players would like to take full advantage of all or most of what that pack has to offer. For them, a conversion pack is a great deal because it let's you use existing ship models you have and not have to pay $25 for yet another firespray when all you want is the cards and dial and not a whole other $25 ship. So realize that this is a fantastic deal for the vast majority of the player community and if you and a couple other people don't like it then sorry but deal with it.

Let's use myself as a case study. I want to have every ship available to use from S&V. If they packaged everything separately I'd be spending a total of $100 to obtain all of those ships instead of paying $40 for 3 models and cards that allow me use my existing models as new faction ships.

For a new player looking to get into scum and villainy it's STILL a bargain because you're getting 3 small ships for $40 instead of $45!

Your main beef with this as far as I can tell is that you wanna use rebel dials for scum ships and they don't give you three z-95 dials in the expansion. Find a friend who's willing to lend you the extra dial if you're playing in a tournament. Easy solution.

[godofcheese 456]

You are not entitled to anything. This is a game, it requires resources, and the rules tell you what resources you need.

 

The game is incredibly balanced, and if you CHOOSE to play the game, you can basically play anything and be competitive.

 

Don't want to fork out the money for a Tantive? Fine, don't play a Fat Han (C-3P0 card) build. Doesn't mean you can't field a skinny Chewie, or not play with a Falcon at all.

 

Don't want to play a Phantom? Fine, there's lots of other competitive lists

 

Don't want to fork out hte money for Most Wanted? Fine, either play Scum only using the new ships, or don't play Scum.

 

We keep hearing that they are MAKING you buy it because you WANT. That's not how it works, you are MADE to if you MUST (and the game is balanced enough, that even if playing it was compulsary (and some would say it should be ) it is still a CHOICE as to what you WANT to buy and field.

[TIE Pilot 3,501]

What exactly is being discussed? FFG have said you need to use the dials matching your faction. Tournament-wise, you have to have the right dials. MW comes with the components for a Firespray, a HWK, two Y-wings and two Z-95s. Casual, mix and match as much as you want: it's casual and nobody's going to stop you.

[Marinealver 8,073]

What exactly is being discussed? FFG have said you need to use the dials matching your faction. Tournament-wise, you have to have the right dials. MW comes with the components for a Firespray, a HWK, two Y-wings and two Z-95s. Casual, mix and match as much as you want: it's casual and nobody's going to stop you.

There are many people here who do not believe in casual play.

 

As I said before if you are at home and you have a friend over who is using your models and wants to play 4 z-95 (2 bandits 2 talas) but all you have are 2 z-95s and a MW pack then sure why not use the scum and the rebel dials as long as you have the models. It is not like FFG is going to send a TO straight to your door to tell you are not in compliant with the rules.

 

However for official events such as tournaments then of course you will need matching dials. This is FFG's game and their event that they are hosting so of course you will play by their rules. No house rules when you are not at home.

[TIE Pilot 3,501]

If you're only playing tournament then it's much more simple.

 

Most Wanted contains two Z-95s, two Y-wings, one Firespray and one HWK. Not seeing the issue beyond that.

[Olancho 0]

Would it be allowed in tournaments to use the Ace Maneuver dials with the two scum and two rebel Z-95 dials?  Assume for purposes of discussion that the pilot cards and ship cards are not an issue for purposes of this question.  Only need to know if the 4 same faction Ace Maneuver dials resolve the question to meet tournament play. 

Thanks!

[DR4CO 6,234]

Based on current rules, I don't see why not. Provided the ships are correct, of course.

 

But a curve ball ruling saying otherwise after release is not out of the question.

[Olancho 0]

I am just coming up to speed with some of the rules and based on the FFG rules version 3.0.2 dated 3/27/15, it is ok to use multiple faction dials provided the pilot cards and ship tokens are the same faction.  Is this rule still valid?

[Parravon 5,217]

I am just coming up to speed with some of the rules and based on the FFG rules version 3.0.2 dated 3/27/15, it is ok to use multiple faction dials provided the pilot cards and ship tokens are the same faction.  Is this rule still valid?

You might want to update yourself a little. There's been 5 FAQs released since that one.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/f7/1d/f71df063-0528-4ae5-8fda-66a3b8d89a6c/x-wing_faq_v4.pdf

 

Mixing of dials no longer matters, as long as they match the ship type and the ship token matches the ship's pilot card. A Scum Z-95 model and dial can be used as a Rebel Z-95.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Parravon

[StevenO 2,996]

This is a great example of a threat NOT to resurrect.  A hot button topic at the time where an initial opinion turned out to NOT be the way thing eventually turned out working.