Scum Dials Answer??

[Parravon 5,217]

As has been stated previously, in a casual game no one gives a monkey's if you use whatever you've got, but in a tournament setting it's not unreasonable to require the correct components. A game ship consists of four components. Why is it so hard to ask for them to be the right components? 

 

It may be designed to generate profits, but would you rather have FFG make silly rules that potentially cripple them financially? And force possible abandonment of product lines? I think FFG have been really accommodating by including extra dials in the Most Wanted pack. They could've just made a repack of the HWK and Firespray with the S&V cards and forced everyone to buy another expansion, but they've figured that gamers would rather use existing models and have catered for that nicely.

 

I don't think it's a huge price to pay to get the right components, and if I've gone to the effort to do it, I'd expect my opponent to do the same. I've seen too many games over the years where proxy models or components have really made the games suffer.

[Rapture 499]

As has been stated previously, in a casual game no one gives a monkey's if you use whatever you've got, but in a tournament setting it's not unreasonable to require the correct components. A game ship consists of four components. Why is it so hard to ask for them to be the right components? 

 

It may be designed to generate profits, but would you rather have FFG make silly rules that potentially cripple them financially? And force possible abandonment of product lines? I think FFG have been really accommodating by including extra dials in the Most Wanted pack. They could've just made a repack of the HWK and Firespray with the S&V cards and forced everyone to buy another expansion, but they've figured that gamers would rather use existing models and have catered for that nicely.

 

I don't think it's a huge price to pay to get the right components, and if I've gone to the effort to do it, I'd expect my opponent to do the same. I've seen too many games over the years where proxy models or components have really made the games suffer.

 

First, hiding behind the "well, in a casual game..." has to stop. What is the difference between a 'casual' game and a formal (?) game that justifies us no longer being rational about the rules? "You have to be wearing green pants to use the Predator upgrade card, but only if it is not a casual game." Is it automatically acceptable because we apply a different label in an attempt to characterize the game? I don't think that it should be. A bad rule is a bad rule.

 

"...but would you rather have FFG make silly rules that potentially cripple them financially?"

What are you talking about? When did they do that? Why would they do that? What does that have to do with what we are talking about? A company choosing not to make one bad rule does not mean that they automatically make a decision in the opposite direction that is equally irrational.

 

"...if I've gone to the effort to do it, I'd expect my opponent to do the same."

The fact that you are willing to drink the Kool-aid rather than questioning an arbitrary rule and seeking to change is hands down the most awful reason to hold other people to that arbitrary rule that I have ever heard suggested.

 

With regard to them being the "right" components, people are really more concerned about what makes them the wrong component. A dial where the lines on the face are a different color has only the most minor aesthetic difference and have no impact on the actual game whatsoever.

 

"I've seen too many games over the years where proxy models or components have really made the games suffer."

What does that have to do with this? Are you suggesting that the game would suffer if people used dials that are a different color? Are you aware that the rules currently allow this?

 

Think of it like this:

Someone can, with the right shade of marker, take a rebel Z-95 dial and color it to look identical to a Scum Z-95 dial. Those two dials are now identical. Both are the same color, have the same maneuvers, and are both legal as per the rules. However, one can be use with a Rebel Z-95 while the other cannot.

 

There is no meaningful difference between the dials. The rule is arbitrary from the consumer's perspective. Arbitrary is bad.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rapture

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

There is no meaningful difference between the dials. The rule is arbitrary from the consumer's perspective. Arbitrary is bad.

 

"Arbitrary."  You keep using this word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

You may think the potential for confusion isn't enough to warrant the dial separation.  Others disagree.  But declaring something "arbitrary" goes to the motive of FFG, which I'm pretty sure you can't speak to.  It certainly does make for a scary word to slap on something you don't like though, doesn't it?

[VanorDM 11,599]

What is the difference between a 'casual' game and a formal (?) game that justifies us no longer being rational about the rules?

I agree, but it's not us who's being unrational. You're expecting them to let you use the wrong components for something, just because it happens to work the same.

There's not one single reason behind the rule, but rather a number of them, all of which make sense.

The only reason anyone has for not following the rule, is because they don't want have to buy more ships.

[Rapture 499]

I don't think that people actually believe that it will cause confusion. I think that they, fir whatever reason, choose their side first and then started building a justification as opposed to the other way around. The idea of anyone bring able to keep track of which half of their identical set of circles on a table belongs to them but somehow falling apart when one if the circles is a different color is laughable.

Not to mention the fact that it is a non-issue as simply keeping the dial next to its ship makes everything float on seamlessly. Also, the fact that the rules allow us to mark dials means that such mind numbing confusion can occur anyway.

Totally unrelated, but since you brought it up, people "slap on" things that they don't like all the time. Traffic, littering, pedophiles, and arbitrary rules all deserve to be "slapped on," and I don't think that makes the world scary in any way.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It certainly does make for a scary word to slap on something you don't like though, doesn't it?

I have noticed that some people, who don't really seem to understand the term like to use it with some sort of built in negative connotation. That somehow an arbitrary decision is inherently bad somehow. Which is not true.

It's not even applicable in this case, because FFG has reasons for making the ruling they did. The fact that someone doesn't agree with them doesn't negate them.

[Rapture 499]

 

There's not one single reason behind the rule, but rather a number of them, all of which make sense.

 

 

Then list them.

 

 

 

It certainly does make for a scary word to slap on something you don't like though, doesn't it?

I have noticed that some people, who don't really seem to understand the term like to use it with some sort of built in negative connotation. That somehow an arbitrary decision is inherently bad somehow. Which is not true.

It's not even applicable in this case, because FFG has reasons for making the ruling they did. The fact that someone doesn't agree with them doesn't negate them.

 

 

Let me be clear - the reason is either arbitrary or unacceptable.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Rapture

[VanorDM 11,599]

Let me be clear - the reason is either arbitrary or unacceptable.

Then there's no reason to list them, or discuss this with you since you won't accept any reason given.

[Buhallin 4,563]

I don't think that people actually believe that it will cause confusion. I think that they, fir whatever reason, choose their side first and then started building a justification as opposed to the other way around. The idea of anyone bring able to keep track of which half of their identical set of circles on a table belongs to them but somehow falling apart when one if the circles is a different color is laughable.

 

Do I think it's going to fall apart?  No.  But as someone who runs events, I prefer to avoid even the possibility of confusion.  X-wing is based heavily around secret information.  If that information is revealed - because I'm playing Scum and you're Rebel and I grab your Scum dial thinking it's mine - it's impossible to undo.  If someone gets their dials flipped by accident - because he always used the Scum one for the Tala and the Rebel one for Cracken, but reversed that - it's going to cause a hassle, because he ALWAYS did them in that pairing, and he should be allowed to do them with the right matchup even though they're by the wrong ships.  Or his opponent is going to use Intel Agent and look at the wrong one, for the same reason.

 

Do I think that's going to happen every game?  No.  Do I think it's even going to happen often?  No.  I suspect it will actually be very rare - but it IS possible.  And it only takes one time in an event with 20 people for it to cause a lot of heartburn.

 

Whether you like it or not, it's my responsibility as a TO to avoid that heartburn.  I really, truly couldn't care less how likely you think it is - you're looking at the probability as a way to save some cash, I'm looking at it as a risk management issue.  Do I believe it WILL cause an issue?  Not really.  Do I believe it MAY cause an issue?  Certainly I do, and that's enough justification for me.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Do I believe it MAY cause an issue?  Certainly I do, and that's enough justification for me.

And as a TO, that's your call and your call alone. Why FFG said it, or what people think of the reasons why doesn't matter in the least.

TO has the final decision here either way, if you don't like it that's your problem.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

Do I believe it MAY cause an issue?  Certainly I do, and that's enough justification for me.

And as a TO, that's your call and your call alone. Why FFG said it, or what people think of the reasons why doesn't matter in the least.

TO has the final decision here either way, if you don't like it that's your problem.

 

Well, the obvious corollary there is that my reason would be good enough for FFG too

 

There are a great many rules in any game which are aimed at preventing confusion, or least-common-denominator rules that other people will think are stupid because they're aimed at situations which could never possibly happen.  This is simply one of those.

[VanorDM 11,599]

This is simply one of those.

Even if the only reason was the bottom line, it is not an arbitrary reason, it is in fact a completely justified reason. The fact that some random person on a message board doesn't agree, doesn't change anything either.

[WWHSD 9,273]

It is an arbitrary rule designed to pursue profits. That is fine, but the fact that you are surprised that people don't want the game that they invested in to institute arbitrary rules is a little bit surprising.

I don't see how this is any different than the arbitrary rule designed to pursue profits that requires you to have one copy of an upgrade card for each instance of it in your list.

I'm not a fan of the ruling and was rather disappointed in it but it's FFG's game and they set the rules for what is permited in sanctioned competitve play.

[dantop83 100]

Well like I said before, I was asking if there was any indication of a ruling. I think the ruling not yet in writing is silly considering they are selling me two z95s that only work for scum.

And in the same package are giving me 2 YWing dials to at least make use of a rebel ywing I already had among the firespray and hwk of course.

So all game rules aside I would have liked the ship to NOT be a z95 headhunter at all since it gives the owners of rebel z95s zero versatility in using existing ships for scum. The intention of Most Wanted is to give the existing ships use as evident by the reusing of several of the ships I have already and supplementing with extras (like the one ywing model with 2 dials) so why isn't there at least a third z95 dial or at least my ability to use dials from any faction? That is what seemed weird to me.

I understand they want to make that extra money, BUT then why have most wanted be the way it is in the first place? Just sell mini packs without models or something along those lines. Either way like it has been stated, this technically isn't rules related anymore or never really was and there isn't any concrete rule on this yet anyway. Until most wanted is closer and the FAQs and rules are updated this is at best now reduced to speculation and my apparent complaining which doesn't seem to be appriciated by the heavy posters of this forum.

So in closing yes, you all win and I concede to everything must match and I will still buy it all, because I was going to anyway and then be sad at the 8 headhunter swarm that I can't fly competitively and never probably would have anyway. I am too busy staring at my shiny Decimators and Outriders to think about scum dials anymore! Now I need to get back on my high horse and get out of here to debate the Wellington square strategy!

[DoctorMikeReddy 12]

We debated this issue over the last couple of days on the UK/IRL FB group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/xwingukirl/permalink/647448428701234/

I'm going to have a look at what you get in MW, what you then 'need' to get to maximise usage, and whether making dials faction specific would actually harm sales, rather than reluctantly increase them. I suspect that same ship types not being interchangeable (with the correct ship token and pilot card, of course) on the basis of identical but differently coloured dials will impede purchasing decisions. This is only likely to change (and again with some bad feeling from the community) if the meta develops (or 'encouraged') towards Scum lists on the basis of tactical advantage of Scum only upgrades. I certainly cannot afford to buy Zs that are faction specific and FFG have lost an opportunity to promote good will by allowing ship reuse, which is NOT incompatible with distinct factions.

 

DoctorMike

[DoctorMikeReddy 12]

Here are some more discussions that show the negative purchasing effect:

http://www.reddit.com/r/XWingTMG/comments/2ihsbg/the_most_wanted_box_does_not_give_you_ships_for/?sort=old

[LordTaos 28]

That's awful. I was planning on buying the Most Wanted, to get two different Z's for my son to use and also for the new cards. Now that he can't use them with his Rebel fighters, I am rethinking the purchase. He loves to run a Z swarm and now he has no way of doing that with the Scum faction.

 

I can understand the ruling to prevent confusion, fine. However, they should have an alternate method of obtaining spare parts. 

Edited November 16, 2014 by LordTaos

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

That's awful. I was planning on buying the Most Wanted, to get two different Z's for my son to use and also for the new cards. Now that he can't use them with his Rebel fighters, I am rethinking the purchase. He loves to run a Z swarm and now he has no way of doing that with the Scum faction.

 

I can understand the ruling to prevent confusion, fine. However, they should have an alternate method of obtaining spare parts.

The ruling really only applies to FFG tournaments and those who choose to follow the same rules. If you and your son (and others he plays with) want to go ahead and use the mis-matched dials go ahead. Just be aware that you may have issues if you ever want to go to a tournament.

[godofcheese 456]

I bet FFG, upon reading this thread will be disappointed that they have tried to help the community by providing a Most Wanted pack as a pseudo starter.

If they simply repackaged the Z-95, Y-Ying, Firespray and Hawk with different paint jobs, as single ships with Scum parts, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would instead be saying "I wish we had a starter type set that contained more dials than ships, so we could use some of our existing ships.

Other choice could have been to just provide 1 z-95 in the pack, which would have made them more profit, and New players/ those wanting to play scum and don't have z-95s would be more out of pocket.

[DoctorMikeReddy 12]

There are alternatives to the two cases you suggest, godofcheese:

1) not require scum specific dials for 'shared' cross-faction ships; saves money because scum dials aren't necessary.

2) put enough scum dials in MW to cover the max amount of ship types - 2 for Firespray, etc - to allow faction specific dials in tournaments; more expensive and for some unnecessary, as they wouldn't want 8 Scum Zs.

3) sell Scum upgrade packs; more expensive for players, but only those committed to Scum, but less costly than buying ships already owned.

4) include multiple dials in shared ship expansions; only works for future releases, unless combined with (3), but bumps up the expansion cost, while providing players with a lot of choice.

Clearly, this is the first time ships have gone cross-faction, but I know many want a Rebel refit for the shuttle, which is canon. FFG have a chance to reverse this decision or make it seem less "money hat" as it is definitely risking take up of Scum & Villainy in its current form

DoctorMike

[DagobahDave 1,621]

Unless Most Wanted includes extra copies of ship base tokens and ship cards, you'll have to proxy them in addition to using the off-faction dials. How you resolve this in casual play is your business, but I think if you're going to do that you should should allow proxies of everything, including C-3PO and whatever else might be problematic for some players to acquire. Where do you draw the line with that? Can you proxy a whole ship type you don't own (using a Firespray model, cards and all to stand in for a Falcon)?

For game night at the store, I wouldn't want to see proxies (which I think applies to off-faction dials, since you are using them in place of the matching dial, even if it's just an aesthetic difference). If I had those things to loan out, I'd be happy to. But as irrational as it is, proxies are a distraction for me even in the most casual settings and I would prefer to avoid them.

Edited November 16, 2014 by DagobahDave

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Unless Most Wanted includes extra copies of ship base tokens and ship cards, you'll have to proxy them in addition to using the off-faction dials.

I have seen this argument in this debate a lot, and it isn't true. Most wanted comes with 3 base inserts, 6 pilot cards (I think 6) and 2 ships and dials. Likewise, there are enough inserts and pilot cards for 3 y-wings but only 2 dials. I have no problem at all with FFGs decision, it just makes sense to differentiate the ships as much as possible, so I really wish the people defending it would stop using this obviously untrue argument.

[DagobahDave 1,621]

Looking at the card spread for Most Wanted, which isn't necessarily complete, I see two copies of Binayre. So unless cards are missing from that spread, in order to run more than two of those, you'll need to proxy some cards. If you have have a better source that confirms that there are more copies of that card, then of course I'll stand corrected.

But if there are not additional copies of that card, it's possible that there also won't be enough matching ship base tokens, requiring you to proxy.

Again, assuming there are no additional cards beyond what's shown in the spread, of course it's possible to run a different combination of Scum Z-95s from Most Wanted if you have enough Rebel Z-95 models. But your full squad-building options would still be limited by the cards, and possibly the ship base tokens, unless you proxied. To run three Binayres, you'd need another copy of Most Wanted, and with it comes all the matching dials you need.

My point is that (as far as I know) the dials are not the only things that are missing from Most Wanted if you're unhappy about the component restrictions.

Sorry to get so pedantic, but I don't want to be misunderstood.

Edited November 16, 2014 by DagobahDave

[StevenO 2,996]

Unless Most Wanted includes extra copies of ship base tokens and ship cards, you'll have to proxy them in addition to using the off-faction dials. How you resolve this in casual play is your business, but I think if you're going to do that you should should allow proxies of everything, including C-3PO and whatever else might be problematic for some players to acquire. Where do you draw the line with that? Can you proxy a whole ship type you don't own (using a Firespray model, cards and all to stand in for a Falcon)?

 

Not true.

 

Ok, partly true but that's only if you are going to be running the same ship throughout.  Let's not forget that all ships have "extra" base tokens and pilot cards which normally sit to the side while you are using something else.  Your Rebel Z-95 includes two double sided base tokens so using a Scum Z-95 base and ship alongside the Rebel one should be fine EXCEPT for this stupid dial issue.

 

In my mind dials should have no trouble going with their models.  It makes complete sense to me in that you need an official model and every model should have its own dial.

[DagobahDave 1,621]

I started off with the word "unless" because it's not clear exactly what's included with Most Wanted. It doesn't look like we'll have enough ship cards and ship base tokens to run (let's say) four Binayre Pirates. Based on what we can see of the card spread, I'm guessing that we'll see Z-95 ship base tokens in these combinations:

 

Named Z-95 #1 / Binayre

Named Z-95 #2 / Black Sun Soldier

Black Sun Soldier / Binayre Pirate

 

If that's the case, if you wanted to run 3 Binayre Pirates, you'd have to proxy a ship card only (along with the off-faction dial). If you wanted 4 Binayre Pirates, you'd have to proxy 2 ship cards and 1 ship token (and 2 off-faction dials).

 

So I think what I said was true -- based on what has been revealed about Most Wanted so far. I think the message from FFG is clear in that if you are serious about playing Scum and you want broad options for squad-building, you'll be getting at least two of these sets, because dials are only part of what you're going to need to do that without proxying. And for FFG, that's business as usual. They're not jerking us around over this any more or less than they have about other highly desirable components.

Edited November 16, 2014 by DagobahDave