Scum Dials Answer??

[Parravon 5,217]

We've got a group here that play Warmachine that like to run tournaments from time to time, and they find it perfectly all right to proxy models with a bare empty base. I find this practice to be beyond ridiculous. I pointed out that you should at least have a model and not just a bare base. The argument that came back was "well, some people can't afford to buy every model they need for a game". To which I said, "then clearly you're in the wrong hobby."

It went rapidly downhill from there. These guys claimed to be wargamers until I said "if you're not playing with a model and just using the base, you're not wargaming, you're playing checkers!"

 

We had a gaming convention here last year, and I must admit I was disappointed to see the number of unpainted 40K armies that were used. The guys that had put in the effort to paint their armies, had some phenomenal looking armies, but it still didn't balance out the slackers. I've never been keen to use troops or models unless they were painted, but it seems that simple standard isn't as important to some.

[VanorDM 11,599]

I just think this could be something where a unified voice could make a difference.

If you want to discuss this, then take it to the general forms. This kind of debate has no place on the rules forms.

But if you think FFG is going to take a hit to their bottom line just because we all ask them to...

[Buhallin 4,563]

VandorDM, why are you so combative/condescending against every point I am trying to make on this?

 

Yes every opposing player can be an A-Hole and force me to use cardboard tokens and range rulers, and so could the TO. BUT that’s not FFG. FFG has allowed it knowing the players WANT them at the discretion of A-Hole Players and TOs that are trolls.

 

Well, it's a good thing you're not being combative or condescending.  I mean, since anyone who disagrees with what you want to use is a A-hole player or troll TO (although I'm curious whether you can have A-hole TOs or troll players?) you're obviously solidly holding the high ground.

 

 

Does anyone feel like this ruling absolutely needs to be this way and actually prefers it??

Yes, I actually do think it needs to be this way, and prefer it.  I've explained why for my part repeatedly.  If the best argument you've got for changing it is "Anyone who doesn't let me is an A-hole" I think we're done here.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Yes, I actually do think it needs to be this way, and prefer it.

I mostly agree. I have no issue with a few proxies here and there in a friendly game. If someone sat next to me at the LGS and used S&V dials for their rebel list, I doubt I'd say much.

But that's not the same thing as doing it at Worlds or something.

[Parravon 5,217]

OK, so before that is in print we can all make the case that the decision is silly and explain why. 

 

Does anyone feel like this ruling absolutely needs to be this way and actually prefers it?? I am heading to Worlds tomorrow and if I happen to get anyone ear that matters I will definitely be mentioning this point. I was just hoping I won’t be the only one…This isn't just one guy complaining. I want to get people to have a voice on this subject since it isn't as cut and dry as "correct components", because I will argue I DO have a Headhunter maneuver dial that functions identical to the other one. I just think this could be something where a unified voice could make a difference.

The ruling makes perfect business sense and perfect gaming sense. And please be aware you don't speak for the wider community, just yourself and maybe your local group. But, by all means, find someone who will listen and ask them.

[Marinealver 8,073]

Almost afraid to jump in here, but for my group casual play is up to the people playing or in some cases the host.  I've seen a variety.  At some homes the host (or home group) plays differently or allows thing we otherwise might not.  We could choose not to play.  I know one group what won't let you play unless you paint your miniatures, one guy tried a spray can but they still said nope.

 

If is isn't official then it's up to the group or host.

 

It is, after all, a game.  Not a life defining moment, well for most of us anyway.

 

Play casual, no worries...

 

[Edit] P.S. I don't have enough Engine Upgrades so unless I can find someone generous enough I tend to proxy.  Don't shoot me for it 

It is official that for "officially sanctioned" tournaments you must have the dials faction matching the ships faction.

 

Some people here just believe that every game should be played in a "competitive" manner strictly adhering to "competitive" rules even for introductory games for teaching new players or showing potential players the format of the game.

 

Now that is all fine and dandy however table top miniatures require at a minimum of 2 players thus making it more of a social interaction instead of just playing a game on a computer which randomly throws you with other players where you don't have to be social at all. So if you want to keep playing this game you need to make it available to other people and when they start their skill set will not be as high as others.

 

FFG does the right thing making a competitive rule set for those that want to play competitively while keeping it SEPARATE from the core rule set. It lowers the bar of entry so new players and potential players can get a feel for the format for the game before they decide to make the leap into competitive play. 

 

Making dial faction count for official competitive events is a good ruling and also helps secures business revenue as there will always be enough competitive players that will purchase the exact amount of products in order to fill the competitive requirements to compete. There will also be collectors who may not even play the other faction but just get the pack to complete their collection, so the business is not threaten in any way.

 

Now as for casual games say with a friend who is borrowing your models because he/she doesn't have a set I don't see a problem letting him play with say 2 S&V dials and 2 rebel dials to run a 4 Headhunter rebel squad why you play Imperials in your own home. For one the game is for fun and there is nothing at stake here, and you are sharing the experience of a wonderful hobby with your friends. If anything it would be ridiculous to consider having a FFG sanction TO come to your house just to tell you and your friends what is legal or not.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Marinealver

[DR4CO 6,234]

FFG does the right thing making a competitive rule set for those that want to play competitively while keeping it SEPARATE from the core rule set. It lowers the bar of entry so new players and potential players can get a feel for the format for the game before they decide to make the leap into competitive play.

 

... at which point they are thoroughly confused as to why they keep being told they are doing almost everything wrong at the tournament, when the rulebook has told them they're doing everything just fine.

 

Having different rulesets for casual and competitive was a monumentally stupid idea on FFG's part. I would sacrifice half my collection if it meant they would pick one of them and stick with it.

[godofcheese 456]

 

FFG does the right thing making a competitive rule set for those that want to play competitively while keeping it SEPARATE from the core rule set. It lowers the bar of entry so new players and potential players can get a feel for the format for the game before they decide to make the leap into competitive play.

 

... at which point they are thoroughly confused as to why they keep being told they are doing almost everything wrong at the tournament, when the rulebook has told them they're doing everything just fine.

 

Having different rulesets for casual and competitive was a monumentally stupid idea on FFG's part. I would sacrifice half my collection if it meant they would pick one of them and stick with it.

 

 

While I don't feel quite that strongly about it, I do agree with you.

 

It's also why, when teaching new players, I always teach based on the competitive rules straight off the bat. It's not like they're harder to learn or more confusing (most people I've taught actually say they are less so), they are just slightly less forgiving in some situations, but you don't notice if you learn that way first.

[Parravon 5,217]

I've never really looked at them as two separate rule sets. The Competitive Play rules merely tighten up some aspects of the game to a more defined degree. 

[stmack 467]

 But I know I would draw the line if someone showed up with a dial with a fully painted face. How do I know what's underneath? Is it the correct dial? And why did the idiot feel the need to paint the whole face anyway? What's he trying to hide? Just sounds like something dubious going on there. 

 

You know you can swap faces on the dials so that you can never really be sure they're using the right movement set underneath right? If someone really wanted to cheat in that sense they don't have to go to the length of painting the face.

 

That said, myself if I was playing a tournament against an opponent using the wrong faction dials I'd have zero issue with it in the very least up to the Regionals level. If you're playing in a Nationals or World tournament you're probably going to be committed enough to have a full set for your faction anyway (or be able to borrow some) so it's less of an issue. For events like Store Championships though I'd much rather have a greater turnout with people being able to fly the most competitive squads they can rather than a smaller group or people being forced to fly lesser quality builds because they're missing a dial or two.

Edited November 5, 2014 by stmack

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

You know you can swap faces on the dials so that you can never really be sure they're using the right movement set underneath right? If someone really wanted to cheat in that sense they don't have to go to the length of painting the face.

 

You can do this, but it's a monumentally stupid way to cheat.  It's an always-on cheat, and it's also impossible to deny when you get caught.

 

If you paint your dials though, it's far easier to "accidentally" get the wrong dial with the wrong ship when you need that wrong maneuver, and if your opponent notices then of course you just mixed them up.

 

Likely?  Probably not, but possible...  which is why they put the ship names on the dial in the first place.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

Now as for casual games say with a friend who is borrowing your models because he/she doesn't have a set I don't see a problem letting him play with say 2 S&V dials and 2 rebel dials to run a 4 Headhunter rebel squad why you play Imperials in your own home. For one the game is for fun and there is nothing at stake here, and you are sharing the experience of a wonderful hobby with your friends. If anything it would be ridiculous to consider having a FFG sanction TO come to your house just to tell you and your friends what is legal or not.

 

This isn't a straw man - it's more of straw-Godzilla.

 

Nobody is suggesting that you can't play however you want in your own home.  You and your buddy want to mix dials?  To quote the movie, "Everything is awesome!"  Want to resolve hits via competitive "pew pew" and "whoosh" sounds?  That's truly great, really, please post it to YouTube.

 

The point people are trying to make here is that deviating from the baseline game - which requires all the proper components - depends on the consent of both players.  You do not have a right to resolve your attacks with competitive pew pew sounds if your opponent does not agree, and you do not have a right to use incorrect dials if your opponent does not agree.

 

I'm absolutely baffled at the number of people who are adamant about throwing out courtesy to your opponent over the idea of saving a few bucks to fly what is honestly a pretty dumb build anyway.

[Ken at Sunrise 2,065]

That group that insist the miniatures are painted are a bit extreme, aren't they? Is that for X-Wing or miniatures for other games? I mean, X-Wing minis are already painted.

Not X-Wing but pretty much any miniature game.  40k, 40k Epic (which some of us felt painting was cool but not required), Johnny Reb, etc...

 

The comment was 'if you can't paint your figures you may as well play with counters/chits'.

 

No room for in between but as I said it was their place (a LGS), it was their call.  At my place we're a little more understanding/forgiving.

[VanorDM 11,599]

You can do this, but it's a monumentally stupid way to cheat.

Plus, IIRC isn't there a code for each ship printed on the back of a dial, like TF, TI, XW, ect...? I never remember to check my own dials but I thought there was something there.

 

If you paint your dials though

 

If I were a TO, I'd be much more concerned about someone who painted the face of their dial, and much more likely to notice it, then someone using the wrong faction dial.

Someone painting their dial makes it look like they're trying to hide something.

 

saving a few bucks to fly what is honestly a pretty dumb build anyway.

I agree, it is odd. I think it's more the idea that people are told they can't do something then them actually wanting to do it that's the issue here.

First off, it's only going to be some events that will enforce the rule, and it will have next to no impact on friendly games.

Second, how many Z-95's do people use in those kind of events? I mean I own 6 of them, but I'm also a collector, so I bought 6 because I like having enough for lists I might run. But short of a Z-95 w/Missile swarm, you honestly need at most 1 or 2 of them.

Anything more than 2 and you are most likely looking at a list that could either be better with other ships, or at least one that could use other ships without hurting it.

[StevenO 2,996]

 

So FFG is selling me two headhunters that can ONLY be used for scum and a Y Wing that can ONLY be used for Scum?

No. You can use those Z's and Y's with Rebel lists, or Rebel ships with S&V lists, as long as you have enough dials. Hell they even include an extra Y-Wing dial so you can use a rebel Y-Wing model with your S&V lists.

 

 

Considering you have to purchase one Rebel Y-Wing or Z-95 in order to get a "Rebel" maneuver dial  for that type of ship that DOES mean the ships in Most Wanted are effectively "Scum Only" except when you decide to use one of them instead of repainting a Rebel Ship.  Considering that the Scum Z and Y are effectively Scum Only FFG could easily have just used a different model and probably should have to keep all of this discussion from ever being an issue.

 

 

I'll admit I haven't gone through the rules lately but when this question first came up I could find TWO things in the rules which really pointed to dial "factions" being unimportant.  One was a rule that if you assigned an "incorrect" dial to a ship, here we're looking at faction instead of ship type, you'd perform the shown maneuver if it would be legal for the ship or your opponent would get to choose a maneuver that was legal for the ship if an illegal maneuver was shown.  The second was a statement allowing you to mark up a ship's maneuver dial provided its function, which I'd say is to simply show what maneuver is planned for the ship, is on compromised.

 

With those two tournament rules I really don't see why FFG would FORCE dials when base plates and pilot card are already plenty restrictive when it comes to using ships.

[VanorDM 11,599]

With those two tournament rules I really don't see why FFG would FORCE dials when base plates and pilot card are already plenty restrictive when it comes to using ships.

The reasons why have been listed a number of times in various threads.

It looks better, when all the components match.

It's less confusing.

It improves the bottom line.

So there's plenty of reasons why FFG wants you to use the correct faction dial.

but when this question first came up I could find TWO things in the rules which really pointed to dial "factions" being unimportant.

Neither of those things changes the ruling that FFG made. If you want to argue the point, you could try emailing Frank... But since the rules are whatever FFG says they are, pointing at those two things won't help your case really. Especially when at least part of the decision on FFG's part is due to the bottom line.

[godofcheese 456]

In a tournament, If you and I are both playing Rebel, we are both aware that our dials match.

 

If you are playing Scum and I am playing Rebel our dials are different.

 

If you are playing Scum with a single rebel Y-Wing dial for the Y-Wing, and I am fielding Dutch in my Rebel list.

 

Scenario 3 can cause confusion and errors and this is what FFG is making sure they are avoiding.

 

I like the rule and don't have an issue with it.

[WWHSD 9,273]

Something I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that FFG is future-proofing to some extent with this ruling. So far the Scum dials match the Rebel dials (I don't remember seeing anything that said that the Firespray or HWK dial matches) but this may not always be the case. By ruling that the faction on the dial must match the faction being played, FFG prevents a situation where some dials are okay to use cross faction but others are not.

[Rapture 499]

 

With those two tournament rules I really don't see why FFG would FORCE dials when base plates and pilot card are already plenty restrictive when it comes to using ships.

It's less confusing.

 

Just out of curiosity, how is it less confusing?

 

Dials in this game are very, very simple. The one next to the ship controls the ship. No room for arguments and no room for error outside of placing a dial at the exact midpoint of two of the same ships (but can't that happen with a dial regardless of what color it is?). Who would honestly be confused? Wouldn't such a dim-witted person be generally confused throughout the entire game anyway?

[Hatemonger 180]

 

 

With those two tournament rules I really don't see why FFG would FORCE dials when base plates and pilot card are already plenty restrictive when it comes to using ships.

It's less confusing.

 

Just out of curiosity, how is it less confusing?

 

Dials in this game are very, very simple. The one next to the ship controls the ship. No room for arguments and no room for error outside of placing a dial at the exact midpoint of two of the same ships (but can't that happen with a dial regardless of what color it is?). Who would honestly be confused? Wouldn't such a dim-witted person be generally confused throughout the entire game anyway?

 

I guess the idea is that if player A has a whole table full of Rebel dials, and Player B has a table full of Scum dials except for one, you might mix that one up?

 

I mean, I see how there is some potential for confusion, but I don't agree that it is somehow vastly more confusing than player B playing a whole other Rebel squad full of Rebel dials, or even more so, playing a Scum squad with some Scum paint jobs and some Rebel ones (which IS explicitly allowed by the rules).

 

- H8

[Rapture 499]

Maybe that is what they are thinking off. I am assuming that there is more to it than that if people think that it will cause a legitimate problem.

 

 

In a tournament, If you and I are both playing Rebel, we are both aware that our dials match.

 

If you are playing Scum and I am playing Rebel our dials are different.

 

If you are playing Scum with a single rebel Y-Wing dial for the Y-Wing, and I am fielding Dutch in my Rebel list.

 

Scenario 3 can cause confusion and errors and this is what FFG is making sure they are avoiding.

 

I like the rule and don't have an issue with it.

 

What if we are both playing Dutch with the regular red dial - it would be the same problem. Like you said, "we are both aware that our dials match," so wouldn't that also be the solution to our matching dials in any other situation? How is there a greater potential for confusion? Players have never really had any trouble keeping track of which dial belongs to which ship. Players will be aware of the matching dial and keep track of it (which they already have to do anyway).

Edited November 8, 2014 by Rapture

[DR4CO 6,234]

Maybe that is what they are thinking off. I am assuming that there is more to it than that if people think that it will cause a legitimate problem.

 

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I think, but FFG could also be future-proofing themselves. The Z-95 and Y-wing dials might match, but a future multi-faction ship might not. This way they don't have to worry about it ever being an issue.

[Parravon 5,217]

I thought it was pretty simple. If you want to fly a particular ship, you've got to have the correct components.

[TezzasGames 1,014]

I thought it was pretty simple. If you want to fly a particular ship, you've got to have the correct components.

Sadly, for some people, it's never that simple.

[Rapture 499]

 

Maybe that is what they are thinking off. I am assuming that there is more to it than that if people think that it will cause a legitimate problem.

 

It was mentioned earlier in the thread, I think, but FFG could also be future-proofing themselves. The Z-95 and Y-wing dials might match, but a future multi-faction ship might not. This way they don't have to worry about it ever being an issue.

 

 

 

That might be an even bigger stretch than pretending that it will disrupt the game by causing confusion. First of all, there is no suggestion of alternate maneuvers on dials. Second, why would they not just say that you (obviously) can't cheat by using dials with different maneuvers? It would not need to actually be said as the IQ required to play this game is somewhere over a 50, but they are free to clarify if it ever became an issue (which it would not).

 

 

 

I thought it was pretty simple. If you want to fly a particular ship, you've got to have the correct components.

Sadly, for some people, it's never that simple.

 

 

The issue is that people don't see why they cannot use things that 1) they legitimately purchased as a benefit to the manufacturer of the game, 2) are identical in every way to the other piece except for a minor color change, and 3) will have no impact on the gameplay and no impact on aesthetics.

 

It is an arbitrary rule designed to pursue profits. That is fine, but the fact that you are surprised that people don't want the game that they invested in to institute arbitrary rules is a little bit surprising.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Rapture