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dantop83

Scum Dials Answer??

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Now that there has been a second exciting update for Most Wanted I am very curious if anyone has seen any official ruling on Manuever dials?

 

It is very clear that the Ywing, Firespray, HWK, and Headhunter dials will remain unchanged from their Rebel or Imperial versions so my question is will I be able to use the Scum dials when I am using the ships as Rebel or Imperial??

 

This question arises, because i own 2 headhunters and would like to fly 3 or 4 in a rebel squad. After my Most Wanted purchase i will have the ships, but only 2 "Rebel" manuver dials. I wouldn't think there would be an issue with using 2 scum dials and 2 rebel dials, BUT Fantasy Flight sometimes makes odd ruling to encourgae additional purchases.

 

Has there been any official word on this subject? This would be the difference between me pre-ordering 2 Most Wanted expansions and/or buying another headhunter expansion now.

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Yes,

Frank said that you have to use the correct faction dial. So you can't use a Rebel HWK-290 dial with a S&V HWK.

That of course is only an issue for official events and the like really. I can't imagine anyone having an issue with it for friendly games.

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In official games you must have the ship and the faction of the dial to match the faction and ship of the pilot card and the pilot tile.

 

In casual games as long as you have dials that match your ship, and the faction of the pilot card matches the faction of the pilot tile then it is okay.

 

I can understand the reasoning for this ruling. Rebel players already get so much from the MW pack which is more than enough to justify them buying it even if they don't plan on playing S&V. What exactly do Imperial players get? A converson for the Firespray to cross over to the scum side :unsure:  (scum as in rebel scum ha ha :rolleyes:)

 

Okay they get an awesome title that allows Boba Fet to carry 2 bombs if he don't want torpedoes. Glory to the Galactic Imperium of Man :lol:  (oops I may have crossed over a little too close to another franchise :D)

Edited by Marinealver

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In casual games as long as you have dials that match your ship, and the faction of the pilot card matches the faction of the pilot tile then it is okay.

 

I don't think we should be making such blanket statements.

 

"In casual games as long as you have bases with a firing arc, it's OK if you don't have the ship."

"In casual games as long as you have a printout, it's OK if you don't have the cards."

"In casual games, Attack Wing bases are close enough, so it's OK if you've never bought X-wing at all."

 

What components are and aren't mandatory is a matter of personal preference.  Everyone will draw the line at some point.  If I buy a core set and a TIE fighter, use those bases for everything (with numbers, of course) and print cards to play with empty bases, is that fine?

 

There is a formal baseline for playing X-wing.  That's owning all the components you need to play, up to and including all the cards and the proper dials.  Replacing or omitting those components is perfectly allowable as a negotiated agreement between  players.

 

"You can do whatever you want in a casual game" is really not a true statement.  If you're going to use some shorted or replaced component of any kind, that needs to be in agreement with your opponent.

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Maybe I missed something on this but I have aways assumed "Casual Play" is short for saying whatever you and your opponent have mutually agreed to prior to starting a friendly game.

 

I have a friend that hate the dial system. Uses a card and marks his movement. Seen others use movement decks. Some people could have problems with it some not. But it is OK to say casual play IMO.

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but I have aways assumed "Casual Play" is short for saying whatever you and your opponent have mutually agreed to prior to starting a friendly game.

 

Good rule of thumb, though issues can accidentally crop up mid game that need dealt with in a fly casual manner as well.

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Maybe I missed something on this but I have aways assumed "Casual Play" is short for saying whatever you and your opponent have mutually agreed to prior to starting a friendly game.

That's one way of looking at it, perhaps even a good way. But it's also not the only way.

But I think Buhallin's issue, and the issue I know I have, is the assumption that anything goes in a casual game.

"You don't mind if I use this grape as a Tie fighter, with an interceptor base card, right? After all it's just a casual game"

People should not simply assume that the other guy will be ok with them using the wrong faction dial or many other things.

I know in example you list above, I wouldn't be ok with someone using something other than the dials, unless whatever it is worked the same basic way.

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People should not simply assume that the other guy will be ok with them using the wrong faction dial or many other things.

 

Almost this, although I think that the dial issue is actually taking it a step farther.  Or two steps farther, honestly.

 

A lot of people aren't happy about the dial ruling, which is fine, but they're pushing all the way to "If you don't let me use the wrong dial's you're a jerk."  The first step is I think what Vanor says - the assumption that everyone has to be OK with whatever I want to do because I invoke "casual!"  But this is worse.  It's not just "Assume I can use what I want", it's "Anyone who doesn't let me is a bad person."

 

If you're doing something nonstandard - and whether you agree with it or not, using Scum dials for Rebel ships is nonstandard - basic courtesy means you defer to your opponent's approval for that.  That's why I don't like the "It's fine in a casual game" framing that was coming out here.  "It's fine if your opponent is OK with it" is a far better way to put it.

 

To diverge briefly into the "Why", I think there are a lot of good reasons for it beyond FFG wanting to steal your lunch money.  I really do see a lot of potential for confusion - playing a mixed-dial list with either Scum or Rebels may very possibly get confusing.  I can also see potential problems coming from "Which ship gets the off dial?"  If you're using one Scum dial, and put it on Ship A for the entire game before switching it to Ship B, either intentionally or accidentally, there's serious potential for confusion there - both your own, and your opponent's (Intel Agent, etc).  Whether it's enough of a reason to require correct dials is going to be a personal evaluation, but I think the "Evil FFG!" drama is a bit misplaced.

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True I guess I think of "Casual Play" as what I do with guys I know. Have a friend who is tight on money. I let him proxy a ship so he could decide if he would make it his next purchase. (didn't have it to loan). But I wouldn't do that with guys I haven't played with much.

I guess my point is Casual is what your group makes it. I guess a better way to say it is "House Rules" that way you know it can vary House to House. Our number on House Rule is have fun. If a rule isn't working and you think something is better we try it. If it changes the balance then we go back. Though I can say outside of Proxy (Cards, Dials, occasional ship) we havn't messed with the rules in X-Wing. Though we are about to try the Star Destroyer Template someone made and see how it goes.

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It's not just "Assume I can use what I want", it's "Anyone who doesn't let me is a bad person."

Good point, and the same goes to Forgottenlore with what he said.

Myself I don't know if I'd have an issue with someone using the wrong dial, but I do completely understand why FFG said what they did.

I'll be honest, my comment above about people being fine with it, was mostly to head off yet another argument about FFG being greedy bastards.

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Why would I need a dial from the right faction? The only thing different about it is the color...I understand from a sales perspective, but it is a very shady ruling.

 

I understand no proxies, but you are allowed to use thrid party tokens and range rulers in "official play" AND paint your ships.

 

Can I not paint my dials??? I can mark my dials, that's in the rules.So what is to stop me from painting my dials a solid color covering everything except the manuver? Which is why I expected this ruling to go the other way.

 

So like I said, I understand the sales side of things, but this ruling seems insane and illogical.

 

Ready for the biggest argument? So FFG is selling me two headhunters that can ONLY be used for scum and a Y Wing that can ONLY be used for Scum? So it helps nothing that they have re-used old ships that I already have. They should have just given me dials like they are for the HWK and Firespray. I don't need more models of ships that I can't fly. They are litteraly missing the point of re-using existing ships. And now this leads to problem number two...they are giving ONE firespray and HWK dial so if I want to use more than one Scum of them I need to buy 2 Most Wnted packs!

 

I would be very disapointed in FFG if the dials aren't interchangable since the "Scum" part of them is just for show and doesn't affect the dials.

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In casual games as long as you have dials that match your ship, and the faction of the pilot card matches the faction of the pilot tile then it is okay.

 

I don't think we should be making such blanket statements.

 

"In casual games as long as you have bases with a firing arc, it's OK if you don't have the ship."

"In casual games as long as you have a printout, it's OK if you don't have the cards."

"In casual games, Attack Wing bases are close enough, so it's OK if you've never bought X-wing at all."

 

You are sort of misinterpreting what I said, almost to the point of putting words in my mouth.. First of all the tile (which has a firing arc) must match the pilot card. I used the words faction for ensuring that you don't get S&V Boba Fet base with an Imperial Boba Fet pilot card. Not saying that you could substitute every base as long as it has matching firing arcs. That's a little out of context.

 

Now, I sort of see where you are going with the other "blanket" statements. I understand it isn't that fair if someone works hard and purchases the necessary packs for the upgrades just to have someone with a computer print out all the upgrade cards or have someone that plays a completely different game also together just to mix and match. First of all the games are supposed to be different even if they have similar components and are not meant to be mixed from both a business standpoint and a gameplay standpoint. 

 

Now since you brought up the topic of "proxys" lets give them a look. (Might need another thread for this one.) For me I don't play with proximity cards or models. I don't like the feel of it it is sort of like playing on Vassel (no offense to the many players who played on vassel and have participated in the well renowned Team Covenant X-wing tournament, my apologies that vassel is not really my thing). Now there is a legitimate reason for proximity cards as in to not get them messed up (mainly for TCG), and I have seen many games and competitive formats that have strict rules on proximity cards such as before your list/deck is submitted you must prove that you have the actual card being proxied, but they don't ban it all together. Now I can see why proxy models are banned but to continue on this subject that is another post. 

 

Back on the original topic. It is true for the ships that are crossing the factions that the maneuver on the dials are the same regardless of the ship. However one must point out that while the ships are the same the pilots are "NOT" the same and that is to include Boba Fet from his Imperial and S&V personas. Treat them as different pilots. Now we all know the rules from squad building is that all pilot cards must match the ship model with tiles and that all pilots in the squadron (as of now) must all be from the same faction. Every ship model must have a maneuver dial that matches the ship, and for competitive play the dial's faction must match the ship faction. So to break it down.

 

Both competitive and casual

  • Pilot cards must have matching tile (in both ship and faction).
  • Tile must be with corresponding ship model (no X-wing pilot Wedge in an E-wing).
  • Model must have maneuver dial that corresponds with ship type. (B-wing dial for B-wing ship ect.)
  • All pilots must be from the same faction. (Cannot place Scum Fet with Imperial Squadron)

For competitive play

  • Maneuver dial must also match the pilot's faction. (Cannot have 2 rebel and 2 S&V dials in a 4 Z-95 headhunter Rebel squadron)
Edited by Marinealver

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They should have just given me dials like they are for the HWK and Firespray. I don't need more models of ships that I can't fly. They are litteraly missing the point of re-using existing ships. And now this leads to problem number two...they are giving ONE firespray and HWK dial so if I want to use more than one Scum of them I need to buy 2 Most Wnted packs!

 

Nothing personal to you, dantop83, I'm just using your quote as a reference for my post.

 

"I want an oompa loompah, daddy, and I want it now!"

 

There's so much Veruca Salt on these forums about what FFG SHOULD be giving people. 

FFG don't have to give anyone anything. 

If you're not happy with what FFG are giving, then quit the game and send them a meesage that they won't be getting your money.

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You are sort of misinterpreting what I said, almost to the point of putting words in my mouth.. First of all the tile (which has a firing arc) must match the pilot card. I used the words faction for ensuring that you don't get S&V Boba Fet base with an Imperial Boba Fet pilot card. Not saying that you could substitute every base as long as it has matching firing arcs. That's a little out of context.

 

No, this is exactly what I thought you were saying.  You're missing my point, though.

 

You have declared - sans any sort of actual support for it - that one particular bit of replacement part is acceptable whether anyone likes it or not.  Why is a wrong-faction dial acceptable, but a wrong-faction base plate isn't?  There's no support for that in the rules or official stance of the game, at all.

 

The difference is this: You don't want to pay for it.  You think that FFG making you have the right base plate is fine, but making you have the right color dial is not.  You say it's because functionally they provide the same game effect.  But so do both Boba Fett base plates.  They've got all the same stats.  If you can use wrong-faction dials because the color doesn't matter, why should the color of the firing arc on the base plate matter?  Honestly, why do the stats even matter?  I look at the cards, not the base plate, so who cares?  The only thing the base plate really does is show you the firing arc.

 

You're declaring that dial matching doesn't matter for casual play because you said so.  Well, sorry, but no.  As I said, the baseline for the game is set - that's proper components, with exceptions as defined from FFG.  If you're going to deviate from that, that's fine, so long as both players agree.  But you're trying to present your view as somehow standard, official or otherwise.  It's quite simply not.

 

There is no standard that allows mixed dials in play, casual or otherwise.

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.....

 

No, this is exactly what I thought you were saying.  You're missing my point, though.

 

 

There is no standard that allows mixed dials in play, casual or otherwise.

 

Technically there is no standard because as of now each ship is unique to its own faction. So it is impossible to mix dials unless you put them together incorrectly.

 

And I am not missing your point, you are very much against anything that could be consider a "proxy" item. I already said and since you decided to leave it out of your quote box.

 

...For me I don't play with proximity cards or models. I don't like the feel of it ...

So your accusation that I want to be entitled is very much baseless on any sort of information. My point is that casual is not the same way as competitive, and I see you are very passionate about competitive rules. However when playing casual game don't forget the golden rule.

 

​It is not whether you win or loose as long as everyone is having fun. Golden rule is to have fun playing the game.
Edited by Marinealver

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but you are allowed to use thrid party tokens and range rulers in "official play" AND paint your ships.

How is that in any way even remotely related to this?

 

So what is to stop me from painting my dials a solid color covering everything except the manuver?

The TO telling you that if you can't produce correct faction dials you're out of the tournament? It's up to the TO if any alterations are allowed or not. Do you think the avg TO is so stupid they won't have thought of painting the dial black?

Plus that there are markings on both the front and back of the dial you can't cover up, without hiding something. So no you can't just paint the whole thing black. I'd expect even fewer TO's will allow that then would allow a dial from the wrong faction.

 

So FFG is selling me two headhunters that can ONLY be used for scum and a Y Wing that can ONLY be used for Scum?

No. You can use those Z's and Y's with Rebel lists, or Rebel ships with S&V lists, as long as you have enough dials. Hell they even include an extra Y-Wing dial so you can use a rebel Y-Wing model with your S&V lists.

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Just to address several topics that have been brought up/countered:

 

1. I agree with every ruling FFG has made in regards to proxies, correct bases that visually show correct info, etc..BUT I agree, because they are logical and sometimes game impacting rulings consistent with competitively played games. Casual games are no holds barred, whatever everyone agrees to, so none of this convo really matters for the sake of casual.

 

2. I bring up third party tokens and templates being allowed, because they are allowed as long as they don’t impact gameplay. Which is the same reason the Dials should be allowed. The only difference of the dials is the art of Scum VS the art of Rebel/Imp, which does not affect gameplay.

 

3. My further point of evidence is the painting or covering of dials for protective and identification purposes, which is legal and would allow me to, if I wanted to, paint all my dials from all 3 factions bright green for example. This NEVER mattered or would have been questioned, but now my dials will be scrutinized to see if they are the right faction?

 

I am not crying to get what I want, I am pointing out a very strange ruling that is inconsistent with the way FFG runs things. That also happens to really upset me, because I don’t want to own 8 Headhunters so I can have 4 for Rebel and 4 for Scum, but in reality I may as well eat 4 of the ships, because I can only field 4 at a time.

 

The purpose of maneuver dials is to reveal movement and is specific to the ship types.

 

So 2 things: Third Party maneuver dials could be allowed AND these Scum and Rebel dials shouldn’t be “scum” and “rebel” dials, but rather just treated as SHIP Maneuver dials, which is the intention of the game. This would be consistent with the way FFG runs things which is why the ruling is surprising to me.

Oh and this: "I want an oompa loompah, daddy, and I want it now!" is absolutely true! If enough people ask or push for logical change, FFG would consider it, and this is the type of thing that could be influenced to change for the better. So yes I am in fact crying for my oompa loopah, but it also doesn’t have to be in vain if we all ask FFG for our oompa loompahs together! :)

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2. I bring up third party tokens and templates being allowed, because they are allowed as long as they don’t impact gameplay. Which is the same reason the Dials should be allowed. The only difference of the dials is the art of Scum VS the art of Rebel/Imp, which does not affect gameplay.

 

The potential gameplay impacts from cross-factioned dials are the same as for cross-factioned base plates.

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because they are allowed as long as they don’t impact gameplay.

No, they're allowed if everyone agrees to it. The impact on the gameplay doesn't matter, because I can if I wish tell someone they have to play with the cardboard templates and tokens.

 

3. My further point of evidence is the painting or covering of dials for protective and identification purposes

And again, the TO has the final say on these things. Putting a dot or a letter on a dial is not the same thing as painting the whole suffice a different color.

You are then making it difficult to tell if it's even the correct dial, because you're covering up the markings that say what ship the dial belongs to.

And once again, if the TO thinks you're trying to hide what faction a dial belongs to, he doesn't have to accept those dials, he can make you get unmarked ones, and there's pretty much jack you can do about it, because it's the TO's call.

 

I am pointing out a very strange ruling that is inconsistent with the way FFG runs things.

No it's not. You have always been required to have the components that come with that ship when you play. You can't use a different base card for a ship, you can't even use a generic base card for a named pilot or visa versa.

There's also never been a case where there are more than one dial for a given ship. So there's never been a ruling on it. Which means it can not be inconsistent, because there's no precedence. The 3rd party tokens and rulers are simply a replacement of a generic item, not a specific component tied to a specific ship.

The purpose of maneuver dials is to reveal movement and is specific to the ship types.

And is specific to that faction. That's the rule whether you like it or not.

 

So 2 things: Third Party maneuver dials could be allowed

Will never happen. FFG will never let people use 3rd party dials because then there's no way to control accuracy.

which is the intention of the game.

Since Frank said that the dials are faction specific then, no that's not the intention. Since they are in fact doing this largely in the name of selling more models they're not likely to ever change their stance, unless you can prove that somehow people buying fewer ships = more profit for the company.

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Almost afraid to jump in here, but for my group casual play is up to the people playing or in some cases the host.  I've seen a variety.  At some homes the host (or home group) plays differently or allows thing we otherwise might not.  We could choose not to play.  I know one group what won't let you play unless you paint your miniatures, one guy tried a spray can but they still said nope.

 

If is isn't official then it's up to the group or host.

 

It is, after all, a game.  Not a life defining moment, well for most of us anyway.

 

Play casual, no worries...

 

[Edit] P.S. I don't have enough Engine Upgrades so unless I can find someone generous enough I tend to proxy.  Don't shoot me for it  :lol:

Edited by Ken at Sunrise

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If is isn't official then it's up to the group or host.

Yes of course it is. The issue is, that someone shouldn't simply assume or worse demand that the Host or group allow something.

We're also talking mostly about official sanctioned events, not friendly games. Finally, this discussion doesn't really belong here. The question has been asked and answered, if someone doesn't like the answer that doesn't change the rule.

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Almost afraid to jump in here, but for my group casual play is up to the people playing or in some cases the host.  I've seen a variety.  At some homes the host (or home group) plays differently or allows thing we otherwise might not.  We could choose not to play.  I know one group what won't let you play unless you paint your miniatures, one guy tried a spray can but they still said nope.

 

If is isn't official then it's up to the group or host.

 

It is, after all, a game.  Not a life defining moment, well for most of us anyway.

 

Play casual, no worries...

 

[Edit] P.S. I don't have enough Engine Upgrades so unless I can find someone generous enough I tend to proxy.  Don't shoot me for it  :lol:

That group that insist the miniatures are painted are a bit extreme, aren't they? Is that for X-Wing or miniatures for other games? I mean, X-Wing minis are already painted.

 

The way I see it is if you're playing with your mates and they don't have a problem with the wrong faction dial for the same ship type, or a proxy card because you haven't got the right one yet, that's fine. Call it a house rule for your group. It's not impacting the greater community. But if you ever want to get into a tournament, be prepared to have the correct components.

 

At our local gaming club we're pretty casual and it wouldn't be as issue if someone wanted to proxy a card. We're always trying new options anyway. But I know I would draw the line if someone showed up with a dial with a fully painted face. How do I know what's underneath? Is it the correct dial? And why did the idiot feel the need to paint the whole face anyway? What's he trying to hide? Just sounds like something dubious going on there. I know that was a hypothetical situation stated earlier, but I would see it throwing up more problems than it warrants.

 

Expecting FFG to slacken on their stance over correct components, is quite laughable. They quite fairly demand that you use their components to play their games at their tournaments. They're in the business of selling collectable card games, and X-Wing is no exception (other than the fact you get a model as well). It's as simple as that.

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That group that insist the miniatures are painted are a bit extreme, aren't they?

I'm going to guess it was 40k or Warmahoards. In those games, where you get not only unpainted but unassembled models, it's not that uncommon for groups to expect you to paint your models. This is especially true at tournaments, where there is often a painting contest and sometimes the final score can be decided by the amount of painted mini's.

It's not really an unreasonable thing IMO either. Imagine spending hours painting your stuff, making it look good, then having someone putting a gob of gray models on the other side. I know I'd find that a lot less enjoyable. It's not like you're expected to have a 100% painted army when you show up for a friendly game, or be a master painted.

But most people expect you to have at least a few more models painted next time, and 2 or 3 colors on a finished model. Painted models is just part of the hobby, and it improves the look of the game a great deal for everyone.

Edited by VanorDM

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VandorDM, why are you so combative/condescending against every point I am trying to make on this?

 

You even go as far as saying there can’t be precedence for this, because the dials haven’t existed. Obviously thank you for that comment which does nothing but attack me and is not constructive. I stated that there is precedence compared to rulings on OTHER subjects which you have also summarily dismissed.

 

Yes every opposing player can be an A-Hole and force me to use cardboard tokens and range rulers, and so could the TO. BUT that’s not FFG. FFG has allowed it knowing the players WANT them at the discretion of A-Hole Players and TOs that are trolls.

 

FFG could change a ruling based on feedback and this seems like what would be a community wide request. LIKE using custom tokens and templates.

 

All I am saying is that logically the dials ARE generic items referencing specific ships. Ship bases are visual representations that affect gameplay and could confuse players, so YES you need the right base. Thus the ruling for bases is consistent even if there was no earlier precedent directly. Dials are ship specific and the maneuvers are shared so aspect of gameplay or unfairness could occur.

 

So the answer to my original question is that one of the main FFG peeps said the dials are faction specific and need to match.

 

OK, so before that is in print we can all make the case that the decision is silly and explain why. Yes FFG could tell us tough and live with it OR they could agree that we are right and we want it and we buy lots of plastic and cardboard from them so they love us and want all of us to have plenty of Headhunters to fly around! :)

 

Does anyone feel like this ruling absolutely needs to be this way and actually prefers it?? I am heading to Worlds tomorrow and if I happen to get anyone ear that matters I will definitely be mentioning this point. I was just hoping I won’t be the only one…This isn't just one guy complaining. I want to get people to have a voice on this subject since it isn't as cut and dry as "correct components", because I will argue I DO have a Headhunter maneuver dial that functions identical to the other one. I just think this could be something where a unified voice could make a difference.

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