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whafrog

It ain't "Knight level"

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 Normal starting play is likely to be overlooked in favor of Knight Level, especially with the handout lightsaber. The whole thing is just too dangerous.

I would even go so far as to recommend that the whole option be removed, since I really don't think GMs need a rule to tell them how the give players more XP. All this does is set an expectation for the players and force the GMs hand to use it. If GMs want to start their group with more XP and gear, fine. But it shouldn't be some special, game-unique thing that you can only do here (as opposed to EoE and AoR) and need some special rule in order to do.

Talking about extremely and negatively loaded words why define Knight level play dangerous? I see no danger in wanting to play with more experienced characters so you can actually  create more complex charcters than the "farm boy/girl who wants to escape his farm and see the stars" or "runaway guy from Nar Shaddaa who picks up a blaster and starts hunting criminals". You're talking like making anything higher than starting charcter is game breaking and wrong.

How would you run an Old Republic F&D game? Not everybody will find playing Zayne Carrick appealing.

 

As for the special unique thing that you can only do here, i haven't read anywayere that you can't do it in EoE and AoR, i take it for granted you can do it and you actually should do it if you have a mixed group who wants to start as knight-level.

In these games there is nothing you can't do.

 

 

Your character is as complex as you make them, not the numbers on your character sheet. I have a fairly complex character with a rich background and tons of tie in options, yet she is inexperienced. Just because she doesn't have a bajillion XP and 5's in all of her characteristics doesn't mean she isn't complex, nor does her low Force Rating mean that she is any less complex than any other possible character. You don't need XP to make a good, enjoyable, or better character.

 

Now, how would I handle experience in an Old Republic game? I wouldn't, for a variety of reasons. The first of which is that I think the Rebellion Era is the more accessible and interesting of the time periods to play in. Second, the game is set during the Rebellion Era, and that fits me like a glove. Third, the Old Republic is so full of power fantasies and nonsense that I really don't want to touch it. And fourth, and most importantly, as I have already mentioned, you don't need more XP to make a good character.

 

And to make this perfectly clear, I am not badwronging people for playing games with higher XP. I'm a huge advocate of creating a preamble for one's game and having players make characters appropriate to that (with defined starting XP and all). But what I'm not interested in are the expectations that people tend to bring to this game. It's always Jedi this and lightsaber that. That's not what this game is about. This is not an FPS with a single dimension of play. It is those expectations that players are bringing to the game, mixed with hard the advice that GMs should be handing out lightsabers at 150 XP, and this whole nonsense with Knight Level play that are creating false ideas about what this game is and what characters are and are capable of. Taking all of the nonsense out and simply acknowledging that GMs can, if they choose to, start their game with a higher XP level instead of creating some exclusive play mode with an incredibly loaded name is going to clean up a lot of problems.

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I still think that chart is a handy base line to judge relative strength of average characters.

 

But the problem is, it's not.

 

The Force Rating is only 1/3 of the equation. Without the Power Tree and Force Talent Purchases (ones that actually use the force dice) and the willingness to flip pips, your force rating is just a number.

I never said it was a complete picture, or some singular definition, but one component that can provide a base line.

I mean, one of the biggest problems with having these conversations is that there isn't always a good frame of reference for understanding. So a basic "guideline" such as the chart, plus the skill description of the lightsaber skill (ranks 1-5), plus the various specs (ranks in reflect, parry, the inevitable signature abilities, etc.) and powers purchased ("mastery" upgrades and etc)

So I disagree. I think that it is a potential beginning to the discussion, with outliers and exceptions identifiable, and a frame of reference to facilitate discussion.

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Well, I did some quick math and I need to rename lightsaber master into lightsaber lunatic.   Btw this is just a quick glance at all the talents in the F&D, Age, and Edge.  So here are the numbers reflect 10, improved reflect 1, supreme reflect 1, Parry 19

improved parry 3, Supreme parry 1, feint 2, dodge 2, defensive training 5.  I consider this lunacy because based on this even with a good hit with a lightsaber a lightsaber master could effectively take no damage except three strain from the attack not including the fact that he has increased the difficulty by 5 which means he would be rolling against 3 red and 2 purple.  Getting hit by a blaster is equally hard but not impossible with reflect.  Then there is the fact that dodge would allow one to simply increase the difficulty of the shot.  Though honestly this is almost as tricky as getting to a FR 7.  
 
Personally I see myself when I make my character I will start with an Artisan/Shien and then tack on soresu/protector to be a as close to the Jedi ideals as I can get.  Just my musings in this matter.  For getting to Knight level lol

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I was reading my Tales of the Jedi collections and most of the characters who are still in training are refered to simply as Jedi Knights. They are mostly what we would think of as Padawans in terms of development, but are expected to perform missions without their master's help. Most of them have very limited force skill. Its hard to pin down the expectations for these very loaded terms.

That's an interesting observation but who is referring to them as Jedi Knights? the other members of the Order or the common people of the galaxy? i assume that the laymen don't know and don't care about the padawan/knight/master division and for them anyone who dresses in robes and uses a lightsaber is a Jedi.

 

 

In these old/early republic stories, both the Jedi themselves and their masters refer to them as 'Knights' regardless of training. I believe Nomi Sunrider is referred to that way by her master Thon before she even trains much. Ulic, Cay, and Tott refer to each other as Jedi Knights despite being in the process of their 'trial'.

 

In the early comics I have read, all before episodes 1,2,3 came out, once a person was taking on for training; they were referred to as a Jedi or Jedi knight interchangeably. All Jedi are expected to complete some sort of mission/trial to prove their independence, but the formal divisions of rank seem absent.

 

Perhaps this is a function of how loosely organized the Jedi Order is during this time period. I don't think there is any mention of a Jedi Council during this period and all Masters are independently training students in whatever system where they agreed to be 'watchmen'. Jedi seem to meet for socialization and to ask for assistance, but rarely operate in any cohesive way. They seem to be more like itinerant fantasy wizards who carve out domains and take on apprentices.

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Perhaps this is a function of how loosely organized the Jedi Order is during this time period. I don't think there is any mention of a Jedi Council during this period and all Masters are independently training students in whatever system where they agreed to be 'watchmen'. Jedi seem to meet for socialization and to ask for assistance, but rarely operate in any cohesive way. They seem to be more like itinerant fantasy wizards who carve out domains and take on apprentices.

Oh, very interesting, I like that.

I may even go so far as to make that actual history in my game and that the organization (or re-organization as I have already borrowed enough from SWtOR that to remove it would be too jarring for my players, I think) that we saw in the prequel trilogy directly led to the downfall of the order.

In fact, that could clear up some issues we have just been "hand waving", thus far. 

Perhaps, the common folks remember the Jedi more as Aki described above, but for a notable while they became so rigidly organized, insular and such that people stopped thinking about them as much. Then the Empire comes along.  By "A New Hope" the average citizen of the Galaxy thinks of the Jedi "heyday" being longer ago than the 20 years since they actually fell.

 

In essence, by withdrawing into their own cloistered, morally-superior self-importance the Jedi actually fell in the minds of the people long before tPM.

 

 

Sorry, kinda got on a thing, there.

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I believe that while the Watchman system remained in effect until the end of the Republic, for the longest part of it's hisotry the order had a centralized organizaion and a Jedi Council....so i think that your idea should be heavily  mixed  with an excessive beaurocratisation and dogmatic stance by the Order (a recurring problem in it's history it seems); i guess that in SWTOR times the order had achived a balance between a certain centralization and enough flexibility of its members out in the galaxy.

And as weird as it is, the Jedi Order usually was most appreciated by the republic during wars or times of conflict, so the logest period of peace after Ruusan really hurt them.

Edited by Lareg

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Ultimately, the important part is how (what could be considered) the average citizen of the galaxy thought of the Jedi.

 

To go back to the wizard analogy: let's take Gandalf and (pre-fall) Saruman.

 

People all over knew of Gandalf (for better or for worse and by many names) from innocent Hobbit children and fat innkeepers to lofty Elf lords and ladies and great warriors.

Saruman was, in his own mind and seemingly the mind of others, too important to waste his time going to and fro among the common folk.

 

As a result, the more powerful Saruman is largely unknown in Middle-earth except to other important luminaries. 

it was Gandalf who created the more popular and well-known image of a wizard in the minds of the people.

 

Now, to wrangle this back on topic...

Perhaps it is n that example that we can see a more workable definition of "knight". One not based on power, per se, but the willingness to go out and do rather than stay back and meditate and some tangible experience in doing so.

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Now, to wrangle this back on topic...

Perhaps it is n that example that we can see a more workable definition of "knight". One not based on power, per se, but the willingness to go out and do rather than stay back and meditate and some tangible experience in doing so.

I think you've got a solid point there, and probably captures the intended theme of what FFG was aiming for when they called their advanced PC option by the name "knight level."

 

Sadly, since you've got the prequels and TCW series that focused on the "elites" of the Jedi Order, the cream of the crop, there's going to be of the mindset that "knight = unstoppable badass" while glossing over the Knights (and even some Masters) that died in Windu's failed attempt to stage a rescue mission for Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC.  It can be seen in the various posts in this thread about people complaining that a "knight-level" PC can't do all the stuff we see a Prequel-era Jedi Knight (allegedly) accomplish, though in truth some of that can be done by means outside of Force powers (such as avoiding attacks or having high results on Vigilance checks).

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We do, but part of the process, especially with thornier issues like this, is to see if others are having the same issue, what EXACTLY the issue is, and try and generate possible solutions that don't involve any major changes, overhauls, or adjustments that would conflict with the previous Core books or cause a kind of resonance cascade that would cause a dozen other problem in other areas of the game.

 

Reporting a problem is great, but if we can't also come up with a few possible solutions there's only so much FFG can do with that feedback. Especially when you're talking issues heavily reliant on perspective like this.

 

On the one hand you can represent Obi-wan (and probably even Qui-gon) as of TPM using existing knight level play if you really want to make the effort.

 

On the other hand there's a lot of expectations with the word "Knight" when talking force users, and a lot of nuanced possible use of the force in the films that can be interpreted in different ways. For a lot of people it's difficult to have that mechanic match the thematic and capability expectations of what it means to be a Jedi Knight.

 

It's not always as easy as sending an e-mail saying that some talent needs to run on 2 strain instead of 1.

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Even if someone individually disagrees with the idea that the "Knight-level play" option creates Jedi that aren't up to par with the idea of a Knight, I think this topic demonstrates how hard it is to put that kind of label on it without disappointing or confusing a bunch of people. I'm not arguing that they need to boost the power of Jedi so that 150xp allows them to make what they think about when they see the words "Jedi Knight;" I'm merely hoping they'll change the label to "Advanced play" or something. There's really no downside to that.

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Even if someone individually disagrees with the idea that the "Knight-level play" option creates Jedi that aren't up to par with the idea of a Knight, I think this topic demonstrates how hard it is to put that kind of label on it without disappointing or confusing a bunch of people. I'm not arguing that they need to boost the power of Jedi so that 150xp allows them to make what they think about when they see the words "Jedi Knight;" I'm merely hoping they'll change the label to "Advanced play" or something. There's really no downside to that.

 

We'll see. I did note when I first saw the career and spec names being concerned with the baggage a lot of those names had. Guess I should have thought about "Knight" level too...

 

At least we seemed to have avoided an actual Jedi class. You think this is bad, that thread would have been far worse.

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Sadly, since you've got the prequels and TCW series that focused on the "elites" of the Jedi Order, the cream of the crop, there's going to be of the mindset that "knight = unstoppable badass" while glossing over the Knights (and even some Masters) that died in Windu's failed attempt to stage a rescue mission for Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC.  It can be seen in the various posts in this thread about people complaining that a "knight-level" PC can't do all the stuff we see a Prequel-era Jedi Knight (allegedly) accomplish, though in truth some of that can be done by means outside of Force powers (such as avoiding attacks or having high results on Vigilance checks).

 

The problem is that Ahsoka is 100% canon as well, and it's hard to even accurately represent her in TCW Movie and Season 1 with 150xp. You can, but not with much room to spare. And not once in a Movie+6 Seasons was Ahsoka described as being an above average Padawan, the cream of the crop, or anything else. The only other Padawan we really see in fair detail is Barriss, who is on par with Ahsoka for most of the show, and by Season 5 is (spoilers, highlight to read) strong enough to duel Anakin and hold her own long enough to escape.

 

Basically, you can argue the definition of a Jedi Knight all you want, but the fact remains that there is a large amount of expectation and ambiguity with the term. Even the fact it stirs up this kind of discussion and disagreement should be reason enough to change the term to something simple like "Advanced Play." Then the debate can end, and people can continue to define Jedi Knight however they would like without this weird pseudo-definition sitting in the book confusing some people.

Even if someone individually disagrees with the idea that the "Knight-level play" option creates Jedi that aren't up to par with the idea of a Knight, I think this topic demonstrates how hard it is to put that kind of label on it without disappointing or confusing a bunch of people. I'm not arguing that they need to boost the power of Jedi so that 150xp allows them to make what they think about when they see the words "Jedi Knight;" I'm merely hoping they'll change the label to "Advanced play" or something. There's really no downside to that.

Winner winner.

Edited by Smog

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And not once in a Movie+6 Seasons was Ahsoka described as being an above average Padawan, the cream of the crop, or anything else. The only other Padawan we really see in fair detail is Barriss, who is on par with Ahsoka for most of the show...

 

Just to reinforce the point, the only thing different about Ahsoka is that she is younger than most Padawans, causing some to underestimate her (which she finds aggravating).  But the main take-away is that the Jedi grant titles based on capability, not age or some other arbitrary measure.  So if Ahsoka represents a Padawan, and XP is a measure of capability, then measuring a Padawan's capability based on Ahsoka's abilities should be fairly accurate.

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Is it stated explicitly that she is younger than most poadawans? i rember reading that initates that don't find a master to transition to padawan by age 13 wash out to the Service Corps, and that's what almost happened to Obi-Wan, so if i read correctly that Ahsoka was 14 when she  beacme apadwan something isn't right. Or maybe Lucas chaged his mind once again not caring for continuity.

 

As for the rest i agree with Whafrog. Mhmm maybe rising the Adavanced level paly to 170-180 xp could alleviate that problem and let build a better Ahsoka like padawan?

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Is it stated explicitly that she is younger than most poadawans?

 

Both Anakin and Obiwan think she's a youngling in the TCW movie, and other characters reference it in other episodes.  Even Ziro the Hutt calls her a youngling, and has a good chuckle when she calls herself a Padawan.

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All it really means is the movie characters have a lot of XP and Jedi in the old system were VERY VERY well trained. Basically they had a LOT of XP by the time they became knights. Especially during the clone wars. 

The RPG is going to start at a much lower XP level so the characters have room to grow. But nothing is stopping GMs from running characters at whatever xp level they want. 

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I don't even understand why there's pushback on the label issue. The game doesn't need to alter people's myriad different perceptions of what a Knight is; it can avoid the issue entirely. Clearly nothing is stopping GMs from setting whatever XP level they want. The point is just changing the label. Then people won't think they should be able to make a movie-level Jedi and come up disappointed with the game as a result of a label. The whole thing can be avoided by changing 13 words in the entire book from Knight to Advanced. 

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Just to reinforce the point, the only thing different about Ahsoka is that she is younger than most Padawans, causing some to underestimate her (which she finds aggravating). But the main take-away is that the Jedi grant titles based on capability, not age or some other arbitrary measure. So if Ahsoka represents a Padawan, and XP is a measure of capability, then measuring a Padawan's capability based on Ahsoka's abilities should be fairly accurate.

You're prolly gonna hate me, but I watched TCW again last night, and Ahsokas doable at 150. Though in fairness she could be higher based on the concept that ani and obi started at +150 in TPM and earned more, so ahsoka got bonus xp to keep her in the same xp ballpark as the others.

Also your other issue does arise. Obi and ventress are fighting and suddenly sense ani and ahsoka jump to hyperspace.

Tricky issue.

Edited by Ghostofman

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Just to reinforce the point, the only thing different about Ahsoka is that she is younger than most Padawans, causing some to underestimate her (which she finds aggravating). But the main take-away is that the Jedi grant titles based on capability, not age or some other arbitrary measure. So if Ahsoka represents a Padawan, and XP is a measure of capability, then measuring a Padawan's capability based on Ahsoka's abilities should be fairly accurate.

You're prolly gonna hate me, but I watched TCW again last night, and Ahsokas doable at 150.

 

I wouldn't hate you, Ghost :)  Actually, I don't think I've argued that Ahsoka can't be represented at 150, just that 150 is not representative of a Jedi Knight.  She's a very young Padawan, and though ahead of her peers (in her age group), I've no doubt 150 could be very close.

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Just to reinforce the point, the only thing different about Ahsoka is that she is younger than most Padawans, causing some to underestimate her (which she finds aggravating). But the main take-away is that the Jedi grant titles based on capability, not age or some other arbitrary measure. So if Ahsoka represents a Padawan, and XP is a measure of capability, then measuring a Padawan's capability based on Ahsoka's abilities should be fairly accurate.

You're prolly gonna hate me, but I watched TCW again last night, and Ahsokas doable at 150. Though in fairness she could be higher based on the concept that ani and obi started at +150 in TPM and earned more, so ahsoka got bonus xp to keep her in the same xp ballpark as the others.

Also your other issue does arise. Obi and ventress are fighting and suddenly sense ani and ahsoka jump to hyperspace.

Tricky issue.

 

 

You know, one thing I think is seriously lacking with all these conversations is actual character creation, and stating of concepts to see what's possible and what's not. It's supposed to be a beta with us testing as many facets of the new book as much as we can. I think we should start actually coming up with stat blocks for Star Wars characters--or create characters similiar in ability--based on what we've seen them do. That way we can gain a realistic benchmark of XP expenditure to see how much XP it would take to get characters to where they should be. 

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Just to reinforce the point, the only thing different about Ahsoka is that she is younger than most Padawans, causing some to underestimate her (which she finds aggravating). But the main take-away is that the Jedi grant titles based on capability, not age or some other arbitrary measure. So if Ahsoka represents a Padawan, and XP is a measure of capability, then measuring a Padawan's capability based on Ahsoka's abilities should be fairly accurate.

You're prolly gonna hate me, but I watched TCW again last night, and Ahsokas doable at 150. Though in fairness she could be higher based on the concept that ani and obi started at +150 in TPM and earned more, so ahsoka got bonus xp to keep her in the same xp ballpark as the others.

Also your other issue does arise. Obi and ventress are fighting and suddenly sense ani and ahsoka jump to hyperspace.

Tricky issue.

 

 

You know, one thing I think is seriously lacking with all these conversations is actual character creation, and stating of concepts to see what's possible and what's not. It's supposed to be a beta with us testing as many facets of the new book as much as we can. I think we should start actually coming up with stat blocks for Star Wars characters--or create characters similiar in ability--based on what we've seen them do. That way we can gain a realistic benchmark of XP expenditure to see how much XP it would take to get characters to where they should be. 

 

Here you are:

 

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/114395-knight-level-play-too-soon/

 

at page 3 you'll find Ghostofman build of Obi-Wan in TPM

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