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whafrog

Beta 8 - Force Move Strength limit

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I have to say the new Beta 8 allowance for multiple instances of the Strength upgrade really bugs me.  I'd ban it from my home game, but even as part of the general rules I don't think it, nor the Strength upgrades in general, convey the flavour adequately.  With the most recent changes, a lucky Force user with only FR2 and all the Strength upgrades could potentially move Star Destroyers or even the Death Star, and this is never seen, at least in canon.  Even Yoda is visibly working to pull an X-Wing out of a swamp and move it to dry land.  Even Yoda is visibly strained preventing a huge fuel tank from crushing Obiwan.  These are at most Silhouette 3 objects, even the tank.

 

One solution, that would allow it for those who want it in their games, and limit it for those who think it's ridiculous, might be to double the cost in Force pips for each Strength upgrade invoked.  This would at least be in keeping with the nature of Silhouette in the game.  Silhouette size increases are generally geometric in nature, and it would make sense that the cost of an upgrade invocation would be geometric as well.

 

In fact, what would make even more sense is to have to spend a Force pip for each Silhouette increase beyond Silhouette 1.  That would be considerably more in keeping with canon.

 

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Thing is, this wasn't a rules change. It was just a small change in wording. The rules for Move are still consistent with EotE and AoR, so if the power was changed it'd have to be an errata change across systems. The Strength upgrades have always been able to be activated multiple times.

Taking the Star Destroyer example, though...let's consider that the "lucky Force user" would have to be within range of such an object, and would have to contend not only with the size of the craft but also the strength of the repulsors or engines. Plus that, if the craft moved at all, he could move the kilometer-long object by degrees of meters—an inconsequential amount.

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Not to mention an "8 dice" difficulty with an attack.  with Sam's suggestion that would be a 3 challenge dice 2 difficulty dice attack.

 

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with just saying that 5+ or 6+ silhouette objects are "impossible" to move.  So spend a DP to even do it.  Maybe that is being overly draconian, but if it breaks your immersion in the universe, I think you're within rights as a GM to say so.

 

Although that is stormwind-ing it a bit.  I'm not fond of the beta update for move myself, but it's just bringing it back in line with what it was in Edge and Rebellion.  what damage is done, is done.  If for no other reason than backwards compatibility, I don't think it will change back.

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Ah, thanks for the reality checks.  For some reason I neglected to think about the difficulty, which is indeed onerous.  Still, as a GM I wouldn't allow much over Silhouette 4, unless there is a good story reason.  The player could always present a compelling case, but it would have to be pretty strong narratively, not just a means to take out "another squad of stormtroopers".

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You won't really be able to do much with it till you have at least FR 4. 
force rating 3 might get you 6 pips to work with. But if you use up most with moving the object you don't have much left for range or other things. How often are you characters with in range to be able to hurl a star destroyer and have enough force rating to  do it and have the range? to move it?

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Not to mention an "8 dice" difficulty with an attack.  with Sam's suggestion that would be a 3 challenge dice 2 difficulty dice attack.

 

 

Greetings!

 

Sam (FFG) made to you that suggestion? Can you post it here please? http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/

 

So the main idea is that everything that beats Diff 5, Upgrades the difficullty like a Tractor Beam 6, or in this case, Move Silhouette difficulty?

 

Thanks mate :)

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I believe the Sam suggestion was made in reference to the increasing difficulty of making modifications and what happens when it goes over the Formidable rating.  This was mainly brought to light by the Ilum crystal and it's unprecedented 7 modifications, but could occur with a few select attachments in EotE and AoR as well, due to having 4 modification options (though there may have been some assumption in the initial design that PCs would fail at least one of those checks).

 

As for the difficulty of using Move on Silhouette 6+ objects, we've got an in-game instance of a difficultly pool being more than 5 dice in the form of the Heavy Tractor Beam, which has the Tractor weapon quality at a rating of 6, meaning the pilot trying to escape has to roll against 6 difficulty dice.  Since hurling an object doesn't use the standard method of determining the Discipline check's difficulty, I'd say that hurling a Silhouette 7 Dreadnought-class heavy cruiser would be made against 7 purple dice rather than 2 reds and 3 purple.

 

As for whafrog's post, I was initially in the same frame of mind.  And the fact that the Week 8 update had to add "may be activated multiple times" to Move's Strength Upgrade and I'm not quite convinced that the "you can trigger everything multiple times unless it says otherwise" really was the default assumption when Force and Destiny was written.

 

But, given the general rarity of a PC being in range of objects that big (targeted object has to be within Short Range, and the Range Upgrades don't affect that part of the power), I don't see it as being that big of a game-breaker. Most Silhouette 6 starships aren't capable of landing in atmosphere, and while buildings could fall into that extreme category, you'd need another Control Upgrade to able to uproot them... at which point, say hello to major Conflict penalties for causing unnecessary destruction (it's tantamount to using a bazooka to squish a spider).

 

On a smaller scale, it does allow a PC with only one or two Strength Upgrades to occasionally pull off an impressive trick like tossing aside an AT-AT walker.  Or perhaps mimic a bit of Anakin's stunt in RotS of guiding a burning wreck of a capital ship to a controlled crash; he did not that under those circumstances, the ability to fly the ship was pretty much irrelevant, and he could have been using Move in between the occasional Piloting (Space) skill check to guide the ship down for "yet another happy landing" as Obi-Wan described it.  I'm thinking this was the main intent of the update/clarification.

 

Now that being said, one possible idea is when the PC is "pushing" to manipulate something bigger than they'd normally be able to manipulate via Move (i.e. activating the Strength Upgrades more than once), the PC has to spend a Destiny Point, with perhaps a Hard Discipline check to get over the "it's too big!" mental hurdle the first time they try such a stunt.  Luke obviously failed his Discipline check to lift the X-Wing, and while he might have had enough Force Points and the Destiny Point to flip, the failed check simply meant he didn't believe it as possible, and thus why he failed.

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I think the image we have of someone like Yoda exhibiting strain to move something especially large would be better suited if any use of Move required a Discipline check vs. silhouette of object, rather than just when you're making an attack with an objct.

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I think the image we have of someone like Yoda exhibiting strain to move something especially large would be better suited if any use of Move required a Discipline check vs. silhouette of object, rather than just when you're making an attack with an objct.

See, I always took that scene as not Yoda being exhausted/strained/tired, but more that he was exasperated that it took such a blatant show of power on his part to finally break through Luke's preconceived notions.  Consider his rebuke when Luke said it couldn't be done, mentioning that with Luke it was the "always it cannot be done" and "hear you nothing that I say?" elements.  He's tried being patient with Luke in helping the boy break free of his preconceived notions ("you must unlearn what you have learned!") and the complete and utter dejection that Luke was feeling after his failure was quite possibly the last straw for Yoda.

 

He's used to several centuries of students largely accepting his teaching advice as gospel, and now the fate of the galaxy is resting on the shoulders of this adult who keeps questioning what is and isn't possible with the Force.  That's certainly got to try his patience as well, and it speaks to Yoda's general sense of serene calm that you don't seem him whack Luke upside the head with his cane at least once.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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This came to mind while reading this post.

To answer the original post, I now have come to terms with the ruling. It's going to be rare you roll that many light side pips on a roll to nice anything that big and the range factor kinda keeps it in check.

My thought was and has been addressed in some other post but I'll throw up here too.

When trying to Move a npc, would you still use the size of the npc to determine difficulty?

Sorta feels like they should get a chance to resist. Many difficulty should be their Willpower?

Or a size + Willpower as upgrades kinda a thing? Minions can't resist? Many only Rivels and up can? How have you ruled this in your games?

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When trying to Move a npc, would you still use the size of the npc to determine difficulty?

Sorta feels like they should get a chance to resist. Many difficulty should be their Willpower?

Or a size + Willpower as upgrades kinda a thing? Minions can't resist? Many only Rivels and up can? How have you ruled this in your games?

 

Any NPC that's not an important character can be moved with no difficulty. If using the Move Control Upgrade to move them at a faster rate, then you would perform a Discipline check and use their silhouette (typically Silhouette 1) as the difficulty.

 

Any NPC that the GM feels should be able to resist such as any Nemesis or story important character (or alternatively a PC being targeted by Move), is, by default, able to do so with the Discipline difficulty set as an opposed check based on the targeted character's Discipline (if they're a force user) or Resilience.

 

You can find a few more examples for things besides Move in the "Resisting Force Power Checks" sidebar on page 195.

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Any NPC that the GM feels should be able to resist such as any Nemesis or story important character (or alternatively a PC being targeted by Move), is, by default, able to do so with the Discipline difficulty set as an opposed check based on the targeted character's Discipline (if they're a force user) or Resilience.

Resilience is an excellent skill for a general "resistance" skill. I can definitely see Jace Malcom from TOR Hope trailer utilizing it against Malgus' Unleash power. And it also makes sense against Harm and some uses of Bind.

Not sure about Move though...always felt like Athletics was a better choice to oppose that. I know the beta book takes things a bit differently :) but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Edited by awayputurwpn

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Any NPC that the GM feels should be able to resist such as any Nemesis or story important character (or alternatively a PC being targeted by Move), is, by default, able to do so with the Discipline difficulty set as an opposed check based on the targeted character's Discipline (if they're a force user) or Resilience.

Resilience is an excellent skill for a general "resistance" skill. I can definitely see Jace Malcom from TOR Hope trailer utilizing it against Malgus' Unleash power. And it also makes sense against Harm and some uses of Bind.

Not sure about Move though...always felt like Athletics was a better choice to oppose that. I know the beta book takes things a bit differently :) but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

Well, the book suggests using Discipline vs. Discipline as the default, but then goes onto to say that other skills can be used by the defender if the GM thinks it fits.

 

So if you want to use Athletics to resist an enemy's use of Move to slip out of their TK grip is fine... so long as the GM approves it.

 

For instance, using Cool to ward off a Force user's attempt to break your mind (inflict strain with the Influence power) would be just as okay by me as using Discipline would be.  Or using a Knowledge skill to fill your mind with unrelated gibberish to block an attempt to use Sense to read your surface thoughts would work as well.

 

Since using Unleash or Move to attack with a hurled object is counted as a ranged attack, I probably wouldn't allow a resistance check under most circumstances, particularly since it'd be a short cut to boosting up their defensive abilities.

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I have to say the new Beta 8 allowance for multiple instances of the Strength upgrade really bugs me.  I'd ban it from my home game, but even as part of the general rules I don't think it, nor the Strength upgrades in general, convey the flavour adequately.  With the most recent changes, a lucky Force user with only FR2 and all the Strength upgrades could potentially move Star Destroyers or even the Death Star, and this is never seen, at least in canon.  Even Yoda is visibly working to pull an X-Wing out of a swamp and move it to dry land.  Even Yoda is visibly strained preventing a huge fuel tank from crushing Obiwan.  These are at most Silhouette 3 objects, even the tank.

 

One solution, that would allow it for those who want it in their games, and limit it for those who think it's ridiculous, might be to double the cost in Force pips for each Strength upgrade invoked.  This would at least be in keeping with the nature of Silhouette in the game.  Silhouette size increases are generally geometric in nature, and it would make sense that the cost of an upgrade invocation would be geometric as well.

In fact, what would make even more sense is to have to spend a Force pip for each Silhouette increase beyond Silhouette 1.  That would be considerably more in keeping with canon.

Paying extra force pips for more strength and/or having it cost strain. Perhaps even putting a cap on Force-throw and force-pull (perhaps nothing bigger than silhouette 2) and to exceed that cap you pay strain. Maybe 2 strain for every one point of difference between strength and silhouette and the same amount for activating fore-pull/throw.

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