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Luthor Harkon

To chase or not to chase...

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Dear all,

 

Am I right having difficulties handling chases with the rules as written? My PCs are often in situations where either they or their opponents flee and the respective other party giving chase. The rules as written are rather not suited for that kind of situation. Having each other’s turn in sequence is one problem, but not the main one and certainly not one easy to get rid of. The main problem in my view is, that the moment one (N)PC runs away at full speed (i.e. running (or even using the Sprint talent)), it is almost impossible for another one to catch him, let alone do something like striking with a melee weapon or shooting after him (considering all participants have (more or less) the same Move allowance). The moment one participant decides to shoot, he normally is out of the match as he can only do a half move, which is normally six times slower than the one running (let alone sprinting). Striking with a Melee weapon is normally not possible either as a Charge action is only half as fast as Running, so you will normally never reach your opponent to be in striking distance. The problem as I see it is that it is not possible to shoot (or strike) on the run as done in most movies. Thus the really cinematic situations of chases are simply not taking place in 40K it seems…

 

Any opinions? Thanks in advance!

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Remember that it is rare that you can move the full distance you can, because of obstacles or bad navigation. Unless you are in a middle of a flat desert of course :). Over here, we usually roll Acrobatics+Agility (for tricky movement) or Navigation+Agility (for smart movement), with each DoS decreasing the distance by 1 meter (if the PCs are the chasers - if they are the chased, then the DoS increases the distance) and each DoF increasing it. The distance the chaser must cover this way is equal to the base movement difference plus the Initiative difference. Instead of running, the chased characters can try to vanish by rolling Stealth+Subtlety (for blending) or Acrobatics/Athletics+Strength/Agility (for finding an obstacle). Special movement distance bonuses (like Unnatural Agility) are added to the DoS earned/subtracted from the DoF suffered. 

 

Example: Joe the Acolyte catches Tim the Heretic. After a short firefight, Tim runs away and Joe gives chase. They are 5 meters away from each other at this time -> Joe has an AGB of 3, while Tim has 4 -> Joe rolled 8 for Initiative, Tim rolled 7 -> Joe has to cover 5 meters to catch Tim.  Tim is an experienced runner, so he rolls Acrobatics+Agility, while Joe is more like an explorer, so he opposes it with Navigation+Agility. Joe beats Tim by 2 DoS: he finds a small shortcut through a pile of trash, and now Tim is only 3 meters away from him. Joe fumbles the next roll, and not only he gets 2 DoF, but Tim beats him by 3 DoS, so that 3 meters suddenly increase to 8 as Joe not only mistakes a shortcut with a dead-end but Tim also proves his worth as a runner. The DM decides that Tim gained enough time to vanish, so the heretic rolls Acrobatics+Agility to vanish, while Joe opposes him with Navigate+Agility (as he is still giving chase). Tim beats him again by a single DoS, so Joe can only watch as he disappears behind a roof - by the time Joe scales the building, Tim is already gone. 

 

Example 2: Tim has a bad day, and soon after he shook off Joe, he encounters Emma, another Acolyte. Emma is not your average Inquisitorial grunt though, as she is half-Eldar and thus has Unnatural Agility (2). When the chase starts, there are 8 meters between them -> Tim still has AGB 4, Emma has AGB 4 +2 -> Tim rolled 9 for Initiative, Emma rolled 12 -> Emma has to cover a meager 3 meters to catch Tim. Tim is in some real trouble. He succeeds in his first Acrobatics/Agility test, earning 2 DoS over Emma, but that gain is immediately nullified by Emma's Unnatural Agility. Next, Emma goes into overdirve and gets 4 DoS over poor Tim, catching him easily. She is now in close-combat with him (Structured Time on) and she can start the fight anywhere within 3 meters of him (the "unused" meters she has from the chase).

Edited by AtoMaki

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I just let people move and shoot. Hip shooting is not a thing in my games. I can't even explain to myself why "You cannot move and pull the trigger of your weapon while moving in the enemy's general direction" is impossible without a talent.

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I just let people move and shoot. Hip shooting is not a thing in my games. I can't even explain to myself why "You cannot move and pull the trigger of your weapon while moving in the enemy's general direction" is impossible without a talent.

 

Because it's actually hard to do in real life (running and shooting, while hitting a target accurately). Hell, its hard for most people to hit stationary pop up targets on firing ranges. ^^. 

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I just let people move and shoot. Hip shooting is not a thing in my games. I can't even explain to myself why "You cannot move and pull the trigger of your weapon while moving in the enemy's general direction" is impossible without a talent.

 

Because it's actually hard to do in real life (running and shooting, while hitting a target accurately). Hell, its hard for most people to hit stationary pop up targets on firing ranges. ^^. 

 

 

But in Call of Duty shooting while moving is no different from standing while shooting...

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Which is why in my game there's a difficulty modifier on the shots, and not a flat "you can't do this". Also, when using recoilless weaponry (las, for example) a lot of the problems when shooting + moving are not an issue.

 

(I have never played CoD. I prefer holding an actual gun at the range in my town.)

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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I've tried both CoD and shooting while moving (a slow walk, but still). I sucked at shooting while moving, but there was nothing to stop me...

I really dislike the talent-gate mechanism, honestly. Sure, maybe you get a penalty so harsh it's almost never gonna work, but at least you can try before getting the talent. (Incidentally, I believe this should be the case for at least Swift Attack too.)
 

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For what it's worth, <Dark Heresy - The Inquisitor's Handbook> describes the [Hot Pursuit] alternate Acrobatics use. It scales with Agility still, but not as harshly as pitting Movement rates against one another. Laconically, it's basically an Extended Opposed Agility Test to see who gets 10 "Pursuit Points" or "PP" first. Winning Initiative grants a participant 1 PP to start with and gain 1 PP every time they succeed their Agility test (and an additional one for each DoS on said test). Failing a test reduces their PP by 1, 2, or 1d5 depending on DoF (1, 2 to 3, or 4+ respectively). When either the pursuers or the pursued reaches 10 PP, the expected result follows, either escape or capture. Movement rate has nothing to do with Hot Pursuits, which may alleviate your issue a bit.

 

On running and gunning, I don't see why people would be able to attempt it normally without some major penalties. A stationary shooter hitting a stationary target is fairly simple, A moving shooter hitting a stationary target is a little more complicated, but arguably doable. A moving shooter hitting a moving target isn't something the average person should be able to do with any degree of consistency. I would say [Hip Shooting] is possible without the proper Talent/training to move and still hit a moving target, but there would be a big BS hit.

Edited by Asymptomatic

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Which is why in my game there's a difficulty modifier on the shots, and not a flat "you can't do this". Also, when using recoilless weaponry (las, for example) a lot of the problems when shooting + moving are not an issue.

 

(I have never played CoD. I holding an actual gun.)

 

I was in the army and yeah...trying to a hit a target accuratley at range while basically speed walking is not easy. ^^. 

 

At any rate, opinions will vary, but I see it as doable already. You can already half action move and shoot in a single turn - which by the books is a mere few seconds. It's still 'moving and shooting'. The Hip-Shooting talent just means the character can actually aim accurately while basically double-timing it. 

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I just let people move and shoot. Hip shooting is not a thing in my games. I can't even explain to myself why "You cannot move and pull the trigger of your weapon while moving in the enemy's general direction" is impossible without a talent.

 

Because it's actually hard to do in real life (running and shooting, while hitting a target accurately). Hell, its hard for most people to hit stationary pop up targets on firing ranges. ^^. 

 

 

But in Call of Duty shooting while moving is no different from standing while shooting...

 

 

Actually, in Call of Duty while your sprinting you can't shoot. Unless the newer two changed that? 

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Which is why in my game there's a difficulty modifier on the shots, and not a flat "you can't do this". Also, when using recoilless weaponry (las, for example) a lot of the problems when shooting + moving are not an issue.

 

(I have never played CoD. I holding an actual gun.)

 

I was in the army and yeah...trying to a hit a target accuratley at range while basically speed walking is not easy. ^^. 

 

At any rate, opinions will vary, but I see it as doable already. You can already half action move and shoot in a single turn - which by the books is a mere few seconds. It's still 'moving and shooting'. The Hip-Shooting talent just means the character can actually aim accurately while basically double-timing it. 

 

Mhm. Doesn't solve the OP's problem, though. Mind, I think the real devil is in the movement rates per se. A two to three second snap-shot while standing shouldn't make it impossible to catch up to a perp.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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I also remember that the Inquisitor's Handbook had chase rules that always worked out well for us. It felt a little stilted, because it was based on a track of 0-10, rather than directly as a result of specific character attributes. Fortunately, we have a pretty good group, and narratively it was tied in to the environment nicely.

 

On hip shooting, I don't think it's necessary to have a talent to try it, but that type of thing is fantastically difficult unless you're just spraying rounds on target. Take the Maersk Alabama hijacking, for instance. That's considered to have been one of the most difficult shots to make. Period. Shooting a towed, moving, bobbing target from another moving, bobbing platform, at a speed of IIRC 12 or so knots (around 15 mph). That's phenomenally a difficult shot, and it was taken by some of the most highly trained marksmen in the world. I'm sure there's tons of acolytes that could make it, but it shouldn't be easy.

 

If you wana play call of duty, then play call of duty. This isn't call of duty.

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Thanks for all the helpful replies. I remember the IH rules, maybe I try them. I understand and appreciate the experience of people in the forum that actually wielded guns. The heaviest gun I ever wileded was a super soaker back in the early nineties. Waht remains a problem is the use of melee weapons though, but this is slmost another topic. Because charging is only half as fast as running means, that you will never be able to reach* someone of your speed, that is running away (*reaching = hitting/grappling or whatver is needed to stop the opponent). Maybe running as fast as someone fleeing (and reaching his position thereby) should mean you entered melee, so that, when he runs (instead of disengaging) again in his turn, you get a free attack.

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Maybe running as fast as someone fleeing (and reaching his position thereby) should mean you entered melee, so that, when he runs (instead of disengaging) again in his turn, you get a free attack.

Yes. This is -exactly- what we do.

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You know, Savage Worlds deluxe has pretty decent rules for handling chase scenes. I'll try to dig them up. The main issue is that you can't treat a chase like a combat encounter, as the rules for combat movement don't handle running away very well.

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Thanks for all the helpful replies. I remember the IH rules, maybe I try them. I understand and appreciate the experience of people in the forum that actually wielded guns. The heaviest gun I ever wileded was a super soaker back in the early nineties. Waht remains a problem is the use of melee weapons though, but this is slmost another topic. Because charging is only half as fast as running means, that you will never be able to reach* someone of your speed, that is running away (*reaching = hitting/grappling or whatver is needed to stop the opponent). Maybe running as fast as someone fleeing (and reaching his position thereby) should mean you entered melee, so that, when he runs (instead of disengaging) again in his turn, you get a free attack.

 

Speaking as someone who actually trains in historical melee weapons (swords, axes, daggers, etc.), trying to hack at someone while running is a good way to screw yourself over through any number of possible mess-ups-- cutting your own leg, burying your weapon in the dirt, throwing yourself off balance, etc. Trying to use a long sword while sprinting, would be potentially more dangerous to you than your opponent, even with training.

 

You might be able to make it work, with a dagger or with regards to grappling, but with most of the weapons an Acolyte would be using, the Acolyte's as likely to put their sword blade through their knee as through their target.

Edited by ColArana

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Also, don't forget about the Attack of Opportunity when someone disengages from Combat. If you run after someone as a full action, and actually make it to them, even if you can't attack, they can't run away without you getting a free attack on them. AND if they use the Run action to get away, you get a +20 to hit them with your attack

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I agree with Magnus.

And when it comes to Melee fight you have to stop your opponent first to give him a punch. Thats when grappling comes in handy. Grappled characters cannot run and thats what we're aiming for. Id allow players to leap forward to grapple an opponent after succesful Acrobatics Agi or Str test. Thats how it works in real life so why should it be so bad in RPG?

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