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Credible women NPCs for men-GMs

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While I enjoy Mr Miller's novels and his tongue-in-cheek approach to the setting I'd take what he writes with a pinch of salt. I'm pretty sure he had orks using bolters in either the 2nd or 4th book (a throwback to 2nd Edition 40k), so I'd be cautious of declaring all his works canon. Which, of course, is the same caution I'd advise you to apply with any BI novelist.

Anyway, I don't see how this should be an issue. If a player wants to chase after encounters of a sexy nature the Sororitas is the last career he should go for.

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aramis said:

 

 

I'm suddenly reminded of the Jesuit Convent in South America which had a firing range and massive arms cache under the residence.

And of Sr. Ambrose, a Dominican Sister, who could scare US Marine Gunn'y Sergeants.

Bad-ass nuns with guns is probably the most scary religious image most Catholic Youth can conjure. All that repressed sexuality converted into stern discipline and taken out upon the heretic...

As a recovering Catholic, i think I have just been scared back into going to confession.

The Sisters are Chaste, but this is a vow.  So is celibacy.  What does this mean?  It means that while all Sisters are Chaste, they are not all celibate.  And while one may be chaste there is always the chance that a serving, frontline AS will accidentally find someone and voluntarily break her oath in order to fulfill her emotional bond with that person, be they male or female.  This would not preclude them from serving the Ecclisiarchy, but it would mean they would no longer be a front line Battle Sister as she would no longer be quite the same as her comrades.  I would see an Adeptus Sororitas who has chosen the secular over the religious as being a perfect candidate for an Inquisitors retinue.  By accepting a dispensation from her Order she would then be a Sororitas Itineratus (made up latin is fun), or a Itinerant Sister who is considered one of the Sisters, but detached and can only be returned to the actual Ordos Militant by undergoing the path of the Redemptia. 

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Sorry about the delay, it took me forever to get my hands back on the book.  The quote isn't from Cain, it's from Inquisitor Amberly's footnotes.  Page 187

"contrary to popular belief, the Adepta Sororitas doesn't actually require its members to remain celibate, although few find the time to take advantage of the fact.

 

As for Ork bolter rounds, Orks have used bolters in previous editions of the game and shootas, big shootas, etcetera are actually encompass a fairly broad category of weapons.  There's nothing inconsistant with having one shoota be a big assault rifle and another big shoota be a crude, poorly functioning bolter.

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Cynical Cat said:

Sorry about the delay, it took me forever to get my hands back on the book.  The quote isn't from Cain, it's from Inquisitor Amberly's footnotes.  Page 187

"contrary to popular belief, the Adepta Sororitas doesn't actually require its members to remain celibate, although few find the time to take advantage of the fact.

Is this taken from Cain's Last Stand? Because I've read the first five books except that one and im not really sure if i've read the passage or not. Nevertheless, our dear Inquisitor Amberley Vail is always a good source of obscure knowledge about the Imperium.

And considering that any GW hasn't further explained anything as to what chastity actually means to the servants of the Imperium, and the fact that every dictionary answers posted have explicitly stated that chastity can mean several things and doesn't necessarily have to mean celibacy, I think we can pretty much agree upon that Adepta Sororitas aren't required to remain celibate. A Black Library source is always a lot better than simple fan musings.

Also I seem to recall that someone mentioned the whole "Brides of the Emperor" argument before during the discussion. But they were only called Brides of the Emperor durign the tyrannical reign of the heretical High Lord of the Administratum Goge Vandire. Before that, they were known as the "Daughters of the Emperor" (not brides), meaning that the only prevention of them having sex would be their "father's" expected high standards. gran_risa.gif

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Im a huge fan of the sisters, loved them since i saw the pic towards the back of the first edition miniatures rogue trader book soon to become 40k. But from every single peice of canon information, when you become a member of the adeptus sororitas it is your life you live and breath the life, you follow the laws you do the training its a strict life. They dont call them THE DAUGHTERS OF THE EMPEROR for nothing, they were told the secrets, they hold the sacred trusts, they are the trusted, their life is their job.

They dont have time to take off to have a child, and sexual intercourse certainly wouldnt be seen as important compared to their training, and each day saving the souls of the many citizens of the imperium, they dont have time for such frivolous activities, their dedication is to the emperor and the imperium their life is strict, as the universe is harsh and minor distractions do  not play a part in their lives, they give up all worldy things to serve, as to serve is their life and no greater thing can you do with your life than serve, he in which all good things come from, and he who whatches over us and saves our souls from the unclean, the heretic, the ruinous powers.

I never trust anything that comes from some author, its not canon, its not written by the creators, its written by someone who writes a novel to entertain you and who's only right is that they got the permission to use the name of game, and write about the subject matter, you can can read a ton of these novels they all conflict with each other, and alot conflict with canon, it may sound fun in the novel and be happily explained away in the setting of the novel the reality of the situation is set out in many other authorised texts that say different, just because in our reality many what they would call deviant actions happens, and were overlooked for concvenience, sometimes not but many times yes.

The Imperium is another matter, you break a rule your punished, they have armies that exterminate worlds even if semi infected rather than saving the ones that could be saved they will kill them all just to be safe and not lose sleep over it, there is nothing cute cuddly or fuzzy about the imperium, its far from a holiday resort, not a place id enjoy visiting soon.

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I'd like to raise the religious aspect of the issue and I'm quite convinced that a huge majority of Sisters are chaste and celibate for reasons that have nothing to do with what is allowed to their specific order and what is not.

The point is that the whole Cult of Emperor is a religion of sacrifice. The Emperor himself is a half-living example of sacrificing everything to one sole purpose. Everyone in Imperium is indoctrinated to sacrifice things for greater cause. Most inhabitants sacrifice their time, their work, their dreams, their health and, ultimately, their life. The most devout sacrifice their humanity.

The Imperial Adepts are used to believing that in the end the most dedicated will prevail and the extend of your dedication is judged by how much you are willing to sacrifice. Thus, a sister joining Adeptus Sororitas is expected to sacrifice things to prove her dedication. Most of them gladly sacrifice all of their mortal property, living in life of poverty, supported only by their Order. Most also sacrifice their families and friendships, cutting all previous ties. All of them are expected to sacrifice every waking hour of their life to service. Vows of chastity and celibacy come easy in these circumstances.

You might want to notice that I'm not saying sex would be illegal to Sister. The whole Imperial Cult does not support the concept of "Sin" well. There are, after all, very few things that are defined as absolute evils in Imperium. Murder, mayhem, torture, cannibalism and pretty much all other forms of depraved actions have been done in the name and full acceptance of Imperial Cult. Aside from worshipping Ruinous Powers or starting a rebellion against Imperial rule very little is actually "illegal" to an Adept. What is expected is whole another thing. And what is expected will have huge power over what people do and do not do.

You can compare Adepta Sororitas vows of chastity and celibacy to modern office dress code. When you go to work in office they don't necessarily tell you to dress in suit. They don't usually write it down in work contract. Yet, everyone expects you to show up in nice, clean and fitting suit and 99,9% of the population think it is required. The 0,1% that show up in ripped jeans and sneakers cannot actually be legally kicked out for that alone, but they still might find their career coming to abrupt stop even before starting.

Same, I think, goes for Sisters. Most of them make vows of chastity and celibacy because it is widely expected of them and it is actually a pretty easy sacrifice to make once you already spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week in tighty-knit, female-only combat unit with absolutely no free time seen anywhere in radius of several light years. Some of them do not make the vows. This can be seen as being less dedicated than others and, ultimately, lead to others expecting that you prove your dedication in more extreme way... like joining Sisters Repentia or subjecting yourself to Arco-Flagellation. Some of them might be eternal rebels, refuse all offered ways to repent and get assigned to schooling half-feral brats in some back-water school with not a single male human on the whole planet.

 

 

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I have to admit, I'm somewhat appalled to see the majority of this thread seems to be dedicated to sex. It actually speaks to one of the reasons generally stated for male GMs (or players) being unable to play credible female characters. The worst examples are male players/GMs who play women as over-sexed nymphomaniacs or frigid sexually repressed nymphomaniacs-in-waiting.

As a male GM who has played credible female characters, let me give you a tip: women are people, with their own complex goals and motivations, just like men.
 

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Cynical Cat said:

My point about chastity  is that it's definition varies according to use and context.   My point, which is not disproven, the use of the word "chastity" does not mean when they're required to be celibate and when the existing supporting evidence says they aren't (Cain), then they clearly aren't.  Now that doesn't mean that some aren't celibate or that they're aren't rules governing their sexual conduct (I imagine things like adultery and association with any but loyal Imperial servants are out, among other things), but it does mean that some of them do have sex lives.

To make things more complicated, the rules undoubtedly vary somewhat from order to order. 

Well, if the Ecclesiarchy manages to convince a majority of the BS thatsex is sinful, degrading and disgusting, it doesn't need to forbid the BS from getting sex. They just won't do it (or at least, their will be an overwhelming majority of sexually-repressed BS that will generate enough societal pressure rto push the sexually-active minority into hiding it).

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I personally find it interesting that a thread based on male GMs portraying female NPCs has almost entirely devolved into "can Sororitas have sex, and if so then how slutty are they?"  Rather embarrasing moment for my gender as a whole here, really.

Since it seems to be the revised topic though I may as well toss in my 2 thrones.   By **** near every source avaialable the Adepta Sororitas have vows of chastity and are very much the embodyment of "fanatical warrior-nuns".  This of course does not prevent them from having unique and distinctive personalities, motivations and drives.  Some of them might strugle with sexual thoughts, others would barely recognize the concept if it was staring them in the face.  What it DOES imply is that actually acting on such thoughts would be a severe failing should her fellow Sisters ever learn of it.  Even if she managed to keep such a thing secret it would most likely weigh heavily on her soul, and her fellows WOULD notice that she is troubled by something.  The Warhammer universe is largely about self-sacrifice for a greater cause.  In the case of the Sororitas they sacrifice the possibility of a "normal and romantically fulfilling life" in exchange for direct service in the Emperor's name.  Please make note of the Denounced and Condemned or Penitent background packages in the Radical's Handbook.  It is not unknown for Sisters to fall from grace, but it is indeed a FALL and has substantial consequences:  The Sisters are not known for forgiveness.

On the flipside, there is nothing that I am aware of (and I have been a 40K otaku since the original Rogue Trader days and even have some of the original minis floating around somewhere) that states that a CLERIC is required to take oaths of chastity.  Merely oaths of service to He Who Dwells on the Golden Throne.  Nothing wrong with playing a chaste Cleric if that fits the character, but it is not a defining trait for the job.

One question though:  If a character concept really is built on "how much raunchy sex can my character have" then why a Sister instead of a Scum? If the answer is "But I am a ***** with a BOLTER!" then the character concept fails miserably.  There is no reason to leave sexuality out of a DH game unless the players are being silly about it, in which case perhaps they need to go back to D&D for a while.  I know that the overall RP in my game has benefited from an interesting mix of characters with varried and sometimes conflicting sexual issues but I like to think I run a mature game.  The themes in the 40K universe more or less require a baseline maturity level. 

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ZillaPrime said:

I personally find it interesting that a thread based on male GMs portraying female NPCs has almost entirely devolved into "can Sororitas have sex, and if so then how slutty are they?"  Rather embarrasing moment for my gender as a whole here, really.

Trying to score some points with the ladies by betraying the Brotherhood of the Phallus, eh ? gran_risa.gif Well, intentions aside, I don't think I would use the word 'devolution' as the first post introduced the question of the Sisters having sex, which question seemed more worthy of my attention than the one about the ability of male GM to portray female NPCs (and I'm not the only one, apparently). So, it may be that we all are chauvinistic pigs drooling over the possibility of a sexually-active space nun with a boltgun or it may be that most of us actually met women once and thus have little or no difficulty portraying female NPCs. I'm inclined to believe in the latter but I'm partial... 

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ZillaPrime said:

If the answer is "But I am a ***** with a BOLTER!" then the character concept fails miserably. 

Amusingly, this topic has actually come at my gaming table. My wife wanted to play a Sister Hospitaler based on the character concept of the Companion from the show Firefly... essentially a high class courtesan, with a bolter (though she never got better than an autogun).

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Wait, wait, wait.

So, this thread went from trying to find a way to make credible female NPCs for male GMs to play out for their games to a debate about weather or not Sisters of battle do or do not have sex, to a guy who's actually in the Anglican church debating with some other guys with a loose understanding on religious orders about drinking, the Imperial Cult, and how much it reflects real world religion in an attempt to pin down weather or not a bunch of fictional nuns with guns IN SPAAAAAAAACE **** in their spare time or not?

Really, people? Really?!

Is this how most topics in the GM sub-forum go down or what?

Oh! almost forgot, are SPHESS MARHEENS! fags or not? good god I need a drink... and a small handgun or something.

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...  Yeah I had a difficult time following the thread also...   but it was an interesting read.  lengua.gif

 

I'll be the first to admit.  I have a terrible time creating a believable male character or NPC.  I have no idea how to think like a man.  Every attempt I make I usually come off as being to aggressive or not aggressive enough.  Either my male characters behave like boorish stooges or eye watering paladins.  I run into lots of trouble when I actively try to behave in what I think is 'manly' behavior.  In doing so I fail miserably because I have to call up all of my notions of what I think a man is...  which, as a woman, is friggin impossible.  lengua.gif

So what I do is I just play...  I don't think about what's dangling in the neither regions, I just play.  If my male character seems a little feminine...  Tough cookies, that's his character.

My advise to the gentlemen who genuinely wish to play a believable female NPC or character is to forget about all the idiotic feminist literature you may have read or listened to from your sisters/mothers/girlfriends/wives.  Just play the character.  Forget about her gender and do what you think the character would do...  Not the character, THE GIRL, would do.  If your girl comes off a little overly aggressive or manly, who cares.  Woman can be just as crass and shallow or noble and self sacrificing as any other guy out there...  The only difference is they have to sit when they tinkle.

 

OFF TOPIC:  I did enjoy reading the stuff about the Space Marines and Sororitas concerning sex.  If the context would help, I'd say for Space Marines for people to look up early Bushido warrior culture in Japan.  Most notably their attitudes on woman and sex.  It's really quite interesting and puts the whole Space Marine question into a different sort of light.

For the Sororitas, my opinion of their encounters would be on the meaning behind the act.  If you see the act as nothing more than beasts rutting to feel good then absolutely not.  But if the context of the act is something seen as spiritual or even a sort of service I wouldn't think it would go against their vows (or whatever) they take.  Perhaps the Sororitas in question has a deep respect and adoration for a certain member of the Ecclesiarchy and values the comfort she can give to this person in this way.  She isn't pining away lusting for them, she genuinely values their comfort and ease as a way to show her appreciation for their many sacrifices.  And perhaps this other person feels the same toward the Sororitas.   Of course, given their rigorous lifestyles, the chances to engage in such an act would be very rare.  Not exactly playing musical bedchambers.  lengua.gif

 

ALSO OFF TOPIC:  Do people in the 40K century even take vows of marriage still?  Or is it more of a contract sort of deal or just a spoken thing?

 

ALSO WAAAAAY OFF TOPIC AND TONGUE AND CHEEK:  I absolutely hate the way woman are depicted in armor in fantasy type games.  I mean honestly.  Who puts boob bumps in armor?  This is just a fantasy artists' homage to Luis Royo.  Most woman who wore armor wore the same stuff men wore except they also wore girdles around their chests.  Seriously.  You don't see female police women wearing kevlar with two pronounced boob bumps on them. lengua.gif  I won't even go into the whole exposed mid-rift thing... 

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G'ah!

Procreation is for the peasantry, not the clergy.

The S&M boots and nipple spikes are from the imagination of the game designers and artists, who are mostly male. Even if they created a cult of abstinent nuns, they'd still make them look hot in the visuals.

Geez is it THAT complicated?

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Yui 56 said:

 

ALSO WAAAAAY OFF TOPIC AND TONGUE AND CHEEK:  I absolutely hate the way woman are depicted in armor in fantasy type games.  I mean honestly.  Who puts boob bumps in armor?  This is just a fantasy artists' homage to Luis Royo.  Most woman who wore armor wore the same stuff men wore except they also wore girdles around their chests.  Seriously.  You don't see female police women wearing kevlar with two pronounced boob bumps on them. lengua.gif  I won't even go into the whole exposed mid-rift thing... 

 

 

Well, most police officers you'll ever see wear so-called "soft" body armor which acts pretty much like a very thick, form-fitting cloth. So its like wearing a thick overcoat thats a few sizes too small. However, when you want to use "rigid" body armor made of ceramics and steel it tends to get a bit uncomfortable to fit that tightly around you and then you actually might like having at least some sort of "bumps" in the armor.

Yes, I do work in heavily armed law-enforcement agency. Yes, we have women serving here. Yes, the subject has come up. Yes, proper female-model ceramic and metal plates *are* commercially available. No, our government hasn't actually got around to actually financing them so the women just use male-model XL size vests and end up looking like turtles. Its not the best solution as extra-large vests hinder movement but its still better than not having that ceramic plate between bullet and you.

As for the stuff visual directors go for... Well, I think they undrestood the concept of "fantasy" game a bit wrong ;) 

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Polaria said:

Yui 56 said:

 

ALSO WAAAAAY OFF TOPIC AND TONGUE AND CHEEK:  I absolutely hate the way woman are depicted in armor in fantasy type games.  I mean honestly.  Who puts boob bumps in armor?  This is just a fantasy artists' homage to Luis Royo.  Most woman who wore armor wore the same stuff men wore except they also wore girdles around their chests.  Seriously.  You don't see female police women wearing kevlar with two pronounced boob bumps on them. lengua.gif  I won't even go into the whole exposed mid-rift thing... 

 

 

Well, most police officers you'll ever see wear so-called "soft" body armor which acts pretty much like a very thick, form-fitting cloth. So its like wearing a thick overcoat thats a few sizes too small. However, when you want to use "rigid" body armor made of ceramics and steel it tends to get a bit uncomfortable to fit that tightly around you and then you actually might like having at least some sort of "bumps" in the armor.

Yes, I do work in heavily armed law-enforcement agency. Yes, we have women serving here. Yes, the subject has come up. Yes, proper female-model ceramic and metal plates *are* commercially available. No, our government hasn't actually got around to actually financing them so the women we just use male-model XL size vests and end up looking like turtles. Its not the best solution as extra-large vests hinder movement but its still better than not having that ceramic plate between bullet and you.

As for the stuff visual directors go for... Well, I think they undrestood the concept of "fantasy" game a bit wrong ;) 

Priceless.  gran_risa.gifpartido_risa.gif

And, quite liberally enlightening.  Thank you, ladies.  This just goes to show why we need more girls in the realm of role-playing.  gui%C3%B1o.gif

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Sister Cat said:

And, quite liberally enlightening.  Thank you, ladies.  This just goes to show why we need more girls in the realm of role-playing.  gui%C3%B1o.gif

Totally agreed.  I still have physical evidence of my old gaming group (from way back before living in Arizona) that had a very strong female representation in the mix:   My "Sailor Moon" dicebag that they bought for me as a joke.  sonrojado.gif   I still use the thing...

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Yui 56 said:

...  Yeah I had a difficult time following the thread also...   but it was an interesting read.  lengua.gif

 

I'll be the first to admit.  I have a terrible time creating a believable male character or NPC.  I have no idea how to think like a man.  Every attempt I make I usually come off as being to aggressive or not aggressive enough.  Either my male characters behave like boorish stooges or eye watering paladins.  I run into lots of trouble when I actively try to behave in what I think is 'manly' behavior.  In doing so I fail miserably because I have to call up all of my notions of what I think a man is...  which, as a woman, is friggin impossible.  lengua.gif

So what I do is I just play...  I don't think about what's dangling in the neither regions, I just play.  If my male character seems a little feminine...  Tough cookies, that's his character.

My advise to the gentlemen who genuinely wish to play a believable female NPC or character is to forget about all the idiotic feminist literature you may have read or listened to from your sisters/mothers/girlfriends/wives.  Just play the character.  Forget about her gender and do what you think the character would do...  Not the character, THE GIRL, would do.  If your girl comes off a little overly aggressive or manly, who cares.  Woman can be just as crass and shallow or noble and self sacrificing as any other guy out there...  The only difference is they have to sit when they tinkle.

 

Drink Whiskey, lots of it, instant male-mindedness! :D

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I'm not sure if these points have come up yet, so I'll try to be brief.

Procreation and a sex life (ie. enjoyment thereof) are perfectly separable, even if only through uncomfortable paraphernalia that makes sex anything but fun. Since carnal pleasure is the path to Slaanesh, such devices might well see widespread use in zealous circles.

Considering that the Imperium requires a constant supply of fresh bodies to feed its war machine, and that the human form is sacred, I'd consider it a credible course of action for Adepta Sororitas to procreate. Such procreation, and the strict rituals that lead up to it, could be considered a sacrament. Outside these rituals (where the male could possibly act as the Emperor's proxy, delivering Throne-blessed seed) I don't see Sororitas engaging in sexual behaviour that wouldn't be considered a sin (doesn't mean they don't do it anyway...).

In summary: no sex, only procreation under orders.

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Since carnal pleasure is the path to Slaanesh, such devices might well see widespread use in zealous circles.


It isn't the path to Slaanesh. It is certainly a pathway, but not the only one. The real path to Slaanesh is any and all experiences taken in excess. Slaanesh isn't the Chaos God of Multiple Orgasms, Slaanesh is the Chaos God of Excess - the Chaos God who wants anything and everything all the time constantly to limitless levels (and thus, the complete opposite of Khorne, who is all about focusing on a single aspect and mastering it, in his case, killing and bloodletting).

Anyway, wasn't this thread about credible NPC's?

My campaign has three female NPC's - Syara Xan, who's very much the Alpha Female, tends to talk down to most men, but respects her superiors without question, and then two Death Cult Assassins who are... well... very much like Death Cult Assassins would be. happy.gif

BYE

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H.B.M.C. said:

MuadMouse said:

Since carnal pleasure is the path to Slaanesh, such devices might well see widespread use in zealous circles.


It isn't the path to Slaanesh. It is certainly a pathway, but not the only one. The real path to Slaanesh is any and all experiences taken in excess. Slaanesh isn't the Chaos God of Multiple Orgasms, 

Yeah, I've a character shooting for Emperial Saint of the Holy Multiple Orgasm ... it's an uphill battle.

Seriously, though, I've had many female players in my games over the years and seen them portray women in a vast many ways, so there isn't one right or wrong way to go about it.  Keep in mind that women generally seek and give empathy rather than try to provide solutions for every situation the way men do; women usually prefer to talk about their problems with people they feel connected to, where men rarely talk about their problems and if so only to one or two other people; women are better and sniping one another while playing polite, while men aren't as good at hiding - or trying to hide - their animosity; for women sex is often part of a package deal, for men it is usually the endgame; women want understanding, men want action.  This is typically what you'll get from a book on male vs female personality types, though obviously that makes these generalities, not all encompassing truths.  

Carnal pleasure in general is not going to make you a Slaanesh whorshipper, or corrupted servant of the Lascivious One - sex is pleasurable as a way of insuring people do it to procreate.  It is when that pleasure and the pursuit of it become out of control, when hedonism and perversity become a way of life that one need fear the attentions of the Insatiable Lord.  

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Jack of Tears said:

Seriously, though, I've had many female players in my games over the years and seen them portray women in a vast many ways, so there isn't one right or wrong way to go about it.  Keep in mind that women generally seek and give empathy rather than try to provide solutions for every situation the way men do; women usually prefer to talk about their problems with people they feel connected to, where men rarely talk about their problems and if so only to one or two other people; women are better and sniping one another while playing polite, while men aren't as good at hiding - or trying to hide - their animosity; for women sex is often part of a package deal, for men it is usually the endgame; women want understanding, men want action.  This is typically what you'll get from a book on male vs female personality types, though obviously that makes these generalities, not all encompassing truths.  

Well, my wife plays in my games and her characters tend to be silent, antisocial avengers with a traumatic past who express their repressed sexuality through violence and murder. Well, for DH she seems to be trying to keep out of this mindset and go instead for a (male) repentant pedophile priest with a date-**** habit and misogynic tendencies. So much for empathy...

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Kyorou said:

 

Well, my wife plays in my games and her characters tend to be silent, antisocial avengers with a traumatic past who express their repressed sexuality through violence and murder. Well, for DH she seems to be trying to keep out of this mindset and go instead for a (male) repentant pedophile priest with a date-**** habit and misogynic tendencies. So much for empathy...

Well, like I said it is a generality, plus this is roleplaying, wherein one isn't going to always be playing to the norm.  The current female player in games tends to play the bloodthirsty, sadistic, asocial types -  the characters female gamers portray aren't generally going to run to the typical female behavior in the setting ... pcs, by their nature after all, are uncommon individuals.  

 

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