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bonehead3

Credible women NPCs for men-GMs

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There have been some interesting discussion concerning trouble men-GMs may have with portraying psychologically credible NPCs in 40k universe.

Since some forumites do not like derailing a tread (unlike Yours truly) I start new tread in GM zone.

@Bogi_Khaosa and Shadowkat: the problem with my girtl-only-gang is that they are mostly refugees from temporal war zone between 2 hive-cities and many of those girls experienced violence from soldiers from one or other side of conflict (I do not have meddle in details anymore, do I?).That also creates question - wouldn't that specific gang (they're called Rhizans) be reluctant toward some ganger-typicall income and focus on some work not typical for hive-scum? Another problem I have is how to create AS Diologous that is not only devoted preacher but a woman with her needs (I don't think that so valuable DNA set could be thrown away for celibacy with all that mumbling about sancity of human form) and a social creature (with any other personality she propably wouldn't got assigned to praeching nobility).In other words - pious woman to the core but not dull!

@Varnias_Tybalt: challenges modern neurology have is one thing, conclusion that something so important as Your sex (no matter witch) must have comlex and deep influence over most of Your life is something different.

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bonehead said:

Another problem I have is how to create AS Diologous that is not only devoted preacher but a woman with her needs (I don't think that so valuable DNA set could be thrown away for celibacy with all that mumbling about sancity of human form)

I guess you're thinking of the "chaste" aspect mentioned about the Adepta Sororitas. I've also found it a bit strange and contradicting to other mentions of the Imperial Creed. I mean the Imperial Creed seems to encourage procreation (after all, the black ships need to pick up psykers, and every planet needs to raise guardsmen to defend the Imperium) and give divine praise to the human form.

So in that regard im not entirely sure that when Imperials speak of being chaste, not all of them necessarily mean that one should give up sex or procreation, but rather being chaste in a more spirutal and intellectual sense. So procreation isnt necessarily forbidden for the Adepta Sororitas (obviously depending on which order we're talking about, the Imperium and its factions are, as always, diverse in the extreme), however im sure that Sororitas would be perfectly clear that sex isnt something that you should engage in for pleasure or such mundane reasons as love or lust, but rather as a mean to provide the Emperor with more devout servants in the form of ones own children. In that sense being "chaste" in mind even while having sex.

However, having sex because of the "need" to feel pleasure would probably not sit well with most Sororitas, and you can be sure that any Canoness in any order would punish a low ranking sister if she is found out enjoying carnal delights. Probably delivering a plattitude like "carnal pleasures leads to the ruinous powers" or something similar along with the punishment.

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Yes, You have pinned it, kind sir and better then I could, probably.

The problem occured to me when I was reading Your post: every person with even medieval type education (and a Schola Progenium should be better) would realise that need for sexual intercourse (without procreation) is not so different than need for rest, food etc and denial of the former can cause psychological traumas.Mind You, SP is working quite well for over 5 thousands years so the teachers must have come up with some effective modus opperandi in this matter long ago, or it's brittish private schools for boys (or girls) in space - somebody mentioned S&M in this discussion before...

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bonehead said:

Yes, You have pinned it, kind sir and better then I could, probably.

The problem occured to me when I was reading Your post: every person with even medieval type education (and a Schola Progenium should be better) would realise that need for sexual intercourse (without procreation) is not so different than need for rest, food etc and denial of the former can cause psychological traumas.Mind You, SP is working quite well for over 5 thousands years so the teachers must have come up with some effective modus opperandi in this matter long ago, or it's brittish private schools for boys (or girls) in space - somebody mentioned S&M in this discussion before...

The S&M wouldnt be a far fetch. I mean just look at the Sisters Repentia and that lavish whip their leader uses. And the eventual psychological traumas that an Adepta Sororitas might suffer from lack of intercourse (well, I wouldn't go as far as saying one would suffer a trauma from it, but still) is something that the Adepta Sororitas would probably shape into a useful anger in its Battle Sisters.

In that regard, I think that the few members of the Adepta Sororitas that are really promoting sexual abstinence, then it would be the more militant branches, their Clerics probably preaching that any such feelings should be disregarded and shaped into hatred against the enemies of mankind instead. After all, if a person dont take out their passions in a sexual way, they could be passionate in a violent way instead. Which would certainly fit the Battle Sisters purpose.

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Chaste is a fairly explicit term. It means not having sex outside of marriage. (Celibate means not being married.)

There are a great many examples of women's religious orders that are chaste and celibate, with very little evidence of rampant sexual desire.

These chaste orders exist in Christianity, Graeco-Roman paganism, Buddhism, and even Norse paganism. There are also rumors that some of them were bastions of homosexuality, but in many cases there is little reliable evidence for that.

To me, the Sisters of Battle are, exactly as presented, replacing the maternal drive's focus on children with protecting all humanity. Most of them are genuinely chaste and celibate. They sublimate the reproductive drive, if present, into their work, just like the vast majority of Catholic, Orthodox, and Buddhist nuns.

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Ok I was just skimming here and its late so I cant be bothered reading everything but I thought I would bring this up since Varnias Tybalt mentioned it.

Ciaphas Cain Spoilers

In the latest Ciaphas Cain book there is in fact a member of the Adeptus Sororitas who has sex on a regualar basis, she is retired from front line combat to teach initiates at a Schola Progenium school. When Cain finds out he is surprised but it is noted that while its not forbidden for members of the Sororitas to have sex they usually dont have the time to go about finding someone as their daily lives are filled with duty. Obviously the situation at the Schola was more relaxed than a sisters convent and the Sister in question was in much more contact with men than your regular sororitas so a relationship was able to develope.

I know Ciaphas Cain isnt always the best source of background but it does cover an area that is previously not covered really in the background. Anyway sorry if this is totally off topic or makes no sense but im tired.

Kaihlik

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How big on "follow the rules" is Caiphus? If not very, his surprise probably indicates "it's illicit"... if he's big on rules, then it probably indicates it's permitted.

One other thing: not all sisters are in Ordos Militant; the celibate reference is in the IH entry, and in the 40K codex I've got.

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aramis said:

One other thing: not all sisters are in Ordos Militant; the celibate reference is in the IH entry, and in the 40K codex I've got.

Indeed. I mean, keeping themselves away from sex would certainly make sense for the battle sisters (for reasons I've already explained) but the Diologus and Hospitalier branches have no particular reasons not to procreate. They're not militant so they have no battlefield related reasons to stay away from sexual intercourse.

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Except if the orders see themselves as "brides of the Emperor", in which case they certainly do. (Most modern Catholic orders of sisters and nuns consider themselves brides of Christ, so it's not without obvious precedent.)

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Varnias Tybalt said:

aramis said:

 

One other thing: not all sisters are in Ordos Militant; the celibate reference is in the IH entry, and in the 40K codex I've got.

 

 

Indeed. I mean, keeping themselves away from sex would certainly make sense for the battle sisters (for reasons I've already explained) but the Diologus and Hospitalier branches have no particular reasons not to procreate. They're not militant so they have no battlefield related reasons to stay away from sexual intercourse.

No battlefield reason? Are they not fighting a war against corruption and heresy on many fronts with many weapons and not just the bolter and flammer? Wouldn't becoming carnally involved distract and potentially skew the perspective of a Diologus? Would indulgence in the carnal in all branches distract the sisters mind form the duty she is to preform?

@aramis, I think, but may be wrong, but the sisters are "daughters of the Emperor" not "brides"

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aramis said:

Except if the orders see themselves as "brides of the Emperor", in which case they certainly do. (Most modern Catholic orders of sisters and nuns consider themselves brides of Christ, so it's not without obvious precedent.)

True, but then again do we really know what the Imperial Creed have to say about sexual intercourse out of wedlock? I cant really say that I've read much about how marriage in the forty-first millenium works, or the do's and dont's in an Imperial marriage between Ecclesiarchys subjects (like Clerics and Adepta Sororitas).

I mean, for all the AS care if they use sex for procreation they'd still probably consider themselves brides of the emperor. The man they have intercourse with only serving as means to an end in producing more servants for the Emperor. And after all, isnt the Emperor the father of all Mankind anyway? gran_risa.gif

Mind boggling theological speculation, but its pretty fun if I may say so.

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Graver said:

 

 

Wouldn't becoming carnally involved distract and potentially skew the perspective of a Diologus?

Wouldn't becoming carnally involved distract and potentially skew the perspective of an Inquisitor in the same way then?

But still Inquisitors seldom give up their sexlife... Unless they have to of course (perhaps being cybernetically resurrected or suffering damage in the line of duty might incapacitate their ability to even be carnally involved with anyone). gran_risa.gif

 

 

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Varnias Tybalt said:

Graver said:

Wouldn't becoming carnally involved distract and potentially skew the perspective of a Diologus?

 

 

Wouldn't becoming carnally involved distract and potentially skew the perspective of an Inquisitor in the same way then?

But still Inquisitors seldom give up their sexlife... Unless they have to of course (perhaps being cybernetically resurrected or suffering damage in the line of duty might incapacitate their ability to even be carnally involved with anyone). gran_risa.gif

The exact wording in Inquisitor's Handbook is fairly clear.

Inquisitor's Handbook p.41 reads:

Adepta Sororitas are courageous, pious, self-sacraficing, chaste, and faithful. They are fanatics, bound by harsh and restrictive religious oaths and ingrained zealotry.

Chaste is a fairly explicit.  Fanatic exacerbates that.

Given that the model for the various ogranizations in 40K seems to be based upon medieval europe, substituting the emperor for Christ in the role of the visible godhead. (It's actually a pretty cool allegory, and very tightly woven.) Therefore the clerics are likely to be fairly close models off of the medieval clergy: professed religious were celibate and chaste in order to devote their waking time to prayer and their tasks; local minor clerics could be married, even some priests, but the majority of priests were celibate and chaste. With the notable exception of a certain run of popes, most of them also were chaste...

So extrapolating that to 40K is probably reasonable, especially given the quite obvious similarities.

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What's more, I wouldn't imagine that the quasi-medieval religious values of the Imperium are particularly encouraging of extra-marital sex. More likely, like most conservative modern institutions, the Ecclesiarchy would stress marriage, followed by lots and lots of sex. This model being much like that of the Catholic Church, for example. In this way, the system is promoting both stability, health, and procreation. The actual values of Imperial culture outside of the creed of the ecclesiarchy would probably vary wildly.  But sex for simple pleasure would probably be frowned upon given that it is a religious society which, in theory, disdains as vanity any human activity not associated with directly supporting The State and its intitutions.

As far as Sororitas having sex...hmmm...I think its a rather strange idea given the source material : Catholic female Orders and historical personages like Joan of Arc...These were all members of a celebate religious societies (notwithstanding Joan of Arc). Adeptus Sororitas are literally bad-ass Nuns-With-Guns --a rather frightening concept for anyone who grew up in a Catholic Parochial School (as I can personally attest). The idea of them sleeping around, dealing with pregnancy/venerial disease/etc without interrupting their sworn duties seems unlikely, even slightly comic.

A sister may stray, that much is true, but that is all.

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Nullius said:

As far as Sororitas having sex...hmmm...I think its a rather strange idea given the source material : Catholic female Orders and historical personages like Joan of Arc...These were all members of a celebate religious societies (notwithstanding Joan of Arc). Adeptus Sororitas are literally bad-ass Nuns-With-Guns --a rather frightening concept for anyone who grew up in a Catholic Parochial School (as I can personally attest). The idea of them sleeping around, dealing with pregnancy/venerial disease/etc without interrupting their sworn duties seems unlikely, even slightly comic.

A sister may stray, that much is true, but that is all.

I'm suddenly reminded of the Jesuit Convent in South America which had a firing range and massive arms cache under the residence.

And of Sr. Ambrose, a Dominican Sister, who could scare US Marine Gunn'y Sergeants.

Bad-ass nuns with guns is probably the most scary religious image most Catholic Youth can conjure. All that repressed sexuality converted into stern discipline and taken out upon the heretic...

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My Elementary School Priciple was a squat, broad-shouldered linebacker of a Dominican Nun with close cropped hair and a face like a bulldog. She spoke little, she had a grim sense of humor, and she terrified the children. She was awesome. Its never been much of strech for me to imagine her in a power-armour/boltgun combo, 'disciplining' the enemies of mankind. She'd make a hell of a Canoness.

 

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Caiphas himself isn't big on rules but he was really just surprised because he hadn't thought of that person having sex, being a sororitas. For those unfamiliar with the Caiphas Cain books they take the form of Cains personal journal that has been found after his death and annotated by an Inquisitor that Cain knew personally (and intimately). I dont have the book on me at the moment as I've leant it so a friend but either Cain or more likely the Inquisitor notes that its not forbidden just not common for sororitas to have sex and I think it also notes that most sisters take vows of celibacy but again I cant be sure.

Anyway I hope thats of some help, if I can get a hold of the book then Ill let you know what it says.

Kaihlik

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Kaihlik said:

Caiphas himself isn't big on rules but he was really just surprised because he hadn't thought of that person having sex, being a sororitas.

That's a huge help. It implies it to be illicit, but not in a way Caiphas cares to call her on, and/or he isn't certain himself it's a heresy.

He could, of course, also be holding it as a bit of blackmail for later, too...

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To be honest, the person's gender rarely even enters my head when creating an NPC (or PC). I mean, look at it this way.

You are pulled over by a cop, er, Arbite. He or she accuses you of drunk driving, er, consorting with heretics and demands that you get out of the car. 

Is the person's gender going to make a difference?

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I tend to agree with Aramis here. Caiaphas Cain notwithstanding, the obvious model for the Sororitas is Catholic religious orders which are celibate. I see the fact that you have women who have taken vows committing them to celibacy as an expression of devotion to the Emperor as being completely realistic (similar organisations exist in the real world) and in no way contradicting tenets of Imperial Creed regarding the importance of procreation and sanctity of the human form, just as the existence of Catholic celibate orders does not contradict similar teaching on the part of the Catholic Church. You can uphold the importance of procreation without believing that all are called to it. And denial of basic biological needs is so clearly written into the Sororitas way of life that to be honest I think any view of them as being non-celibate needs a lot of justifying to show how such a lifestyle is consistent with being part of a sisterhood that prides itself on fanatical devotion to the Emperor that for at least some of them goes as far as being expressed in self mortification. Celibacy is nothing to do with pragmatic considerations of distraction on the battlefield and everything to do with being part of a way of life that is based on self-denial.

Now how that actually impacts a woman within the Sororitas who obviously is a sexual being with normal needs is an entirely different question. To be honest, I find the contrast between normal human needs and highly restrictive social systems afford far more interesting and rich opportunities for roleplaying than assuming that the structures have made pragmatic concessions to meet human needs and desires. I suspect that most Sororitas - raised in Schola (and therefore having always lived in community, not having been exposed to 'normal' family life in any shape or form) are encouraged not to see themselves as sexual beings at all, and sublimate their sexual desire into their acts of service, whether that be violence, healing, or whatever. Given normal Sororitas attire, however, and an apparent institutionalisation of various disciplinary methods that verge on S&M, it's probably accurate to see at least some of the Sororitas as essentially in denial about the highly sexualised nature of their order, even if it is never expressed in actual intercourse. It's not unreasonable to assume that some Sororitas find some sort of sexual fulfillment through forms of sadomasochistic practice, even if they would deny that is its intention, seeing it as expressing their religious devotion. Some may have intense lesbian relationships (there likely being little opportunity for heterosexual relationships to develop as most Sororitas seem to live in relatively enclosed Orders), though it would probably be rare for such relationships to be expressed in sexual activity, as this would be viewed as a sinful lapse into indulgence of bodily pleasures. They may in fact not be understood even by those involved in them as being sexual relationships, just close and supportive friendships. It's also not unreasonable to see many of them as being extremely sexually frustrated (though likely not being able or willing to explain it in those terms) and channelling all that energy into chastising the unrighteous.

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No it specifically says there is really no problem with it as far as rules go he just didn't think about it because its not something you normally think about when you think of Sororitas. Also the person she was in a relationship was a surprise.

Just because they are losely based on Catholic nuns does not in fact mean that they follow all of the rules of Catholic nuns and the Imperial Creed has a totally different set of standards to Christianity. As I said I think it mentiones the fact that most Soroitas take vows of Celibacy but it isnt a required oath to take. That would mean that if you were to make a sweeping statement about soroitas like it does in say the Inquisitors Handbook then you might just generalise and say they are chaste. Aside from that most Sororitas dont even have the chance to have sex because they spend all of their time in devotions to the Emperor or fulfilling thier duty and there is a good chance most of them wouldn't want to as the might see it as a distraction from thier duties and their faith.

I am definetly not saying it is common and the individual in Ciaphas Cain was definetly protrayed as the exception rather than the rule as she had very rare circumstances and was in fact mostly retired. All I am saying is that it is not forbidden. In fact in another Caiphas Cain book there was a different group of sisters who seemed scornful of anyone who didn't show the same level of devotion to the Emperor as them and lived in a hard to reach monistary where I very much doubt anyone had sex.

Kaihlik

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I think some of fellow forumites forget that there is a tangible difference in way of life of Ordos Militant and members of other Ordos.

While the former are either training in secluded monasteries, meeting almost no one but other militant AS or are fighting enemies of Emperor,the latter (both Hospitallers and Diologous) will be, by very nature of their work, envolved in affairs of non-AS people, quite often humans that don't hold any respect for ecclesiarchy, AS faith (eg. nobles, IG troopers, AdMech, ), or even the Big E himself (pennal legionaires, human pagans outside of IoM space, possibly castaways from Imperial society that are seen as a veluable resource for some reason).

Both H and D branches of AS will be exposed to behaviour different, possibly more self-indulging, than anything they've seen in monasteries, not to mention plausible chance for work romance with someone they can't stop working with out of necessity (devout cleric, perceptive arbitrator, smart adept etc.).  

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Bonehead is right.

I wonder how many people here have had experience interacting with actual real-world members of the clergy. They're not these kind of cardboard cutouts some people seem to imagine they are. Not even most monks. (I know, different religion and all that, but still the same rules apply.)

(PS. in my experience, a lot of them tend to drink and smoke quite a bit. Maybe Clerics should get Carouse? happy.gif )

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I find it rather interesting that the moment AS are brought up the topic immediately turns to one of a carnal nature, yet ask one simple question about SMs and whoa... sorpresa.gif
Where does it state that AS have to be lustful? Are women so weak willed that we are incapable of holding ourselves back?

No wonder you guys have a hard time playing credible females...
 

 

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