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Mikael Hasselstein

How can we be more gender inclusive in X-Wing?

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Actually, "Maybe it's the women who are stereotyping us." is a very valid option to raise.Before you can increase female inclusion you have to find out why they're not already playing. If you are not willing to explore any potential reason (regardless of how it may challange your preconceived notions of what the problem is), your claim to be serious about increasing female participation is ultimately a sham.

Okay, that's a point, so let's explore that. Let's assume there is a group of women who would like to play X-wing and for some reason have decided against it. Let's assume also that this is due to their preconceived notions of what the male players are like; be it sexist, misogynist, aggressive, et cetera.

So in your view, what would a solution to this look like? Calling them out won't help. Returning fire is, ultimately I think, only going to prove them right in the manner of some horrible self-fulfilling prophecy. But engaging positively and demonstrating that the X-Wing community is none of those things? Now we're getting somewhere.

your claim to be serious about [...] is ultimately a sham.

Mate, was that really necessary?

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Or maybe its something that is causing them to stay away and think they don't want to come.  

 

Right, that's assuming some level of exposure. If you guys are really committed to this cause, I welcome you to go poll outside your local supermarket. See how many females even know about miniatures games like X-Wing, let alone have some deep-seated interest that's being mitigated by social concerns. Come back and let us all know what you found.

 

Honestly, I feel like there are a lot of carts being put before horses here. Does sexism exist in the gaming industry at large? Absolutely. X-Wing is such a niche aspect of that industry that I have a hard time believing that that's the issue here. Generate interest in the game, and then worry about what's actually keeping women out of it. From where I'm standing, it's all simply a matter of interest and exposure, and the baseline assumption that we're doing something wrong is getting awfully tiresome.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Actually, "Maybe it's the women who are stereotyping us." is a very valid option to raise.Before you can increase female inclusion you have to find out why they're not already playing. If you are not willing to explore any potential reason (regardless of how it may challange your preconceived notions of what the problem is), your claim to be serious about increasing female participation is ultimately a sham.

Okay, that's a point, so let's explore that. Let's assume there is a group of women who would like to play X-wing and for some reason have decided against it. Let's assume also that this is due to their preconceived notions of what the male players are like; be it sexist, misogynist, aggressive, et cetera.

So in your view, what would a solution to this look like? Calling them out won't help. Returning fire is, ultimately I think, only going to prove them right in the manner of some horrible self-fulfilling prophecy. But engaging positively and demonstrating that the X-Wing community is none of those things? Now we're getting somewhere.

 

 

Ultimately, my point was that you're dismissing valid possibilities just because they don't fit with your preconceptions.

 

If you do want to go though how to deal with women in this particular example though:

- Someone is being misandronistic towards me.

- The level of their "harm" is that said misandronist is not imposing their presence on me.

- The first of my two options are to either seek out said misandronist and no doubt suffer through their sexism whilst I try to persuade them otherwise, all for the possibility that if I succeed they will have a better life because they get to enjoy something that they wouldn't have tried otherwise.

- The second of my two options are to classify it as not actually a problem in the first place (said misandronist is leaving me alone after all).

 

Personally, I'm more likely to consider the latter option to be the more reasonable response. The former may be more noble, selflessly putting yourself out so that the misandronist may both become a better person and discover an interest they wouldn't otherwise have known about, but personally I don't have enough energy to change the world, and find it better to instead on improving the lives of those I do care about. Choose your battles and all that jazz ;)

 

tldr;

It's only a problem if you choose to define it as such.

 

Ultimately, the questions of why a lot of women aren't playing are an important step in determining not only "How do we fix this problem?" (therefore working towards the topic of the thread, but also "Is this even a my problem in the first place?

 

 

your claim to be serious about [...] is ultimately a sham.

Mate, was that really necessary?

 

 

Really? You're starting to quote fragments of sentences out of context in order to score cheap shots now? :huh:

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Are you saying that "some women out there stereotype men" somehow answers a question on improving gender inclusion? What does bar hopping have to do with this? That's why I called it dodging the question. I'm sure that some women out there stereotype some gamer men. Just like I'm **** sure some men out there stereotype gamer women. Does this mean we can't try and find ways to be more inclusive? No.

 

It's a hyperbolic leap...

 

But if you'll allow to conjecture for a moment... would you use your smooth X-wing talk in the local pub to impress a woman who's already got several suitors clinging to her?  I'm sure your anti-Fat Han build would really get on...well, you might have to dress the language down. Fat IS rather judgmental.

Edited by Radzap

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Yes, yes, we need more females playing X-Wing.

And more males.

Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

Agreed.

This isn't an issue we can fix online in a forum. The forum should be where this issue is addressed in a POSITIVE way - no pointless accusations of general misogyny/misandry, but a celebration of anyone's favourite thing in the game, or suggestions for new additions.

Where you FIX this issue is on a personal level. Have a thick skin, be yourself, acknowledge there ARE idiots in the world, and don't give them the satisfaction of having gotten to you. Ignore and move on, and come on this forum to celebrate the positive side of the community.

Edited by Bakura83

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Let's assume there is a group of women who would like to play X-wing and for some reason have decided against it. Let's assume also that this is due to their preconceived notions of what the male players are like; be it sexist, misogynist, aggressive, et cetera.

 

So in your view, what would a solution to this look like? Calling them out won't help. Returning fire is, ultimately I think, only going to prove them right in the manner of some horrible self-fulfilling prophecy. But engaging positively and demonstrating that the X-Wing community is none of those things? Now we're getting somewhere.

 

Ultimately, my point was that you're dismissing valid possibilities just because they don't fit with your preconceptions.

 

If you do want to go though how to deal with women in this particular example though:

- Someone is being misanthropist towards me.

- The level of their "harm" is that said misanthropist is not imposing their presence on me.

- The first of my two options are to either seek out said misanthropist and no doubt suffer through their sexism whilst I try to persuade them otherwise, all for the possibility that if I succeed they will have a better life because they get to enjoy something that they wouldn't have tried otherwise.

- The second of my two options are to classify it as not actually a problem in the first place (said misanthropist is leaving me alone after all).

 

Personally, I'm more likely to consider the latter option to be the more reasonable response. The former may be more noble, selflessly putting yourself out so that the misanthropist may both become a better person and discover an interest they wouldn't otherwise have known about, but personally I don't have enough energy to change the world, and find it better to instead on improving the lives of those I do care about. Choose your battles and all that jazz ;)

 

In any discourse, you've got to take every angle into account otw you're just not doing your due diligence.    Thanks neko <3

Edited by Radzap

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Or maybe its something that is causing them to stay away and think they don't want to come.

 

Right, that's assuming some level of exposure. If you guys are really committed to this cause, I welcome you to go poll outside your local supermarket. See how many females even know about miniatures games like X-Wing, let alone have some deep-seated interest that's being mitigated by social concerns. Come back and let us all know what you found.

 

Honestly, I feel like there are a lot of carts being put before horses here. Does sexism exist in the gaming industry at large? Absolutely. X-Wing is such a niche aspect of that industry that I have a hard time believing that that's the issue here. Generate interest in the game, and then worry about what's actually keeping women out of it. From where I'm standing, it's all simply a matter of interest and exposure, and the baseline assumption that we're doing something wrong is getting awfully tiresome.

You use considerable choice of unsound logic in your arguments.

Even the concept is enough to turn women off. As your little super market idea would tell you.

What we are trying to address are the ways that the sexist plays out with men who have not really considered their behavior before. Most of us aren't doing anything that's really bad but I can easily name a few.

There's a bunch of simply stupid conceptions that are being tossed around in this thread like: girls like pink. Boys like blue. Boys like ships and planes and girls don't. Women are interested in make up. Any social studies student at the university level can tell you why these things are dangerous examples of sexist thought. Don't take my word for it. Go ask some other people. It's mainly about the stereotyping we do to not allow people of a particular gender to be thought of as doing certain things. For men it's isually not an issue. Men dislike shopping. Okay so what? Women dislike math and logical problems: the percentage of women in tech majors across the U.S. is about only 20%. These are typically the most lucrative jobs you can get. Think about it more. What are other problems about that stereotype that do lead to unequal opportunity. I call upon all true Americans to rethink the promise.

The others who vehemently think that there is no problem and that it shouldn't be talked about and doesn't need to be talked about should go read up on gamergate or the recent viral video about catcalling. You can also look at the manifestos of the Uc Santa Barbara shooting.

There. A bunch of facts you can go google and read about.

I offer my opinion as a reflect of those. Become informed, don't be sheeple. And above all don't post without reading more in the Internet.

These are the things we do in this xwing community that are wrong.

Again a thanks to mikael and a few others. I really don't know how you can continue discussing. Even this is way too much for me.

Another note: see how the women on this forum do not feel comfortable at all in these threads. They also do not share adverse opinion to mine. So don't try that logic leap.

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I think floof has put some level headed reasoning out there without any aggression. I'm not sure why people want to react so aggressive to floof.

Anyway. Welcome to... Probably the worst part of this forum. But welcome. Hope you stay.

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Pointing to examples of sexism outside of X-Wing is hardly proof of wrongdoing within this community. You can tell me that my logic is unsound all you like, but my eyes still work just fine. When you guys start giving me concrete examples of what we're doing wrong, and what, specifically, is "keeping women away" (something of a dubious notion in and of itself), then we can begin to have an intelligent conversation about how to fix it. All I see right now is a bunch of handwringing and questions without answers, and none of us are the wiser for it.

So, you want more people to play X-Wing? Advertise. There, I just solved all of our problems, and I did it without heaping all of societies sexism woes upon our shoulders.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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your claim to be serious about [...] is ultimately a sham.
Mate, was that really necessary?
 Really? You're starting to quote fragments of sentences out of context in order to score cheap shots now? :huh:

Sorry, I'll get to the rest of your post later on, just want to respond to this. I wasn't trying to quote you out of context. I'm not sure either what "cheap shots" you think I was trying to score. I was referring to the "your claim to be serious about" part, and why you felt it was necessary to suggest I might be falsely claiming to care about this.

 

For what it's worth, I had quoted your post in its entirety just a few lines above.

TLDR: It feels like you're calling me a troll for wanting to talk about these issues. No offence was meant.

Edited by floof

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yes, I'll be sure to go read the manifesto of a school shooter, since his thought process clearly applies to a large segment of the population

Actually yes it does.  =)  Have you read the testimonies of the students?  go check how those were analyzed by the students.  besides you seem rather sure of yourself, so.. you can't possibly be wrong right?  therefore, there's no harm in reading up and being informed right?  

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Pointing to examples of sexism outside of X-Wing is hardly proof of wrongdoing within this community. You can tell me that my logic is unsound all you like, but my eyes still work just fine. When you guys start giving me concrete examples of what we're doing wrong, and what, specifically, is "keeping women away" (something of a dubious notion in and of itself), then we can begin to have an intelligent conversation about how to fix it. All I see right now is a bunch of handwringing and questions without answers, and none of us are the wiser for it.

So, you want more people to play X-Wing? Advertise. There, I just solved all of our problems, and I did it without heaping all of societies sexism woes upon our shoulders.

 

Here you go:  two:  

There's a bunch of simply stupid conceptions that are being tossed around in this thread like: girls like pink. Boys like blue. Boys like ships and planes and girls don't. Women are interested in make up. Any social studies student at the university level can tell you why these things are dangerous examples of sexist thought. Don't take my word for it. Go ask some other people. It's mainly about the stereotyping we do to not allow people of a particular gender to be thought of as doing certain things. For men it's isually not an issue. Men dislike shopping. Okay so what? Women dislike math and logical problems: the percentage of women in tech majors across the U.S. is about only 20%. These are typically the most lucrative jobs you can get. Think about it more. What are other problems about that stereotype that do lead to unequal opportunity. I call upon all true Americans to rethink the promise. 

The others who vehemently think that there is no problem and that it shouldn't be talked about and doesn't need to be talked 

 

Here's a third one:  Making comments on an interwebs that try and make you seem funny when really it was a creepy joke to begin with.  le cough.  that wives thread.  that we got tired of trying to explain to you (after two or three pages too mind you) after you decided you had actually nothing to be ashamed of and continued to try and push the acceptance of your moderately abrasive humor onto the rest of us.  

Great timing on coming out of hiberation to be interested in thread too.  

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Number of women involved in development/marketing at FFG

There seems to be a good mixture; which is great to see. But that's interesting. Why does the community not reflect that same proportion? Perhaps FFG could adapt their marketing to encourage a larger female player base. Women-Only gaming evenings at LGS was a good suggestion. Sending out more female FFG reps to conventions/events is another good one. What about attempting to draw players from other games which are already popular with women? Or advertising X-Wing outside of the traditional avenues in which they are currently doing?

 

That's a terrible idea. It keeps the gender separation that you're currently hoping to solve intact, will probably suffer from embarrassingly low turnout for a while (if it ever picks up), and breeds resentment in anyone that wanted to participate but couldn't because they're a guy. As I've been saying, the best method is to simply crash down on any sexist behaviour when we see it. 

 

Honestly most of the girls I know would find a "Girls Only" tournament kind of patronizing. One of them would refuse to join and play with the guys instead out of some mix of spite and defiance, but if she had any interest in X-Wing she'd already be playing it.

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Blail Blerg:

"There's a bunch of simply stupid conceptions that are being tossed around in this thread like: girls like pink. Boys like blue. Boys like ships and planes and girls don't. Women are interested in make up."

 

Nice job suckling on that low hanging fruit!

 

I hope you know that most of us that play this game are not cut out of the spazziod aspy cloth. Thankfully, MtG is still the king in that regard and I hope it stays that way.

 

I really do hope you understand that the misogynist front of the gamer community is marginal. And that's marginal, in an already marginal community. Geeky does not have a consistent attractor!! I've tried getting my wife into mini's gaming, but she's far too interested in consuming everything that has been produced for the Doctor Who IP ever! That's going to take a while...

 

It's stupid to carry on like there's an issue beyond a few aberrant, anti-social idiots out there. But this is the typical response to things that arise these days since social media became the "go to" way to distribute news. Just look at Canada's gov't right now: they're calling the shooter at the capitol a lone gunman as opposed to a terrorist. 

 

We don't even have a smoking gun in the Xwing community, but we have people ready to launch because the stink of GamerGate is still in the air. And no one who brought GG up actually drew up comparisons to things that are happening in the Xwing community right now. 

 

If any of you are going to reference GamerGate, I challenge you to bring substantive evidence that comparable actions are happening  in the Xwing community. I think at this point, if things are as dire as they are being portrayed there should be at least once well documented case of abuse or harassment. 

 

Stop hiding behind righteous talk and show us some proof.

 

 


 

Edited by Radzap

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Yes, yes, we need more females playing X-Wing.

And more males.

Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

Agreed.

This isn't an issue we can fix online in a forum. The forum should be where this issue is addressed in a POSITIVE way - no pointless accusations of general misogyny/misandry, but a celebration of anyone's favourite thing in the game, or suggestions for new additions.

Where you FIX this issue is on a personal level. Have a thick skin, be yourself, acknowledge there ARE idiots in the world, and don't give them the satisfaction of having gotten to you. Ignore and move on, and come on this forum to celebrate the positive side of the community.

Edit: wow, when I fail English, I fail HARD.

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Maybe because what we do is EXTREMELY nerdy women don't join in as much.

 

 

I told them before that the nerd gene runs stronger in males.  But I was told that was sexist too...  :unsure:

 

 

 

Here's a man-purse for everyone, now can we stop with these threads? :P

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You realize Gamergate is an issue with gamers bevause the core issue of game journalists not disclosing a sexual relationship with the creator of the game they were reviewing. Any first year journalism student could point out the extreme conflict of interest and Corruption of not doing so.

Also you sight that incredible racist and cherry picked video?! Check yo privilige son.

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