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Mikael Hasselstein

How can we be more gender inclusive in X-Wing?

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The overwhelming majority of Star Wars characters are white guys. It doesn't cheapen the game for FFG to, in their warmest wisdom, make up more girls like Echo and Whisper so ladies can see the appeal of making purchases and helping the economy.

 

Some food for thought, so please don't take this the wrong way, but:

 

Shouldn't the game stand on its own merits of playability regardless of who adorns the cards? Moreover, isn't it condescending to women to effectively be saying "Here, you're a girl and this card has a girl on it, so you'll buy it, right?" By the same token, isn't it sexist of a woman to say "This game has no women in it, so I'm not buying it."

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The overwhelming majority of Star Wars characters are white guys. It doesn't cheapen the game for FFG to, in their warmest wisdom, make up more girls like Echo and Whisper so ladies can see the appeal of making purchases and helping the economy.

 

Some food for thought, so please don't take this the wrong way, but:

 

Shouldn't the game stand on its own merits of playability regardless of who adorns the cards? Moreover, isn't it condescending to women to effectively be saying "Here, you're a girl and this card has a girl on it, so you'll buy it, right?" By the same token, isn't it sexist of a woman to say "This game has no women in it, so I'm not buying it."

 

 

No. 

 

Consider why I disagree as your thought meal for the night.

Edited by bubblepopmei

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The overwhelming majority of Star Wars characters are white guys. It doesn't cheapen the game for FFG to, in their warmest wisdom, make up more girls like Echo and Whisper so ladies can see the appeal of making purchases and helping the economy.

 

Some food for thought, so please don't take this the wrong way, but:

 

Shouldn't the game stand on its own merits of playability regardless of who adorns the cards? Moreover, isn't it condescending to women to effectively be saying "Here, you're a girl and this card has a girl on it, so you'll buy it, right?" By the same token, isn't it sexist of a woman to say "This game has no women in it, so I'm not buying it."

 

 

No. 

 

Consider why I disagree as your thought meal for the night.

 

 

I honestly have no idea, but I'll throw something else out there. 

 

Take the utterly sexless game of Battletech, which is just giant robots (and occasionally tanks, planes, and infantry)  firing things at each other. The mechs are... well, just robots with guns, and the sheets are utterly stark-plain and gender-free. More or less accessible/appealing to you as a woman gamer? Do the mechs and/or their record sheets and/or anything else about the game need something to make them more appealing to you as a woman gamer? Do they appeal at all? Are they, marketing wise, a turn off?

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Vorpal Sword hit the nail on the head, if you don't think there is a problem you are part of the problem. Privilege blinds, basically. Of course if you are so blind you cannot even see or believe that privilege exists, well you can join Bill O'Reily in that category.

So simply because I don't think there is gender exclusivity pervasive to this game and it's deployment, I now must be in league with Fox News neocons?

 

What a bunch of nonsense.

 

Let me tell you a couple things I believe.

1) The Star Wars universe is not gender-diverse, and I'd never argue that it was.  However, that is not the doing of FFG or the community here.

 

2) I played another miniature game for years, called Blood Bowl. The pre-eminent race in tournament play are the Amazons, with a roster composed entirely of women. I would be willing to bet Blood Bowl has far fewer female players than X-Wing, despite a much more gender diverse lore.

 

3) From what I've seen, the Star Trek universe was much more female friendly, and yet where are all the women Attack Wing players?

 

I don't think FFG or this particular X-Wing community's actions have any bearing on the gender inequality you see, certainly not to any material extent. I think the inequality has everything to do with society's expectations of what qualifies as a gender appropriate activity, and the pressure society puts on those that don't fit neatly in that little pre-determined package.

 

That does not make me a neo-con by any stretch, just someone able to keep multiple rational thoughts in my head at the same time.

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Oh, the privilege argument completely twisted from its origins. I am out of here for real. Have fun.

 

Have a nice day!

 

 

My apologies to Mikael for not replying sooner. Busy life of being a single Mom in the big city. LOL.

 

No sweat! ;)

 

But, I would like your thoughts about how we - as a community - can be more inclusive than we currently are. How can X-Wing gaming groups appear to be more authentically welcoming, given the current gender imbalance at most gaming tables.

 

(Disclaimer: Yes, for you skeptical empiricists, I do make this empirical presumption about a lot of situations on which I have neither statistics or more than a handful of observations. Yet, the sample of observations that I do have - in my relatively inclusive part of the world - is starting to approach the point where I m having confidence in the disparity being due to more than sampling error.)

 

By the way, I do think that your videos really help, even if they're not (to my knowledge) intended to that effect.

 

2) I played another miniature game for years, called Blood Bowl. The pre-eminent race in tournament play are the Amazons, with a roster composed entirely of women. I would be willing to bet Blood Bowl has far fewer female players than X-Wing, despite a much more gender diverse lore.

 

Saying that Amazons in Blood Bowl is a sign of inclusiveness, is like saying that blackface is inclusive of race. The whole notion of amazons is a male sexual fantasy. (A pretty awesome fantasy, if I may say so, but let's not pretend it's anything else.)

 

3) From what I've seen, the Star Trek universe was much more female friendly, and yet where are all the women Attack Wing players?

 

Which gets us back to my original point - that it's not about the game that we're presented with. The imbalance in players is not because of the game; it's because of our social dynamics - maybe in the community, or the broader society and its presumptions about our community.

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2) I played another miniature game for years, called Blood Bowl. The pre-eminent race in tournament play are the Amazons, with a roster composed entirely of women. I would be willing to bet Blood Bowl has far fewer female players than X-Wing, despite a much more gender diverse lore.

 

Saying that Amazons in Blood Bowl is a sign of inclusiveness, is like saying that blackface is inclusive of race. The whole notion of amazons is a male sexual fantasy. (A pretty awesome fantasy, if I may say so, but let's not pretend it's anything else.)

 

3) From what I've seen, the Star Trek universe was much more female friendly, and yet where are all the women Attack Wing players?

 

Which gets us back to my original point - that it's not about the game that we're presented with. The imbalance in players is not because of the game; it's because of our social dynamics - maybe in the community, or the broader society and its presumptions about our community.

 

Point taken on the Amazons, though I'd point out that Norse show more skin.

 

On point 3, this is where I think you and I just aren't seeing eye to eye. You specifically ask what can we do to be more gender inclusive in X-Wing. I would view that as a very different topic than, what can we do to be more gender inclusive in miniatures and board games. 

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it's because of our social dynamics - maybe in the community, or the broader society and its presumptions about our community.

I listed a few things a number of pages ago on what little we can do about this.

But there is very little we can actually do to overcome social dynamics like this, advertising, parenting, social groups, ect... have lead to this and there's really very little we can do. Other than making sure we are behaving properly when/if a woman shows interest in the game.

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On point 3, this is where I think you and I just aren't seeing eye to eye. You specifically ask what can we do to be more gender inclusive in X-Wing. I would view that as a very different topic than, what can we do to be more gender inclusive in miniatures and board games. 

 

 

This. This has apparently been the whole trouble. The thread and post posit the question one way, and everyone responds accordingly, but I guess the *actual* question is different.

headdesk.jpg

Edited by nathankc

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Point taken on the Amazons, though I'd point out that Norse show more skin.

 

On point 3, this is where I think you and I just aren't seeing eye to eye. You specifically ask what can we do to be more gender inclusive in X-Wing. I would view that as a very different topic than, what can we do to be more gender inclusive in miniatures and board games. 

 

Well, I am talking in an X-Wing forum, and I would think it was awesome if X-Wing was the game that appealed to women earlier than those other games might. Why? Because I'm a Star Wars/X-Wing partisan, and I think FFG could do it through marketing their game (not changing their game) to a female audience. However, because I don't think FFG higher-ups pays too close attention  to these forums, I'm mostly talking about the community thinking about this.

 

Also, while societies change slowly and only en masse, I don't accept the defeatism that it is the way it is and we're powerless.

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On point 3, this is where I think you and I just aren't seeing eye to eye. You specifically ask what can we do to be more gender inclusive in X-Wing. I would view that as a very different topic than, what can we do to be more gender inclusive in miniatures and board games. 

 

This. This has apparently been the whole trouble. The thread and post posit the question one way, and everyone responds accordingly, but I guess the *actual* question is different.

 

How so?

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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I honestly do nott understand why the fuss on trying to make this more inclusive for the female gender...This is X-wing.. Nott purple penguin therapy lol...Back in the day Miniature Wargaming was 90% one gender ; the other 10% was loyal spouses or just eye candy...Now it is almost 50-50...Let's get back to nott burying the good posts for trivial tripe...

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The thread is titled
"How can we be more gender inclusive in x-wing?"

and the original post states:

"I do think there's value to continuing a conversation about gender in X-Wing"
"it's something that should be of greater interest to FFG and the X-Wing community than it currently appears to be"
I think there's a broader point here that FFG neglects to their detriment.
"the current gender imbalance in the game is not in keeping with our times or culture."

 

Lots of specific references to this game and FFG - it wasn't positioned as a broad, cross cultural topic imho so I think that is why it was met with some resistance and as people have said, lots of talking past each other. Apparently the points of reference didn't start out the same or the goalposts have moved

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

 

Also this: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Edited by nathankc

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The overwhelming majority of Star Wars characters are white guys. It doesn't cheapen the game for FFG to, in their warmest wisdom, make up more girls like Echo and Whisper so ladies can see the appeal of making purchases and helping the economy.

 

Some food for thought, so please don't take this the wrong way, but:

 

Shouldn't the game stand on its own merits of playability regardless of who adorns the cards? Moreover, isn't it condescending to women to effectively be saying "Here, you're a girl and this card has a girl on it, so you'll buy it, right?" By the same token, isn't it sexist of a woman to say "This game has no women in it, so I'm not buying it."

 

 

No. 

 

Consider why I disagree as your thought meal for the night.

 

 

I honestly have no idea, but I'll throw something else out there. 

 

Take the utterly sexless game of Battletech, which is just giant robots (and occasionally tanks, planes, and infantry)  firing things at each other. The mechs are... well, just robots with guns, and the sheets are utterly stark-plain and gender-free. More or less accessible/appealing to you as a woman gamer? Do the mechs and/or their record sheets and/or anything else about the game need something to make them more appealing to you as a woman gamer? Do they appeal at all? Are they, marketing wise, a turn off?

 

 

Well, the mechs are controlled by pilots and the pilots are overwhelmingly male and when it is the token female she tends to be a sex object. 

 

I don't think this is a conversation worth having. You have no idea because you choose not to. 

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Oh, the privilege argument completely twisted from its origins. I am out of here for real. Have fun.

 

Have a nice day!

 

 

My apologies to Mikael for not replying sooner. Busy life of being a single Mom in the big city. LOL.

 

No sweat! ;)

 

But, I would like your thoughts about how we - as a community - can be more inclusive than we currently are. How can X-Wing gaming groups appear to be more authentically welcoming, given the current gender imbalance at most gaming tables.

 

(Disclaimer: Yes, for you skeptical empiricists, I do make this empirical presumption about a lot of situations on which I have neither statistics or more than a handful of observations. Yet, the sample of observations that I do have - in my relatively inclusive part of the world - is starting to approach the point where I m having confidence in the disparity being due to more than sampling error.)

 

By the way, I do think that your videos really help, even if they're not (to my knowledge) intended to that effect.

 

2) I played another miniature game for years, called Blood Bowl. The pre-eminent race in tournament play are the Amazons, with a roster composed entirely of women. I would be willing to bet Blood Bowl has far fewer female players than X-Wing, despite a much more gender diverse lore.

 

Saying that Amazons in Blood Bowl is a sign of inclusiveness, is like saying that blackface is inclusive of race. The whole notion of amazons is a male sexual fantasy. (A pretty awesome fantasy, if I may say so, but let's not pretend it's anything else.)

 

3) From what I've seen, the Star Trek universe was much more female friendly, and yet where are all the women Attack Wing players?

 

Which gets us back to my original point - that it's not about the game that we're presented with. The imbalance in players is not because of the game; it's because of our social dynamics - maybe in the community, or the broader society and its presumptions about our community.

 

 

I'm a bit spent on these forums because they are very toxic. I really respect what you're doing and saying and there seems to be a growing number so I recommend to keep doing it, within the guidelines of the FFG forum.

 

There are enough guys here who are so dim witted that they honestly think because they do not personally experience inequality it must not exist. I'm too busy in my life to bother trying to climb that wall. As far as I'm concerned, they are not worth the time investment to try to educate, especially when in an online setting like this they are so quick to aggression. 

 

I suppose the easiest way for the community to improve would be for everyone who gets it to ignore the ones who don't. Then their contributions shrivel up and fewer and fewer people will be talking to them so they might actually go away. That would resolve the issue, from a certain point of view.

 

Alternatively, if you've got the spirit remaining you can continue to fight the fight via education tools. With all the guys here priding themselves on being intelligent, someone has to have the brains to actually research about social justice and feminism and learn themselves a fact or two. The rest just put on ignore because their contribution to society is only negative. They don't understand why, either.

 

I'll finish with this - the x-wing community needs a lot of work. I find anything but the most benign discussions degrade into attacks on gender. There is a lot of misogyny and aggression towards women here. What else is new, right? I don't think the guys here are any different than any other gaming community. Needs improvement. It will be slow going because one of the favourite responses from them is to blatantly deny that any wrongdoing has ever happened in their neighborhood. That's hard to fight.

 

I honestly don't care to discuss this. The thread helps me identify and ignore abusive men and identify and feel safer around good men like you, Mikael. Yes, many of the men here make me feel unsafe. Their level of aggression and denial is terrifying. Not that they will bother to learn about why, they will just deny aggressively.

 

FFG seems to be doing a good job of inclusion in their latest releases. I like the company and appreciate their efforts and talent. I also appreciate anyone who is willing to stand up and try to identify and resolve issues like this. 

 

I'm going to go back to the Edge of the Empire RPG forum now. They aren't as aggressively macho as the x-wing community is.

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The overwhelming majority of Star Wars characters are white guys. It doesn't cheapen the game for FFG to, in their warmest wisdom, make up more girls like Echo and Whisper so ladies can see the appeal of making purchases and helping the economy.

 

Some food for thought, so please don't take this the wrong way, but:

 

Shouldn't the game stand on its own merits of playability regardless of who adorns the cards? Moreover, isn't it condescending to women to effectively be saying "Here, you're a girl and this card has a girl on it, so you'll buy it, right?" By the same token, isn't it sexist of a woman to say "This game has no women in it, so I'm not buying it."

 

 

No. 

 

Consider why I disagree as your thought meal for the night.

 

 

I honestly have no idea, but I'll throw something else out there. 

 

Take the utterly sexless game of Battletech, which is just giant robots (and occasionally tanks, planes, and infantry)  firing things at each other. The mechs are... well, just robots with guns, and the sheets are utterly stark-plain and gender-free. More or less accessible/appealing to you as a woman gamer? Do the mechs and/or their record sheets and/or anything else about the game need something to make them more appealing to you as a woman gamer? Do they appeal at all? Are they, marketing wise, a turn off?

 

 

Well, the mechs are controlled by pilots and the pilots are overwhelmingly male and when it is the token female she tends to be a sex object. 

 

I don't think this is a conversation worth having. You have no idea because you choose not to. 

 

 

:unsure: I think you may be playing a different version of Battletech than I am.

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It's hard to want to be inclusive of anyone, regardless of gender, when they get completely unhinged at the mere suggestion that the Phantom pilots might be men. That doesn't exactly provide a wellspring of rational thought on the subject of gender bias. If certain people really had a vested interest in the subject, and weren't just trolls themselves, they wouldn't spew out a bunch of abusive blanket terms (like calling all the men they disagree with "dim witted") while not-so-subtly dodging real conversations with the people trying to understand their point of view.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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:unsure: I think you may be playing a different version of Battletech than I am.

Lore wise, the BTech universe is pretty even split between the genders of mech pilots. Gamewise, there is no such thing as a pilot really, not the mini-game version. There are no names, no pilots, ect... not like X-Wing.

RPG you had pilots, but again BTech was pretty even that way.

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Thank you to everyone who attempted to take part. At this time, we must ask you take the conversation elsewhere. These forums are not the place for such public discussions. This in no way suggests the topics are unimportant, but simply that we are simply ill-equipped to handle such exchanges here.

 

Please do not revisit this subject on these forums.

Many thanks,

FFG Webmaster

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