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Mikael Hasselstein

How can we be more gender inclusive in X-Wing?

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[ADMIN]

 

Thank you to everyone who attempted to take part. At this time, we must ask you take the conversation elsewhere. These forums are not the place for such public discussions. This in no way suggests the topics are unimportant, but simply that we are simply ill-equipped to handle such exchanges here.

 

Please do not revisit this subject on these forums.

Many thanks,

FFG Webmaster

[/ADMIN]

 

 

Okay, so the Webmaster locked the 'Wow, was the "Discrimination Against Females in X-wing" thread deleted by FFG?' thread, with the following message:

 

 

This thread has been locked for one reason only – to answer the question asked in its title. Visit the first post of the thread for my answer.

 

Please create a new thread if you truly believe there is value in continuing a conversation about gender in X-Wing.

 

However, you should also know that we are taking a firmer stance with threads that do not discuss the parent forum's product directly. They may be locked or deleted without warning if the content strays too far from the original subject, or if it is deemed off-topic. These forums are not a platform for off-topic conversation, but to discuss the products that FFG publishes and that you presumably play. There are countless non-FFG communities online where discussions about any topic can be had, without reproach.

 

Thank you in advance for your understanding,

FFG Webmaster

 

So, pursuant to that, yes, I do think there's value to continuing a conversation about gender in X-Wing, and I think it's something that should be of greater interest to FFG and the X-Wing community than it currently appears to be (all the past threads notwithstanding).

 

I do think that our game has a more-than-token presence of female pilots and crew, and I think that's a great sign. Also, I'm confident that FFG and most of the participants on this forum have a genuine interest in inclusivity.

 

I think there's a broader point here that FFG neglects to their detriment. By not being even more pro-active about including women they're missing half the potential customer demographic. In my day-to-day life I'm a scholar of international studies. One of the sure-fire differences between an under-developed country and a developed country is the degree to which that country is inclusive of women in its economy and politics. Empowerment of women is the magic that unleashes economic potential.

 

I realize that with Gamergate, it's easier (quicker, more seductive) to take an ostrich-head-in-the-sand approach, and pretend there's no issue. But I honestly think there's a positive opportunity here.

 

I think it could be made clearer that our community actively wants more women players. Not because we have lascivious designs (I'm a happily married man with no extramarital ambitions), but because we feel that the current gender imbalance in the game is not in keeping with our times or culture.

 

So, how to do that?

 

I'd really like for bubblepopmei and Kyla, or any other women participants, or the women who posted in the X-Wing Wives thread to respond to this question.

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Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

 

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

 

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

Edited by DariusAPB

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Star Wars love is fairly broad across the genders. If you like Star Wars and table top gaming, odds are you are going to play this game or want to when you discover it. I doubt any female examines the contents of the core game, finds there is no art of female pilots and abandons playing. It's a non-issue and certainly one that isn't losing FFG any sales. 

 

Now, a discussion of female players at FLGS or tournaments *might* be worth having, but then you are talking more about gaming culture in general and less about this particular game imho

Edited by nathankc

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By not being even more pro-active about including women they're missing half the potential customer demographic.

I'd be very curious what if anything women think FFG could do to be more proactive. Just more female pilots or something else.

Myself I'm not so sure there is anything FFG could do, but as I'm not a woman I don't know what they'd like to see added.

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If you look at the whole of FFG products, the issue is not FFG. The artwork they use for characters has an amazing amount of diversity. X-wing is limited in what it can show, depending a lot on the fluff to say who or what a character is. I don't see how FFG itself can be anymore opening to a gamer of any kind. As we get more and more obscure ships, where FFG may be forced to create new characters (FFG characters are beginning to cross over into the LCG) or dig really, really deep and make random connections (see Corran in an E-wing).

 

No, the issue is more of a local one. This is about creating an opening community to any of those with interest. We cannot force someone to like a game. I really, really don't like this topic. If there are women that have an interest in this game, the only thing holding them back would be the local playgroups. There is nothing FFG can do about that.

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Don't be mean to women who play.  That's pretty self-explanatory.  

 

Don't raise your daughters to play exclusively with "girly" toys.  Throw in a few dinosaurs, legos, and model airplanes.  See what they like and give them more of whatever that is.  Same goes for boys too, by the way.  

 

Don't expect a majority of women to flock to X-wing and similar games overnight.  If I grew up playing the sort of games that many women did, I would probably not be very interested, either.  There will be many individual exceptions, but in general, upbringing has a big effect on what we like to do in adulthood.   

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The onus isn't on FFG. They're making a Star Wars game with Star Wars characters in it. It isn't specifically targeted at a male demographic.

 

Any significant disparity that's unrepresentative of the actual proportions of people wanting to play isn't FFG's fault. If someone wants to play X-wing and is being put off by unwelcoming players or comes to the forum and is put off by people's behaviour then that's not FFG's doing.

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Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

 

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

 

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

 

Not sure if you realized this, but women make up 51% of the population.

 

Women do not make up 51% of the player base however.  It would seem that if you want this game to prosper for a longer time, more interest would be a good thing.  This seems like a nearly untapped market.  Why not try to increase their interest in the game?

 

If the topic were how to get more guys to play, would you still be opposed?

 

I'd bet the SW fan base is much closer to a even split than the X-wing fan base.  My wife, daughter, and neices all LOVE star wars.  My daughter is going as a clone trooper and one of my nieces is going as Princess Leia for halloween.  Would these folks not be potential players that would drive X-wing to higher popularity?

 

I find women in general shun boardgames, miniature games, video games, RPGs, etc in general...until they actually are exposed to them.  More often than not they come to understand what draws people to them, and start to explore their own interests in those areas.

 

Back to the topic.

Women's night at hobby/comic book stores would be a good start.  Have a gaming evening devoted just to women.  The biggest obstacle is women not feeling welcome/secure in a male dominated area.  Drive the men out, get the women involved, then, if interested, they may start coming to regular events.

All the regulars would need to convince friends and significant others of the appropriate gender to attend though at least to try things out.  Having a women's night with only 2 women attending would be considered a flop pretty fast.

 

Introducing it to signficant (and their friends) on a personal level would help too.  Convince wives/girlfriends to try it out at home, then eventually take them to competitions.

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Star Wars love is fairly broad across the genders. If you like Star Wars and table top gaming, odds are you are going to play this game or want to when you discover it. I doubt any female examines the contents of the core game, finds there is no art of female pilots and abandons playing. It's a non-issue and certainly one that isn't losing FFG any sales. 

 

Now, a discussion of female players at FLGS or tournaments *might* be worth having, but then you are talking more about gaming culture in general and less about this particular game imho

 

For me, this is the issue: women seem to be (relative to a lot of other "classic" sci-fi franchises) well-represented in Star Wars fandom, but they aren't well represented in the X-wing Minis community. Clearly there's a disconnect.

 

I think you're right that the disconnect is something we inherited from gaming culture in general, but that's what makes me unsure of what exactly to do next.

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What if the core set included a bar of soap and deodorant for the more fragrant gamers?

 

Maybe it wouldn't attract more players, but it certainly wouldn't put anyone off.

 

If you could convince the male gamers to use such products, it may help the venues not smell so **** repulsive.  It's a good start!

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Don't be mean to women who play.  That's pretty self-explanatory.  

 

The environment goes well beyond that. The venue's environment is also a big factor. I'm extremely lucky to have a great local venue. Clean, well lit, and very professional. Let's face it, most game stores are not exactly run by the most professional people. I have seen a few crappy venues. There are a few that just scream "boys club, girls stay out". From the type of product on display to the appearance of the employees. A welcoming environment is so much more that merely being welcoming to your opponent. You have to look where you play.

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STAHP IT! :angry:

 

No.

 

Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

 

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

 

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

 

Well, the admin invited (even said "please") to create a new thread about gender in X-Wing if I felt there was value in it. As far as the broader thing about people needing to get over gender - Oh, I couldn't disagree more, and I question why you feel it the issue needs a full stop.

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Should we push for more males to play with Barbie dolls, more females to play with tonka trucks, etc?

Let kids and people play with what they want. Don't ram it down their throats or complain that everything isn't 50/50 and gender neutral.

Honestly I'm tired of these kinds of threads and complaints about non existent issues,

Should we study and push for there to be an equal amount , percentage wise of Asians and whites playing?

How do we know if there is an equal or "right" amount of players involved from households under $35k annual income?

What about those born on a Wednesday?

Play the game. Enjoy it. Don't manufacture a melt down or crisis from nothing.

It's old. It's tiring. It's what people do when they have nothing else to worry about.

I'm totally for banning those who detract from actual gameplay and product critiques.

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Honestly I'm with the Admin on this one...

I'll further point that with x-wing gender isn't an issue. Full stop.

 

There are male and female pilots listed in the cards. Full stop.

 

People need to get over gender, and that's a widespread thing not centralized to this game.

Full. Fracking. Stop.

 

Not sure if you realized this, but women make up 51% of the population.

 

Women do not make up 51% of the player base however.  It would seem that if you want this game to prosper for a longer time, more interest would be a good thing.  This seems like a nearly untapped market.  Why not try to increase their interest in the game?

>>They can play if they want to, same as any guy. They choose not to, whatever.

 

If the topic were how to get more guys to play, would you still be opposed? >>Yes. Gender has no relevance.

 

I'd bet the SW fan base is much closer to a even split than the X-wing fan base.  My wife, daughter, and neices all LOVE star wars.  My daughter is going as a clone trooper and one of my nieces is going as Princess Leia for halloween.  Would these folks not be potential players that would drive X-wing to higher popularity? >>Yes, but why specifically target gender - that's my point it shouldn't matter.

 

I find women in general shun boardgames, miniature games, video games, RPGs, etc in general...until they actually are exposed to them.  More often than not they come to understand what draws people to them, and start to explore their own interests in those areas. >>Ehh true sort of. I'll give you that.

 

Back to the topic.

Women's night at hobby/comic book stores would be a good start.  Have a gaming evening devoted just to women.  The biggest obstacle is women not feeling welcome/secure in a male dominated area.  Drive the men out, get the women involved, then, if interested, they may start coming to regular events. >>True, this could work as a temporary measure for a decade or so before merging.

All the regulars would need to convince friends and significant others of the appropriate gender to attend though at least to try things out.  Having a women's night with only 2 women attending would be considered a flop pretty fast.

 

Introducing it to signficant (and their friends) on a personal level would help too.  Convince wives/girlfriends to try it out at home, then eventually take them to competitions.

 

Grrr you made me reply to this thread again.

 

For laziness i've put my answers above after your point. with little >>'s where i've said something.

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It's old. It's tiring. It's what people do when they have nothing else to worry about.

I'm totally for banning those who detract from actual gameplay and product critiques.

 

If it's tiring to you, then I think that the best solution is for you not to engage the threads. If you think the situation is fine as it is, then what's the harm in my thread - or do have some other reason for wanting me to shut up and be banned?

 

Also, banning people who are calling for gender inclusivity - yeah, that's the message that FFG wants to send.

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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If you think a game needs to chane because you think not enough girls are interested in it.., then I don't know what to say.

Sorry girls aren't as interested in table top gaming as you wish.

Most girls don't play with tonka trucks, or hot wheels cars, etc as boys. It's a GENDER thing. People have certain gender specific interests

I don't play with Barbies. Ever think it's a gender thing and not an issue with the product not being "gender inclusive" enough?

Don't force it.

It's sickening how "equal" and gender neutral people want things.

Do you want all baby rooms to be painted grey, not blue or pink?

Oh the color blue is too gender exclusive, it may offend the baby girls!

Weird

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If 51% of the population consists of women then 51% of Generic Pilots are women.

 

Game = Balanced.

 

Dude, you're missing the point. I praise FFG for their inclusivity of female pilots and crew. The point I'm getting at is that the player base is very unbalanced.

 

The fact that you're getting so militantly opposed to this worries me. I've felt all along that beyond a few trolls we were in agreement that it would be better if we had more women players. Do you disagree with the intent to have more women playing this game?

 

 

 

If you think a game needs to chane because you think not enough girls are interested in it.., then I don't know what to say.

 

Please understand me. I do not want the game to change, I want the player base to change.

 

 

Sorry girls aren't as interested in table top gaming as you wish.

 

And if they don't want to play, then I'm perfectly fine with them opting out. However, we've seen too much shift in the traditional games that women choose to play to suggest that there's a fixed structure in what that might be. Video games used to be the same way and its changing - painfully. Roleplaying games the same thing.

 

 

It's sickening how "equal" and gender neutral people want things.

 

That says more about you than it does about me. I'm disappointed and surprised that you feel that way. Also, I'm not calling for gender neutrality, if by that you mean non-gendered/androgynous. I'm just talking about inclusion.

Edited by Mikael Hasselstein

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Two things will happen in modifying a highly successful product to try to make it more "inclusive"...

1) destroy the successful formula

2). Fail to bring more girls to the table to play

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