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FFG_Sam Stewart

Beta Update 8

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Pulling down one Star Destroyer? That's so 2008! With these strength upgrades a jedi master with 4 force die has a reasonable chance to pull down four star destroyers ( 1 force point to activate basic, 2 for 4*2 strength upgrades, 1 for magnitude upgrades and one for range upgrades)   

 

By RAW, no one is going to be able to replicate Starkiller's stunt of pulling down a Star Destroyer from extreme or even planetary ranges like we see in that game, because Range Upgrades for Force Power Move only increase the "maximum range", not the starting range of the object which is always short range.

 

So sure, you could try and pull down 4 Star Destroyers, but you've have to wait until they were a few metres away (i.e. short range) before you could do anything.

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Pulling down one Star Destroyer? That's so 2008! With these strength upgrades a jedi master with 4 force die has a reasonable chance to pull down four star destroyers ( 1 force point to activate basic, 2 for 4*2 strength upgrades, 1 for magnitude upgrades and one for range upgrades)   

 

By RAW, no one is going to be able to replicate Starkiller's stunt of pulling down a Star Destroyer from extreme or even planetary ranges like we see in that game, because Range Upgrades for Force Power Move only increase the "maximum range", not the starting range of the object which is always short range.

 

So sure, you could try and pull down 4 Star Destroyers, but you've have to wait until they were a few metres away (i.e. short range) before you could do anything.

 

 

The grammar used in the sentences describing the Move power is open to interpretation.

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I think it would have been simpler to keep the language as forbidding multiple activations unless otherwise specified.

 

Move at Sil 4+ is a bit much. I think the real issue here is that, so long as you roll enough pips, you can do this without any opposition. I've felt that one of the failings of the EotE Force powers is that they are removed from the narrative dice mechanics the entire rest of the game is based upon. I'd say that, in the case of Move, any usage of the power should come with a Discipline check vs. Silhouette (possibly adding a sidebar about trying to Move objects under acceleration or otherwise affected by things like repulsors or drives, indicating some way of making that check more difficult). I'd even consider upgrading the difficulty, or adding setback dice, for each object beyond the first being Moved at once--after all, what we see in the films is that moving multiple objects at once, even small ones, is a task requiring significant Discipline, as is lifting an X-Wing, despite size matter[ing] not.

 

I'd really prefer to see Protect/Unleash lose a bunch of Range upgrades--other than the ridiculous clone Emperor attacks through space with Force Storm nonsense, every instance in the EU of using either power is within Close (and maybe Medium) range.

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I'd really prefer to see Protect/Unleash lose a bunch of Range upgrades--other than the ridiculous clone Emperor attacks through space with Force Storm nonsense, every instance in the EU of using either power is within Close (and maybe Medium) range.

 

Agreed.  Though, I'm tempted to make an assassin that assassinates people from 1 km away using force lightning.  hmmm... shame deadly accuracy can't be applied to discipline.   :)

 

Or better yet, make a gunner/sniper that does it.  I mean, from 1km out, you don't really need to be stealthy. :D

Edited by Thebearisdriving

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I'm glad Unleash is more deadly, but I wish they got rid of some of the range upgrades.  That goes for almost every power with range upgrades.

 

All the cool force users use the force for sniping.

 

 

For this...

 

Battle_of_Pinnacle_Base.jpg

 

 

I feel like this is one of those things from EU that I don't really want to know about.

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Never read Dark Empire, but... it's Dark Empire. The comic that brought you Self-replicating droid factory-juggernauts, Super Star destroyers with superlasers, and Luke falling to the dark side to take his father's place at the clone emperor's side. (it is his destiny!)

Edited by Rakaydos

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I'd really prefer to see Protect/Unleash lose a bunch of Range upgrades--other than the ridiculous clone Emperor attacks through space with Force Storm nonsense, every instance in the EU of using either power is within Close (and maybe Medium) range.

 

Some powers that could reflect Unleashed at extreme range:

 

Corruption

Lighting Storm / Force Storm

Force Destruction / Force Blast

Deadly Sight

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I'd really prefer to see Protect/Unleash lose a bunch of Range upgrades--other than the ridiculous clone Emperor attacks through space with Force Storm nonsense, every instance in the EU of using either power is within Close (and maybe Medium) range.

 

Some powers that could reflect Unleashed at extreme range:

 

Corruption

Lighting Storm / Force Storm

Force Destruction / Force Blast

Deadly Sight

 

If the only reference for a power is from Force Unleashed, it doesn't count.

 

The Dathomiri Lightning Storm didn't cover that large of an area.

 

The Force Storm is kind of represented here.

 

None of the others appear to be represented across that large a range.

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As far as it's concerned with moving Star Destroyers, I think it would definitely require a Move Power skill check, and if that's the case you can easily let it fall under the "Impossible Tasks" sidebar. 

 

It says in the sidebar "Allowing the PCs to attempt an impossible task should be relegated to critical moments in a story's arc or truly life-or-death situations." So if it's a critical part of the story, and a player is really wanting to do this as part of a dramatic narrative moment, I don't see why it couldn't be done. Just make them require to spend a destiny point and set it as a Formidable task. This is all allowable per RAW. 

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I generally try and avoid getting involved in these discussions, and won't comment further except to remind people that the "may activate multiple times unless stated otherwise" is the same rule as already exists in Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire. 

That may be true, but if during the beta test for a game that's centered around Force users and Force powers, if a potential issue or concern is brought to light regarding a Force power that's in all three books, shouldn't it be considered as something that might need to be included the errata for the other two games?

 

Setting aside Move's Strength Upgrade for a moment...

 

Looking at the update, the bulk of the text changes were to add the sentence "This may only be activated once" to various upgrades, mostly of the Control variety.  I would think from an editing perspective, it'd be easier to not change the sidebar's current text and stick with the default of "unless the power or upgrade says otherwise, it can only be activated once."

 

In that vein, i believe the only two updates needed in the vein of multiple activations would be Enhance's Basic Power to say that the user gains a Success or Advantage per FP spent, and the Strength Upgrade for Move to say that it can be activated multiple times (which this week's update does add).

 

The clarifications on Bind (particularly the Duration Upgrade) were both needed and make sense (basic power lasts until start of the user's next turn, Duration Upgrade only applies to immoblize and stagger effects), and the range boost on Battle Meditation does make the power fit better with the background material.

 

Protect/Unleash I wonder if the basic power has gotten too good, as I see a lot of the characters that are going to wind up taking this power having a Willpower of at least 4, meaning at least 9 points of damage negation (Protection) or just damage (Unleash) and likely to be much higher due to said characters having multiple ranks of Discipline as well.  Truthfully, I think that while the base number needed a boost, using double the character's Willpower is too good.  Perhaps as an alternative have it be 2 plus Willpower to determine the base for how much damage is negated/inflicted?  It's still a boost, but not a major one.

 

On the hot topic of Move's Strength Upgrade... after some more thought, I'm actually not as worried about it as I had been.  Part of that is due to the restriction that the targeted object has to start within Short Range*, but also if somebody were to try and use a Silhouette 6 or larger object to attack a target, they'd be rolling against a very high Difficultly pool.  There's also the matter of needing to invest the XP both to get a high Force Rating and to get all the Strength Upgrades, to say nothing of Range Upgrades if you want to move something that big any meaningful distance or use it as an attack.

 

*I've seen a few folks mention that if you couldn't trigger the Strength Upgrade more than once, then Yoda expecting Luke to lift the X-Wing out of the Dagobah swamp would be an impossible task.  Of course, the problem is that the X-Wing was more likely to be at Medium Range unless the GM was feeling particularly generous to place it at the very cusp of Short Range from where Luke was standing.  Yoda was even further away, but then he's a GM plot device.

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One of my playtesters made a suggestion; can we get a symbol or perhaps a border-change that denotes at a glance what upgrades can be activated multiple times in Force Power Trees and what ones cannot be? 

 

Yes, you can "just read the description" but the text-box real-estate in some of those upgrades can get pretty tight.  Sometimes you have to flip forward or back a page to hunt down the entry to see the line.  I think an artistic/design change to the box (could be shape or coloration) would help denote the ability quickly just like how Talents can be differentiated between Passive and Action based, and which talents are Force talents.

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One of my playtesters made a suggestion; can we get a symbol or perhaps a border-change that denotes at a glance what upgrades can be activated multiple times in Force Power Trees and what ones cannot be? 

 

Yes, you can "just read the description" but the text-box real-estate in some of those upgrades can get pretty tight.  Sometimes you have to flip forward or back a page to hunt down the entry to see the line.  I think an artistic/design change to the box (could be shape or coloration) would help denote the ability quickly just like how Talents can be differentiated between Passive and Action based, and which talents are Force talents.

Quoting for Emphasis

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One of my playtesters made a suggestion; can we get a symbol or perhaps a border-change that denotes at a glance what upgrades can be activated multiple times in Force Power Trees and what ones cannot be?

 

Like this?

 

munchkin1.png?w=241&h=300

Well, no not like that exactly...I'm sure SJG would sue FFG for that...

;)

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I generally try and avoid getting involved in these discussions, and won't comment further except to remind people that the "may activate multiple times unless stated otherwise" is the same rule as already exists in Age of Rebellion and Edge of the Empire. 

Thank you Sam, but if this question is coming up, and I've seen it before in the Forums for the Move power, it probably needs some additional clarification in the RAW just to be safe. Maybe a sidebar with an example of a Force User using the Move ability to move very large objects.

 

In fact sidebar example of how a lot of the powers should work would be really nice, space permitting of course.

Edited by FuriousGreg

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If the only reference for a power is from Force Unleashed, it doesn't count.

Hey, come on! Do you think my sole reference for anything in an RPG would be a video game?!

Yes, yes it would.

But that is not he case here. If you examine the source citation more closely, you will see that it says Corruption is found in the "Force Unleashed Campaign Guide ," a Saga Edition SWRPG supplement. In Saga Edition, this power can easily be flavored, and appropriately so, as Force and Destiny's "Unleash," especially when combined with a Force Secret for the aspiring Sith Lord.

The Dathomiri Lightning Storm didn't cover that large of an area.

No, but is it not feasible that such a power could be cast...remotely? Say, looking at the sky over yonder and thinking "that would be a good place for a sudden and very localized lighting storm."

The Force Storm is kind of represented here.

Thank you for the vote of confidence!

None of the others appear to be represented across that large a range.

Deadly Sight worked against people the Force user could see. So...that is kinda large-ish, range-wise.

With the other powers, they just require good aim. Or, again, they could be activated remotely. The Force user could (in theory) just take some extra effort to manifest the power somewhere else than "in the 9 feet directly in front of him."

TL;DR Ask for Legends sources and you shall receive.

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Pulling down one Star Destroyer? That's so 2008! With these strength upgrades a jedi master with 4 force die has a reasonable chance to pull down four star destroyers ( 1 force point to activate basic, 2 for 4*2 strength upgrades, 1 for magnitude upgrades and one for range upgrades)   

 

By RAW, no one is going to be able to replicate Starkiller's stunt of pulling down a Star Destroyer from extreme or even planetary ranges like we see in that game, because Range Upgrades for Force Power Move only increase the "maximum range", not the starting range of the object which is always short range.

 

So sure, you could try and pull down 4 Star Destroyers, but you've have to wait until they were a few metres away (i.e. short range) before you could do anything.

 

 

The grammar used in the sentences describing the Move power is open to interpretation.

 

 

The wording in the description seems quite clear to me in that it only affects maximum range.
 
Basic Power
The user may spend "pip" to move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range. The default maximum range is short range.
 
Range Upgrade
Spend "pip" to increase the maximum range at which the Force user can move objects by a number of range bands equal to the number of Range upgrades purchased.
 
But now I'm curious...are people applying Force Power Move's Range Upgrades to affect a target's starting range as well as it's maximum range? That's a bad@$$ houserule!

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Pulling down one Star Destroyer? That's so 2008! With these strength upgrades a jedi master with 4 force die has a reasonable chance to pull down four star destroyers ( 1 force point to activate basic, 2 for 4*2 strength upgrades, 1 for magnitude upgrades and one for range upgrades)   

 

By RAW, no one is going to be able to replicate Starkiller's stunt of pulling down a Star Destroyer from extreme or even planetary ranges like we see in that game, because Range Upgrades for Force Power Move only increase the "maximum range", not the starting range of the object which is always short range.

 

So sure, you could try and pull down 4 Star Destroyers, but you've have to wait until they were a few metres away (i.e. short range) before you could do anything.

 

 

The grammar used in the sentences describing the Move power is open to interpretation.

 

 

The wording in the description seems quite clear to me in that it only affects maximum range.
 
Basic Power
The user may spend "pip" to move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range. The default maximum range is short range.
 
Range Upgrade
Spend "pip" to increase the maximum range at which the Force user can move objects by a number of range bands equal to the number of Range upgrades purchased.
 
But now I'm curious...are people applying Force Power Move's Range Upgrades to affect a target's starting range as well as it's maximum range? That's a bad@$$ houserule!

 

My group is houseruling that so the power can be used for more then just combat.

With increased starting range you can actually do some more intricate and interesting things. 

In example, I used Force Move with a few strength and range upgrades to control a giant droids arm to throw the leader of a group of baddies to scare them off and avoid a big messy fight. (I did have fine manipulation)

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Pulling down one Star Destroyer? That's so 2008! With these strength upgrades a jedi master with 4 force die has a reasonable chance to pull down four star destroyers ( 1 force point to activate basic, 2 for 4*2 strength upgrades, 1 for magnitude upgrades and one for range upgrades)   

 

By RAW, no one is going to be able to replicate Starkiller's stunt of pulling down a Star Destroyer from extreme or even planetary ranges like we see in that game, because Range Upgrades for Force Power Move only increase the "maximum range", not the starting range of the object which is always short range.

 

So sure, you could try and pull down 4 Star Destroyers, but you've have to wait until they were a few metres away (i.e. short range) before you could do anything.

 

 

The grammar used in the sentences describing the Move power is open to interpretation.

 

 

The wording in the description seems quite clear to me in that it only affects maximum range.
 
Basic Power
The user may spend "pip" to move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range. The default maximum range is short range.
 
Range Upgrade
Spend "pip" to increase the maximum range at which the Force user can move objects by a number of range bands equal to the number of Range upgrades purchased.
 
But now I'm curious...are people applying Force Power Move's Range Upgrades to affect a target's starting range as well as it's maximum range? That's a bad@$$ houserule!

 

 

I think the sentence is clearly a dangling participle ( at least i think it is a dangling participle, english is not my first language but it is some sort of grammatical error that makes the sentence possible to interpret in more then one way).

But surely i could be wrong with this but i do not think i am.

 

But to the latter part, ofc i use what you call a house rule. I call it RAW, because that is how i think it should read.

 

Even if the rules says different, it is lame to only be able to lift something from short distance. It's clear that it move could be used beyond a few meters, everything else would just be lame.

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The wording in the description seems quite clear to me in that it only affects maximum range.
 
Basic Power
The user may spend "pip" to move one object of silhouette 0 that is within short range up to his maximum range. The default maximum range is short range.
 
Range Upgrade
Spend "pip" to increase the maximum range at which the Force user can move objects by a number of range bands equal to the number of Range upgrades purchased.
 
But now I'm curious...are people applying Force Power Move's Range Upgrades to affect a target's starting range as well as it's maximum range? That's a bad@$$ houserule!

 

 

Yes, the phrasing makes it wonky -- you can move things from short range to medium range, but not back again because wording.

 

Perhaps intead of "within" they mean "between"?  This "sphere of influence" interpretation would seem to make more intuitive sense.

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Protect/Unleash I wonder if the basic power has gotten too good, as I see a lot of the characters that are going to wind up taking this power having a Willpower of at least 4, meaning at least 9 points of damage negation (Protection) or just damage (Unleash) and likely to be much higher due to said characters having multiple ranks of Discipline as well.  Truthfully, I think that while the base number needed a boost, using double the character's Willpower is too good.  Perhaps as an alternative have it be 2 plus Willpower to determine the base for how much damage is negated/inflicted?  It's still a boost, but not a major one.

 

 

I don't think it is quite as good as it seems at first glance.  I don't have the book with me to reference but if I recall correctly the player will need a Force Rating of three just to buy it and at it's most basic level it can only protect against one attack and it must be an energy attack.  It is still very good for what it does and it got a nice boost but the application is still very limited with just the base power.

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