Goblin Sniper triggers for itself?

[Nizi 7]

The Goblin Archer of 48 threat from the Rivendell quests has a "forced" effect that deals 1 damage to a character for each enemy revealed, but does it count for the archer itself too? I'd assume not, but FFG has other games where cards do trigger for themselves (like Game of Thrones responses), so I'm asking just in case. Thanks.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

I have never triggered his ability off of himself.  But it's actually a good question, and here's why:

 

Forced abilities are referred to as "Forced effects" in the manual, but sometimes in the FAQ are also referred to as "Forced responses."  Maybe we can consider these as a type of Response.  Having said that...

 

Previous rulings have stated that you can activate a Response effect on a card that you just drew, off of a trigger that has just occurred, as long as the game state has not moved forward.  For example: Legolas has 2 weapons attached.  You have one copy of Foe-hammer in your hand.  Legolas defeats an enemy, then you play Foe-hammer to exhaust one weapon attachment and draw 3 cards.  You happen to draw another copy of Foe-hammer.  It is legal for you to immediately play Foe-hammer to exhaust another weapon attachment and draw 3 more cards, even though the second copy of Foe-hammer was in your deck at the time that the original trigger (defeating an enemy) went off.  (official ruling about that in an old thread here).

 

Ok, so let's apply the same thing to encounter card Forced responses.  The Goblin Archer comes into play.  His Forced effect says that when an enemy is revealed, you have to deal one damage to a character you control.  The current game state is "an enemy has just been revealed," and that game state won't change until you reveal the next card.  So applying the same logic as above, this trigger should activate, and the Goblin should deal one damage.

 

What do others think?

[l3afonthewind 33]

Ok, so let's apply the same thing to encounter card Forced responses.  The Goblin Archer comes into play.  His Forced effect says that when an enemy is revealed, you have to deal one damage to a character you control.  The current game state is "an enemy has just been revealed," and that game state won't change until you reveal the next card.  So applying the same logic as above, this trigger should activate, and the Goblin should deal one damage.

 

What do others think?

 

100% agree. 

[jjeagle 48]

 

Ok, so let's apply the same thing to encounter card Forced responses.  The Goblin Archer comes into play.  His Forced effect says that when an enemy is revealed, you have to deal one damage to a character you control.  The current game state is "an enemy has just been revealed," and that game state won't change until you reveal the next card.  So applying the same logic as above, this trigger should activate, and the Goblin should deal one damage.

 

What do others think?

 

100% agree. 

 

Agree also.

[Dwarf king Bronze beard 48]

I don´t never get bored to this game since i always play something wrong and then i have to play that quest again to get new highscore

 

Well at least i don´t have to play all quests again since Goblin Archer doesn´t include in every quest.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Dwarf king Bronze beard

[Glaurung 444]

Hmmmm sound interesting. I also never trigger his effect on himself but according to your logic yes sounds like you right….

Edited October 28, 2014 by Glaurung

[Jban 59]

Disagree.

 

I think he doesn't trigger himself. Why?

 

Because Keywords/Responses/Text/Forced only get triggered while the cards are in play. When revealing cards, you first examine the card, before you add it to the staging area (they aren't in play before they enter the staging area if I recall correctly). 

Possible things for this examine moment:"Examine"

• Thalin
• Expecting Mischief
• Eleanor
• Test of Will
• Frodo (Black Riders)
• When Revealed effects
• (maby also Minas tirith Lampwright - unsure)

So if I follow this logic, the forced only gets triggered after the card is added to the staging area, which results into not triggering himself.

[alogos 171]

Because Keywords/Responses/Text/Forced only get triggered while the cards are in play. When revealing cards, you first examine the card, before you add it to the staging area (they aren't in play before they enter the staging area if I recall correctly). 

So if I follow this logic, the forced only gets triggered after the card is added to the staging area, which results into not triggering himself.

 

Yes they are. They are in play, but not yet in the staging area (where are they, then, I don't know...)

[Teamjimby 630]

Someone email Caleb.

 

Edit: I emailed in the question.  Will post results when I get them.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Teamjimby

[Jban 59]

Once again I took the rulebook:

 

"In Play"

• Cards that have been played (put into play)
• Cards waiting in the staging area
• currently revealed questcard
• encounter cards engaged with players

"Out Play"

• Cards in a player's hand
• Cards in a deck
• Cards in a discard pile.

So no clarification on this part. Or do I miss something?

[FetaCheese 194]

As the Sniper is being revealed, he hasnt been added to the staging area yet. he doesnt count as beingin play and his ability wont trigger. In other card game, we could say that he is "in the stack", an ambivalent state nor in nor outside the game.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Well, some enemies make an attack 'when revealed.'  This occurs when the card is not in the staging area.

 

Can an 'out of play' enemy attack you?  Can an 'out of play' card be dealt a shadow card?  Cards that have been revealed are much more sensibly considered 'in play.'

[-nebur- 11]

Well, some enemies make an attack 'when revealed.'  This occurs when the card is not in the staging area.

 

Can an 'out of play' enemy attack you?  Can an 'out of play' card be dealt a shadow card?  Cards that have been revealed are much more sensibly considered 'in play.'

 

The only enemies which attack by a 'when revealed' effect are these 2 (if I didn't missed someone):

 

     

 

Southron Commander says himself, that he attacks from staging area.

...and Smaug...hm...he is Smaug

 

Both sides have some logical aspects...but i think we need an official answer.

Edited October 30, 2014 by -nebur-

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

This guy too:

 

[Distractionbeast 132]

As I read it, I would not trigger the effect for himself because:

 

It is a Forced effect, not a When Revealed effect.  When the enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, passive, response and forced effects are not active because he has not actually entered play yet.  When revealed effects, however, would be active because they are specifically designed to trigger at this time.  Until the when revealed effect is resolved, the card is not considered to be in the staging area and other effects would not trigger.  Once the reveal of the card is complete, it enters play and it's forced effect becomes active, waiting for the next card to trigger it.

 

That's my take at least.  I've been wrong before and it's hard to predict how an official ruling will come down sometimes.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Hmm, maybe since 'revealing' a card and 'adding it to the staging area' are two separate actions... Once the Goblin is 'added to the staging area,' and his Forced effect is able to be triggered, we have already passed the game state in which he has been 'revealed' and it won't trigger...?

[Jban 59]

That's my thought, GrandSpleen.
 

[Teamjimby 630]

Official response from Caleb:

 

Hi Jim,
Yes, the Goblin Archer will trigger its own effect after it is revealed.
Cheers,
Caleb

 

I was hoping for a more expanded response that explains why it triggers, but at least we have an answer.

[MightyRauros 20]

Never would have guessed that, but that's why we ask, eh?

[PsychoRocka 1,189]

Dodgy...... kind of getting really sick of all these rulings that actually seem really wrong or conflict with other rulings or rules.

Also when we are given no reasoning or explanation as to why this happens it is even more frustrating =\

If this game has one weakness it is most definitely the rules which is a bit sad considering how great the game is. I really wish they had this stuff more down pat before powering ahead.... almost makes the game seem a little broken.

[Jban 59]

I've been thinking for a reason why this should hold and my conclusion is as follows:

 

Because "When Revealed" effects are a special case of "Forced" effects, we could as well state that "When Revealed" effects are a subset of the possible "Forced" effects. Because "When Revealed" effects get triggered upon entry, we conclude that "Forced" effects get triggered upon entry. So if a "Forced" effect would get triggered, if it had written "When Revealed" instead of "Forced", it will get triggered upon entry of the game.

It's the most convincing I could come up with...

 

Ps: Play Thalin ot prevent mistakes on these matter!!

 

[legolas18 114]

So... On the same note (kind of), in the Dead Marshes quest, there's one location that says:

"When Revealed: Put one resource token on Gollum for each location in the staging area." Or something to that effect. Following the vague ruling we got, would that mean that it counts itself as a location, therefore putting a resource token on Gollum as well as others?

Just found the card, it's Impassable Bog.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

It would NOT count itself, would it?  We have a pretty directly analogous thing in the FAQ:

 

-------------

Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging

area?

A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an

attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in the staging area or engaged with the defending player unless a card effect says it is.

-------------

 

So the 'when revealed' effect on Impassable Bog would be resolved before Impassable Bog itself is in the staging area.  

 

The Goblin Archer's Forced text doesn't say anything about the staging area, so we don't have to worry about an interaction there.  What I've kind of taken from the Archer thing is that, maybe?, since 'reveal' and 'reveal and add to the staging area' mean the same thing, the Goblin will trigger its own effect.  Again from the FAQ:

--------

"If a card effect uses the phase “Reveal and add to the staging area”, it means the same as simply using the word “reveal”, and the above steps should still be followed (i.e. treachery cards should still be discarded after resolving its effects, unless otherwise indicated by the card’s text)."

-----------

With that in mind we could, uhh maybe?,  accurately re-write the Archer's text as follows:

 

Forced: After an enemy is revealed and added to the staging area, the first player must deal 1 damage to 1 character he controls.

[Glaurung 444]

Hmmm that means if enemy is attacking by when revealed effect from staging area you cannot target him by Sneak attack Gandalf since he is not in the game yet???

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

Good question.  I don't know.  The enemy is definitely "in play," but in the ill-defined limbo of being between the staging area and being revealed.  That's one of those  murky points that I've never seen clarified.  So I'm not sure what restrictions we have... Thalin, for example, does his damage get placed on an enemy before it is technically in the staging area?

 

Gandalf might be able to damage such an enemy since his text simply says the enemy needs to be in play, but something like Hands Upon the Bow, for example, could not, since it specifically says the enemy needs to be in the staging area.