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Hrathen

Wow, was the "Discrimination Against Females in X-wing" thread deleted by FFG?

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Being a white male, I really don't feel I can comment on whether things like this are an indication of sexism with any degree of accuracy. I believe that nobody can truly know whether or not something is sexist or racist unless you're a member of the sex or race which is being targeted. And that can be a confusing thing in an of itself.

 

...

 

As far as bubblepopmei, I believe that it's she who has the right to tell me if what I'm saying or doing is sexist, not me or any other guy. Personally, I try to treat everyone as human, not just male or female. It works most of the time. I hold doors for everyone I see if they're behind me, because it's a polite thing to do, not just because of chivalry of some kind. And if I think a girl or woman wants to play X-wing, I'll ask them and give them a fair opportunity to play it. I'll go easy on them, as I do all new players, male or female, so they'll get the hang of the mechanics before they have to deal with me.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this outsourced subjectivity. Yes, the recipient can feel the discrimination without the person who is expressing himself intending the discrimination. Sure, there is language that conveys a white-male-centered worldview, and sometimes we're slaves to our worldviews, but at the same time people with the right intentions shouldn't be discounted just because of a faulty choice of words.

 

 

You're free to disagree with it; I wouldn't hold it against you. Personally, my own beliefs are that it's better to be safe than sorry, and I dislike offending people because I usually try to make the world a better place, since it likely won't get that way on its own. I'd rather live in a society where people are people, not men or women. Recognizing differences while celebrating commonality.

 

I also believe that I am the one accountable for what I say and how I choose to say it. If I've said something to offend someone, then I'll apologize and try to do better next time (I do analyze what I said and see if it was really just them being overly sensitive, but that's beside the point here). I won't hold it to them to accept what I said and how I said it simply because I was ignorant of the proper way to say it, because it is I, not they, who control what I say and how it's said. Thus I try to be careful with my tone and choice of words, moreso on the internet because tone is difficult to convey properly online.

 

For the record, I do happen to live with a feminist roommate who is quite level-headed and has opened my eyes to the reality of the situation. I do find myself agreeing with her on many issues regarding women and how they're treated in society as a whole, so this definitely colors my judgement. But if the net result of this coloration is that I end up treating women equally well as I do men, then I figure that's just fine.

 

I believe one problem is that some people will find anything and everything insulting/sexist and so on.

In the end we can end up in a society where you are two afraid to say something because it can be taken the wrong way.

So yes, I disagree that everything is up to the recipient to decide. 

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You're right, I'm sure that kind of distinction is exactly what keeps women away from miniatures games.

So, for whatever reason we can no longer refer to women as 'females,' lest their feelings be hurt. Alright. How long will it be until someone takes issue with the term 'woman'? Etymologically, it comes from the Old English 'wife' + 'man.' I guess instead of referring to a woman with a term that is both purely technical and objective (they are females, aren't they?), it's more appropriate to refer to them by their defining social role and their association with the more dominant gender. That's much more fitting, and not anywhere near as sexist, dehumanizing, or insensitive, right?

You know that in Old English, "mann" has no connotation of "male", right? It literally translates as "person", and was used for both genders. You must know, because you know the etymology, which makes that comment more than a little disingenuous. "Wife" in that context doesn't relate to marriage either, it means "weaver". "Woman" therefore translates as "person who weaves".

The reason "female" as a noun is frowned upon is because it is commonly used as a pejorative, and I guarantee you know that too. You're a smart person, if a slightly annoying one :)

I find that people are often annoyed when their sensibilities are challenged. I'm curious, what circles do you hang in where the term 'female' is used as a pejorative?

Incidentally, you may have underscored my point for me. Sometimes words evolve to take on new meanings, and sometimes it's simply our understanding of those words that evolve. Regardless of what 'man' and 'woman' might have once meant, they now have distinct genders associated with each of them. As intelligent as you or I might be, the etymological origins of those words won't matter one bit to somebody who suddenly decides that they're insensitive. To wit, connotations are meaningless to someone who's looking for any excuse to be offended. If you find my observation in post #82 to be absurd, that's because it was designed to match the absurdity of this current mishegoss. I can only hope that some misguided soul doesn't find my use of Yiddish to be offensive, on account of the word 'she' being in the middle of it...

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Being a white male, I really don't feel I can comment on whether things like this are an indication of sexism with any degree of accuracy. I believe that nobody can truly know whether or not something is sexist or racist unless you're a member of the sex or race which is being targeted. And that can be a confusing thing in an of itself.

 

...

 

As far as bubblepopmei, I believe that it's she who has the right to tell me if what I'm saying or doing is sexist, not me or any other guy. Personally, I try to treat everyone as human, not just male or female. It works most of the time. I hold doors for everyone I see if they're behind me, because it's a polite thing to do, not just because of chivalry of some kind. And if I think a girl or woman wants to play X-wing, I'll ask them and give them a fair opportunity to play it. I'll go easy on them, as I do all new players, male or female, so they'll get the hang of the mechanics before they have to deal with me.

 

I'm not sure I agree with this outsourced subjectivity. Yes, the recipient can feel the discrimination without the person who is expressing himself intending the discrimination. Sure, there is language that conveys a white-male-centered worldview, and sometimes we're slaves to our worldviews, but at the same time people with the right intentions shouldn't be discounted just because of a faulty choice of words.

 

 

You're free to disagree with it; I wouldn't hold it against you. Personally, my own beliefs are that it's better to be safe than sorry, and I dislike offending people because I usually try to make the world a better place, since it likely won't get that way on its own. I'd rather live in a society where people are people, not men or women. Recognizing differences while celebrating commonality.

 

I also believe that I am the one accountable for what I say and how I choose to say it. If I've said something to offend someone, then I'll apologize and try to do better next time (I do analyze what I said and see if it was really just them being overly sensitive, but that's beside the point here). I won't hold it to them to accept what I said and how I said it simply because I was ignorant of the proper way to say it, because it is I, not they, who control what I say and how it's said. Thus I try to be careful with my tone and choice of words, moreso on the internet because tone is difficult to convey properly online.

 

For the record, I do happen to live with a feminist roommate who is quite level-headed and has opened my eyes to the reality of the situation. I do find myself agreeing with her on many issues regarding women and how they're treated in society as a whole, so this definitely colors my judgement. But if the net result of this coloration is that I end up treating women equally well as I do men, then I figure that's just fine.

 

I believe one problem is that some people will find anything and everything insulting/sexist and so on.

In the end we can end up in a society where you are two afraid to say something because it can be taken the wrong way.

So yes, I disagree that everything is up to the recipient to decide. 

 

It's only a problem if you let it control you. I do not. I take what they say and consider it, and if it's mostly objective, then I will take it to heart and modify my behavior accordingly. It's usually pretty obvious if someone's being overly sensitive though, at least to me, and I ignore those people, and sometimes I even call them on it. So I see nothing wrong with my philosophy, from that respect.

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I find that people are often annoyed when their sensibilities are challenged. I'm curious, what circles do you hang in where the term 'female' is used as a pejorative?

Work. I work in industrial chemical logistics, and it means I deal with people in both the chemical and transport fields. Both are very male dominated, and in both when someone refers to "a female" or "that female" it's in an extremely sexist, misogynistic context.

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Work. I work in industrial chemical logistics, and it means I deal with people in both the chemical and transport fields. Both are very male dominated, and in both when someone refers to "a female" or "that female" it's in an extremely sexist, misogynistic context.

 

I think we can agree that context makes all the difference in the world, can't we?

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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As a side note I think FFG is doing great by including more and more women on the X-Wing miniatures cards (be it pilots or copilots or crew or whatever). They are unearthing little known characters and putting them on the front, which is really great because inclusiveness has been lacking for a loooooooooooong time in our white-cis-male-dominated hobbies.

 

So kudos to FFG, continue on this track.

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Ah, sorry, but I kind of figured that with how ridiculous my post was, that it would be obvious that I was joking.

 

 

Eh. It's one of the risks inherent in online discussions like this. When we talk to others a good 50% of the conversation occurs non-verbally. But when we're just talking via text like this a great deal of that is lost, so the reader must try to piece together what was meant. And that can be strongly influenced by whatever they just read before, had been thinking about or any other personal characteristics unique to each person. 

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As a side note I think FFG is doing great by including more and more women on the X-Wing miniatures cards (be it pilots or copilots or crew or whatever). They are unearthing little known characters and putting them on the front, which is really great because inclusiveness has been lacking for a loooooooooooong time in our white-cis-male-dominated hobbies.

 

So kudos to FFG, continue on this track.

 

Maybe in character design for Imperial Assault, but I don't buy for a second that pilot choices in X-wing are any more than whichever characters they can dig up.

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I'm not sure what people even plan to do with any information we might actually get out of the ashes of this discussion. Let's assume for a second that we did manage to nail down a couple of reasons that this game has such a gender imbalance. We'll also assume that it actually is unique to X-Wing, and not as prominent with other wargames. What then? 

 

If something about the rules is keeping girls from developing or maintaining an interest, then our options are to make fundamental changes to the game or just accept the gender imbalance and move on. Making dramatic changes is unlikely to happen, and historically wouldn't end well. Nobody wins.

 

If the theme (spaceships fighting each other) doesn't appeal to girls than little can be done. The girls who are interested in the game should obviously be greeted and treated with the level of courtesy we should show to any human being, but if a girl looks at the game and isn't interested what can you do? I wouldn't harass a guy to start playing it, I'm not going to do that to a girl just because "we need more girls playing this game". If anything the idea of specifically trying to recruit girls to play X-Wing sounds kind of creepy to me.

 

If the issue is people being rude or hostile to the girls that do show interest, than we need to shut that down immediately. I have no patience for that kind of behaviour and neither should anyone else. I won't treat someone better based on their race or gender but I won't stand for someone being treated worse for that reason either. That hasn't been an issue with my playgroup, but it could be a problem elsewhere. 

 

Basically, what I'm trying to get at here is making some kind of coordinated effort to get women playing this game seems really weird and unnecessary to me. If there are people being rude and driving away interested parties then we should step in enforce a little civility, but it could easily just be that girls aren't that interested in this game for a mix of reasons that don't have sexism as a cause. 

 

Well said. I think that what what can really come from this is that we can each carry this forward on a personal level and that might make a huge difference. I've known guys from time to time (gamers and nongamers) who've acted in ways that were pretty offensive to women. For gamers, what I found is that simple social pressure works wonders if it's perceived. Looking over at the offending guy and saying (without rancor) "dude, please stop. what you're saying is really hurtful" or something along those lines will generally stop the behavior. Most guys will realize that they've crossed a line and will pull back. Some might escalate the issue but if you keep from attacking them and try to get across that it's not them but what they said that's hurtful, then that will usually help. It doesn't always work, but it does work. 

The trick is to not patronize, insult, or attack them or else you put them on the defense and nothing good will happen. 

 

 

 

I find that people are often annoyed when their sensibilities are challenged. I'm curious, what circles do you hang in where the term 'female' is used as a pejorative?

Work. I work in industrial chemical logistics, and it means I deal with people in both the chemical and transport fields. Both are very male dominated, and in both when someone refers to "a female" or "that female" it's in an extremely sexist, misogynistic context.

 

 

Yeah. Context is important. When you're talking about a person in particular, certain words like "male" and "female" can be dehumanizing, especially when used vaguely. It's using a detached, clinical term for a person who by social norms should be referred to in a more personal manner. 

Edited by Thenightgaunt

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Ah, sorry, but I kind of figured that with how ridiculous my post was, that it would be obvious that I was joking.

 

Eh. It's one of the risks inherent in online discussions like this. When we talk to others a good 50% of the conversation occurs non-verbally. But when we're just talking via text like this a great deal of that is lost, so the reader must try to piece together what was meant. And that can be strongly influenced by whatever they just read before, had been thinking about or any other personal characteristics unique to each person.

Yeah, it was my bad. Sarcasm is hard to read in text. Plus I'm new to using forums, this being my first to use and having only started using it a few months ago, and I rarely communicate via text if the conversation can't be had in a sentence or two. And truth be told, there are a lot of people out there that think in such a simple manner, so it's understandable that

someone might take it seriously. I really shouldn't be making jokes about the matter anyway, it is a rather serious topic.

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As a side note I think FFG is doing great by including more and more women on the X-Wing miniatures cards...

While I have no trouble with women pilots, I don't believe that adding more of them will bring a sudden influx of women into this game. I already pointed out a 100% female faction in 40k and yet there's no more women playing that game now then there was before the Sisters of Battle were introduced.

So just adding more women pilots isn't likely to change anything.

We have to ask the question of there's anything at all we can do that will change anything. Perhaps there's simply something about mini-war gaming that women generally don't like. I know a number of women gamers, but they have zero interest in mini war gaming. They enjoy RPG's, they play MMO's, they even play MtG...

I was at the FFG event center the other day, and there were a ton of women there. So many in fact that my friend commented on it, I'd say that maybe 40% of the people there were women in fact, but there wasn't a single one playing any sort of miniature game.

I think that worries about us becoming like video game communities is also completely unfounded, because we lack the level of anonymity that those communities offer. Without a computer screen to hide behind, we have to actually witness the effects of our behavior in person. Sure we have this message board, but even then a lot of us actually will or at least may meet IRL, to play a game.

A final thought about gaming in the 80's, which is when I started. A lot of the issues with women gamers was the marketing by the companies themselves. When the cover of nearly every adventure or sourcebook has a barely dressed woman in chains, or otherwise helpless waiting for the male hero to save her... Is it surprising that women didn't feel welcome? It was honestly less the community and more the marketing that caused issues. Because IME any woman who joined a group was if anything made uncomfortable with how eager people were to make her feel welcome...

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Gaming groups can also be influenced by culture. I RPG'd in conventions in Ontario and there were women players but no where near equal amounts. I then traveled to Quebec for a game convention and was blown away at how many women were in the mix. French culture seems to have something that draws more women to come out for gaming. And I have absolutely no idea what it is.

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You're right, I'm sure that kind of distinction is exactly what keeps women away from miniatures games.

So, for whatever reason we can no longer refer to women as 'females,' lest their feelings be hurt. Alright. How long will it be until someone takes issue with the term 'woman'? Etymologically, it comes from the Old English 'wife' + 'man.' I guess instead of referring to a woman with a term that is both purely technical and objective (they are females, aren't they?), it's more appropriate to refer to them by their defining social role and their association with the more dominant gender. That's much more fitting, and not anywhere near as sexist, dehumanizing, or insensitive, right?

You know that in Old English, "mann" has no connotation of "male", right? It literally translates as "person", and was used for both genders. You must know, because you know the etymology, which makes that comment more than a little disingenuous. "Wife" in that context doesn't relate to marriage either, it means "weaver". "Woman" therefore translates as "person who weaves".

The reason "female" as a noun is frowned upon is because it is commonly used as a pejorative, and I guarantee you know that too. You're a smart person, if a slightly annoying one :)

This too is inaccurate. Entry from Wikipedia:

"The spelling of woman in English has progressed over the past millennium from wīfmann to wīmmann to wumman, and finally, the modern spelling woman. In Old English, wīfmann meant "female human", whereas wēr meant "male human". Mann or monn had a gender-neutral meaning of "human", corresponding to Modern English "person" or "someone", however subsequent to the Norman Conquest, man began to be used more in reference to "male human", and by the late 1200s had begun to eclipse usage of the older term wēr. The medial labial consonants f and m in wīfmann coalesced into the modern form "woman", while the initial element, which meant "female", underwent semantic narrowing to the sense of a married woman ("wife")."

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It's because nerd gamers tend to fart more, and then...

8799_b8a6.jpeg

 

Seriously i still don't understand why this needs to be discussed, women are people, men are people, treat each other like you would like to be treated and stop making such big deals about genders.

Edited by DreadStar

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I really don't think discussing semantics of certain words brings this conversation further. Nor does **** jokes for that matter.

EDIT: Seems I cannot even refer to DreadStar's joke as the forum autocorrects the use of the word, hence the asterisks. Probably a hint that it doesn't belong here, even if posted through a pictures and thus not caught in autocorrect.

Edited by Cremate

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As a side note I think FFG is doing great by including more and more women on the X-Wing miniatures cards...

While I have no trouble with women pilots, I don't believe that adding more of them will bring a sudden influx of women into this game. I already pointed out a 100% female faction in 40k and yet there's no more women playing that game now then there was before the Sisters of Battle were introduced.

So just adding more women pilots isn't likely to change anything.

 

As I've noted in my earlier post, I think the problem lies at the core of the OT movies: women were non-existent in space combat. 

 

The solution isn't to add female pilots but the source material (the movies that most of us here grew up with) needed to incorporate a stronger female presence in space.

 

It would be cool if the next "Wedge" type of ace in episode 7 was a woman :)

 

I don't think you can use 40k as a comparison because the Star Wars movies have such a large audience and are very well known :)

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This thread has been locked for one reason only – to answer the question asked in its title. Visit the first post of the thread for my answer.

 

Please create a new thread if you truly believe there is value in continuing a conversation about gender in X-Wing.

 

However, you should also know that we are taking a firmer stance with threads that do not discuss the parent forum's product directly. They may be locked or deleted without warning if the content strays too far from the original subject, or if it is deemed off-topic. These forums are not a platform for off-topic conversation, but to discuss the products that FFG publishes and that you presumably play. There are countless non-FFG communities online where discussions about any topic can be had, without reproach.

 

Thank you in advance for your understanding,

FFG Webmaster

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