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Hrathen

Wow, was the "Discrimination Against Females in X-wing" thread deleted by FFG?

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I doubt they will pass up the opportunity to throw Ru Merleen into an X-wing cockpit.

I'm kinda surprised they haven't already. Ru would've made a much better choice for a named E-Wing pilot then Etahn.

Etahn as far as I can tell never flew a fighter in any battle, but rather was well known a great fleet commander. Ru was a great pilot and great shot, so would've made much more sense IMO.

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I doubt they will pass up the opportunity to throw Ru Merleen into an X-wing cockpit.

I'm kinda surprised they haven't already. Ru would've made a much better choice for a named E-Wing pilot then Etahn.Etahn as far as I can tell never flew a fighter in any battle, but rather was well known a great fleet commander. Ru was a great pilot and great shot, so would've made much more sense IMO.

I know, right? I was also confused by Etahn's inclusion if only because he Captained a frigate of some sort during the Battle of Endor. I read later on that he had E-wings assigned to him but I think he was a Cap-ship guy 100%.

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Keep in mind the "Terms of Use" at the bottom of the page.

 

If there is an issue with FFG I am certain you can contact them directly to voice your concerns. That might actually be better than just posting a SJW rant on a forum.

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Isn't Ru Murleen a covert operative though, not a fighter pilot?

 

Unless the characters they represent are male or female.

 

You're flying "Han Solo", not "YT-1300 with Pilot Skill 9".

 

Literally just a name on a card. No characterisation involved. Might as well call it PS9 Unique YT-1300 for all the difference it would make. In the context of the game itself these are just names.

 

This could make it harder for a woman to relate to the theme, as it seems like it's just men in ships shooting other men in ships

 

That's borderline sexist in of itself. Would you be inhibited in "relating" to X-wing if the vast majority of the pilots had feminine names? No.

 

Plus hailing Howlrunner as a triumph of female representation is about as nonsensical as accusing the TIE bomber of being a sexist expansion pack.

 

This game better represents women in the fiction than the source material ever did, but damned if anybody outside of serious Star Wars fans would know.

 

I wouldn't class a name on a card as representing much at all, let alone making some sort of social standpoint.

Besides, as you said, unless you're deep into EU you neither know who most of the pilots are nor likely care that much.


Maybe FFG should focus on making more of the "Alternate Art" promo cards for the Tournament Kits feature the likes of Howlrunner, Jan, Kath.  They've already got Fel and Ten Numb as examples of headshots that aren't the popular characters from the movies, so it's time to get on it.

 

And what difference would that make? My point about this whole debate being completely nonsensical in an X-wing context aside, if you're getting tournament promos you're kind of already into the game, no?

 

For those who're not yet convinced that suggesting FFG are somehow gender discriminating with their pilot choices in X-wing is just plain silly, by your own logic X-wing is also racist. Much moreso than it is sexist.

 

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Edited by TIE Pilot

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The title of the thread implied there is discrimination going on in X-Wing. I don't think FFG would want anyone even seeing that in the thread list. Bad PR. I'm betting thats why it was deleted.

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Well, the whole Gamergate thing went over the deep end a long while ago.

I cannot think of any discriminating elements to the design or artwork of this game, but that's not really where the discussion ends. It is all about the people and about the community around the game. Or, rather, communities, as there is no single X-Wing community. We're all spread in localised areas, either geographically or on various online sites, making it impossible to nail it with sweeping statements meant to apply to them all.

That being said, I have experienced in some of those x-wing communities, that the tone isn't always the most welcoming to women, either explicitly or implicitly, though more often the latter. This need not be a neon sign to tell women that they are not welcome: just the use of language that either exclusively assume women to be lesser players or language that reduce them to their sexual attributes.

It's not a problem specific to X-Wing, but a challenge to anyone about to enter a hobby in which there is an eskewed gender representation and it something to keep in mind, to not discourage those brave souls who might be considering to enter the hobby, but are still howering around its fringes. Especially on the internet where you don't know your audience. It might at times feel like a 'boy's/gents room', but you never know who'll read your posts or see the derogatory comments you are sharing (as when I see people post on a X-Wing forum about wanting to "probe" this or that Star Wars or X-Wing-related female's "vagidroid" or expressing their interest in ****** this or that female player in an X-Wing video).

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I envy people who can get their wives / significant others to play X-Wing. *sigh*

 

I'm actually very impressed by the male/female ratio in the pilot cards as well and hope that continues. It's never going to be 50/50 because that's clearly not how it was in the Star Wars universe but I think it's been very well balanced.

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Females are generally a minority in game stores but it is not a rule. I've been to a few that are the opposite with mostly female staff and customers. I honestly haven't seen any females treated badly at the game store, maybe you guys just play at dumps with ogres.

But I still think it is sexist for you guys to believe it falls to you to stand up for the little helpless ladies. They surely could not stand on their own, right? Don't play the sexist shining knight. Women are quite capable of being assertive and confident, treat them like anyone else and you will see.

I've only played xwing with two females, one is a girlfriend of a friend, the other a 10 year old girl at the store who's father also plays. I didn't have to save either and all enjoyed a game.

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Personally, I never understood why females would get into X-wing in the first place  :P

 

I don't blame them. I mean, this article is incredible:

 

http://kotaku.com/5967701/wow-there-were-four-female-pilots-cut-from-return-of-the-jedi/

 

There simply isn't a single female pilot in the OT which may cause a lack of relatedness to female audiences, hence why you don't see a lot of female X-wing players.

 

And perhaps (and I realize this a HUGE stretch here) that the discrimination against the handful of female X-wing players may stem from the belief that females simply don't have a role in space combat. 

 

It's interesting because I know there are quite a few females who love Star Wars, but I've never come across one that takes a particular interest in flying an X-wing/TIE fighter. But I'm only speaking from my experience  :)

 

On a side note, I'd feel more comfortable trying to sell the idea of Imperial Assault to a female who has no interest in Star Wars because at least she could play as a badass female jedi/smuggler. The miniature has a strong presence on the board. 

 

With X-wing, I think the person has to start with that passion to fly a spaceship, and that's something that's much more difficult to teach haha.

 

EDIT: ya, I'm basically agreeing with cleardave 

Edited by Armandhammer

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This thread is a waste of space, time and just stirs up a non issue into an issue.

Not many girls are into xwing because we are all racist, sexist, xenophobes. Clearly. /sarcasm

Like. Come on. OP is trolling or has nothing to contribute to the forum. Pretty simple.

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FFG seems to have major issues with any debate involving gender role and/or identity. It doesn't help when there are a handful of people who, for whatever reason, can't handle a levelheaded conversation and jump straight to accusations of misogyny. I can't imagine how many misguided report attempts go through those fingertips, especially over something as trivial as a statement like 'Echo and Whisper are men.' 

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Now this may seem strange to all you, but my gaming group has more women interested in X-wing than men. There are three of us guys that are regulars, 2 girls that were regulars (one moved across the country recently, so that's over), 2 girls that have played and are always happy to make it when they can, one that after a single game got so hooked she started doing research into the game's strategies (life has been getting in the way, though), and 2 more that have shown an interest in playing. Compare that to the one guy we lost (he was "losing too much" so it bored him, he can go play his screamo and video games in his room for all I care) and two others who are interested in playing.

As I have said before, a lot comes down to how one presents the game. If it is in a relaxed setting such as a friend's house, for example, it can put people more at ease than if it is at the Gaming Store (which, for better or worse, do have a rather bad reputation). Also, the most important thing to remember is NEVER hold back from asking someone (and this applies to people of both genders) if they would be interested in playing, even if you don't think they would be interested. I mean, one of the girl's who has expressed interest in playing is a professional model and as close to the stereotypical "girly-girl" as you could get; yet, she likes the concept of the game and wants to play. Most of the time they'll at least play once; then, if they decide it's not for them at least you know it isn't because of anything you or your group have done. It simply isn't their style of fun.

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But I still think it is sexist for you guys to believe it falls to you to stand up for the little helpless ladies. They surely could not stand on their own, right? Don't play the sexist shining knight. Women are quite capable of being assertive and confident, treat them like anyone else and you will see.

Calling someone out when they're being an a-hole, regardless of whether they are doing it to a woman or otherwise, isn't white-knighting. It's being a decent human being. If you are part of a group and someone new wants to be involved, but they are being treated badly because of their gender, and you stay quiet about it? You're giving tacit approval to that behaviour.

If your gaming group is predominantly one race (mine is) and a person of another race turns up but gets subjected to racist comments, would you do anything about it? It's the same situation if we substitute gender. Or whatever other difference. It's just basic bloody manners.

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I don't believe that is it the fluff side of Star Wars is what puts women off of playing the game. It would be the style/complexity of the game itself first that would draw them or not. 

 

I presented this issue to my wife yesterday, who is not a fan of Star Wars. She did try her hand at piloting the YT-1300 as she is a fan of Han Solo but she only played one game and was disinterested in continuing.

 

For her it is the gameplay that she doesn't like. She told me that "it's so boring and stupid that women don't want to play it" would be a good reason for the low turnout. She added "it's so repetitive" and "it doesn't engage my imagination".

 

I would like it if she played but my wife just isn't into the game the way I am so I can see why women may not like the game the way us guys do. They imagine things differently, are interested in things that are different from us, and have different interests that may or may not cross over into the tabletop miniature strategy realm.

 

I would be curious to know from women who do play the game how they feel when playing and what drew them to playing the game.

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Women, guys. *Women*. Perhaps if we stopped referring to actual people as "females" that would be a great start. It's dehumanising.

 

That's exactly the kind of oversensitivity that gets people all riled up. Perhaps if we stopped worrying about how PC our words are people would stop getting hurt over trivial details. 

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Women, guys. *Women*. Perhaps if we stopped referring to actual people as "females" that would be a great start. It's dehumanising.

 

That's exactly the kind of oversensitivity that gets people all riled up. Perhaps if we stopped worrying about how PC our words are people would stop getting hurt over trivial details. 

 

 

Its this exact comment that is gonna get this thread locked.  This IS the exact problem in the industry and why women don't feel welcome.  And I don't buy the reasoning one bit.  This line of reasoning is the height of avoiding the problem and pretending that it doesn't exist.  This isn't about "political correctness".  That's a cop out. That's a "tolerance" word.  This is about respect.   I know very few people who have accomplished anything without reasoned respectful discourse.  They get ahead by respecting.  Your comment is what gets me riled up.  

 

If we want to accept women as part of the hobby and get their participation and business, we need to stop tolerating and start respecting.

Edited by klecser

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Women, guys. *Women*. Perhaps if we stopped referring to actual people as "females" that would be a great start. It's dehumanising.

 

That's exactly the kind of oversensitivity that gets people all riled up. Perhaps if we stopped worrying about how PC our words are people would stop getting hurt over trivial details. 

 

 

Its this exact comment that is gonna get this thread locked.  This IS the exact problem in the industry and why women don't feel welcome.  And I don't buy it one bit.  This line of reasoning is the height of avoiding the problem and pretending that it doesn't exist.  This isn't about "political correctness".  That's a cop out. That's a "tolerance" word.  This is about respect.   I know very few people who have accomplished anything without reasoned respectful discourse.  They get ahead by respecting.  Your comment is what gets me riled up.  

 

 

I would take people being nice but misusing words over a**holes who stay within the limits of political correctness every time.

 

I believe it would be better for a new generation to not even consider gender, race, etc. , than for them to be taught that you should be nice to the "other" people.

 

It's not pretending that the problem doesn't exist, it's detaching oneself from the problem in order to be nice no matter who is staying in front of you.

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Its this exact comment that is gonna get this thread locked.  This IS the exact problem in the industry and why women don't feel welcome.  And I don't buy the reasoning one bit.  This line of reasoning is the height of avoiding the problem and pretending that it doesn't exist.  This isn't about "political correctness".  That's a cop out. That's a "tolerance" word.  This is about respect.   I know very few people who have accomplished anything without reasoned respectful discourse.  They get ahead by respecting.  Your comment is what gets me riled up.  

 

If we want to accept women as part of the hobby and get their participation and business, we need to stop tolerating and start respecting.

 

When I was a child, I was taught something about "sticks 'n stones." Either I'm just overly mature, or people aren't brought up that way anymore.

 

There is no problem except for people being overly sensitive. If someone is put off because we use the word 'female' instead of 'woman,' they probably have more important things to worry about in their life. The former is anything but disrespectful, but there might be something to be said about a sense of entitlement.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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Read this and consider other perspectives. 
 
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/10/complaints-about-political-correctness/
 
You guys are operating under the status quo worldview and your "justifications" for your attitudes are anything but.
 
 
 

When I was a child, I was taught something about "sticks 'n stones." Either I'm just overly mature, or people aren't brought up that way anymore.

 

You were brought up in a male-dominated world.  Is our argument seriously going to be "argument from tradition"?  "I experienced this as a kid, therefore what I experienced is right for everyone?"

Edited by klecser

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There is no problem except for people being overly sensitive. If someone is put off because we use the word 'female' instead of 'woman,' they probably have more important things to worry about in their life. The former is anything but disrespectful, but there might be something to be said about a sense of entitlement.

 

I believe it would be better for a new generation to not even consider gender, race, etc. , than for them to be taught that you should be nice to the "other" people.

 

It would be great if we could all get along without gender even factoring into conversations between humans. But that can't happen if, for example, men refer to women as "females" because that word is an explicit classification of gender. It has nothing to do with "being nice". It has to do with a) respect and b) talking to or about a person as an equal.

 

Female is primarily an adjective denoting the sex

Woman is a noun referring to a person

 

By calling women "females", you explicitly reduce those persons to just their gender. That is why it is dehumanising and that is why many people find it either disrespectful or in poor taste. Language is very important in sexist or discriminatory discourse. Please don't brush it under the carpet with the "political correctness" moniker.

 

You're right; there are probably more important things to worry about in life. But right now, we're discussing issues around discrimination of women in the context of this miniatures game. So I think it's at least pertinent to bring up the disproportionate use of the word.

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