Counter-Attack (AoO) - Wording?

[JanB 85]

Hi Folks,

 

the treacherycard "Counter-Attack" from Assault on Osgiliath reads:

 

When Revealed: Each player must return the location he controls with the highest  to the staging area, or raise his threat by the total  of all locations he controls.

 

 

 

How can i use the second part of this card if i must do the first part?

[MightyRauros 20]

Hi Folks,

 

the treacherycard "Counter-Attack" from Assault on Osgiliath reads:

 

When Revealed: Each player must return the location he controls with the highest  to the staging area, or raise his threat by the total  of all locations he controls.

 

 

 

How can i use the second part of this card if i must do the first part?

 

Yeah, I can see the ambiguity there.  Try reading it like this -

 

"When Revealed: Each player must: return the location he controls with the highest threat to the staging area, or raise his threat by the total threat of all locations he controls."

 

Help?

[JanB 85]

Ah ok, that makes sense .. the "," before "or" makes the difference.

If you look at Leafs of Tree or Men in the Dark there is no "," before the "or" - so you have to to the first part and if you can't, fullfill the second part.

 

 

When Revealed: Each player must pay 1 resource for each attachment he controls or discard all attachments he controls.

When Revealed: Each hero must pay 1 resource or take 1 damage. If no hero takes damage from this effect, Men in the Dark gains surge.

Edited October 22, 2014 by JanB

[alogos 171]

I think the coma make it a choice like it is worded "must either X or Y" rather than a "must X or y"

[MightyRauros 20]

Yeah, I that is confusing to have the exact same sentence structure and two different meanings between the cards. I tried re-reading the first post to see if I made a mistake in my reply (in light of those other examples), but it still reads the same to me. Confusing!

[gandalfDK 262]

Hi Folks,

 

the treacherycard "Counter-Attack" from Assault on Osgiliath reads:

 

When Revealed: Each player must return the location he controls with the highest  to the staging area, or raise his threat by the total  of all locations he controls.

 

 

 

How can i use the second part of this card if i must do the first part?

If I understand everything correctly, in this case the "Do X, but if not able to do Y". Is that correct?

[JanB 85]

That's the problem ... if you can't fullfill X, you will not be able to do Y.

[gandalfDK 262]

Ah, now I get the problem......  But is Y not meant if you control 2 locations and they have  the same threat level at X you do Y? Or would in that case the Golden Rule drop in and the first player is allowed to choose 1 of the locations?

[JanB 85]

you can have 2 or more locations with the same "highest" thread .. in this case you can do ...

 

1) loose control of all locations with the highest thread

2) loose control of one location with the highest thread

 

I would prefer 2) .. 

[gandalfDK 262]

I would choose 2 too.

[GrandSpleen 1,756]

When there are multiple targets that are eligible for an effect, you usually choose one.  Things like Sacks in the troll quests follow this rule.  I would choose one location to lose control of.

[gandalfDK 262]

When there are multiple targets that are eligible for an effect, you usually choose one.  Things like Sacks in the troll quests follow this rule.  I would choose one location to lose control of.

Yeah, I would follow this rule too. 

[Crabble 51]

I think the coma make it a choice like it is worded "must either X or Y" rather than a "must X or y"

 

 

Hi Folks,

 

the treacherycard "Counter-Attack" from Assault on Osgiliath reads:

 

When Revealed: Each player must return the location he controls with the highest  to the staging area, or raise his threat by the total  of all locations he controls.

 

 

 

How can i use the second part of this card if i must do the first part?

If I understand everything correctly, in this case the "Do X, but if not able to do Y". Is that correct?

 

 

So what do we do now? I still would agree with alagos because as Jan pointed out this card doesn't make sense if you wouldn't have the choice. If someone can't do X then he definetly can't do Y on this card.

[monkeyrama 133]

There was a thread a while back about these cards with choices, and the agreement (at least among some) was that the card was probably meant to read 'must either', but this was missed out in the proofing stage. If it did read 'must either' you'd have a choice, where you have to fulfil one of the two completely, as per the FAQ etc., and it would work perfectly well. As it is, it either returns the highest threat location or fizzles. The second option cannot happen.

At least, that's how I read it.

[Jban 59]

I encountered the same problem rather frequently in Assault at Osgiliath and in the Morgul Vale as well.
 

Encounter cards that state "Must X or Y" for which Y is'nt possible if X isn't possible I see most of the time as a designers mistake. Whenever such a card arises I ignore the "must X or Y" rule because it makes no sense to be forced to do X (and if not possible, not do Y either). I just apply the "must either X or Y" rule on those cards.

It isn't completely with the rules, but because the rules make no sense on these cards, I found this most correct. It gives the complete text on those cards some value. Otherwise they could as well have written "must do X".

So far my thoughts.

[alogos 171]

I encountered the same problem rather frequently in Assault at Osgiliath and in the Morgul Vale as well.

 

Counter Attack, from Assault at Osgiliath, is, so far, the only one worded this way, as far as I know.

Morgul Vale has no such card.

[Jban 59]

Confirmed, don't know which pack I'm referring to. My first thougth was Morgul Vale, but I was wrong...

None the less, the previous statement holds ;-)