Overextending force use

[Edgookin 771]

After a while of playing, I was unsatisfied with how the force powers were used.  Throughout the books, and possibly even the movies depending on how you interpret them, you see characters use force powers which they never trained.  In my game I am considering an optional rule to allow force users to overextend their force use, allowing powers they may not have.  

 

It goes as follows:

 

Cost: 1 Destiny Point and 2 Strain - Force user may be treated as having a basic Force Power (such as Move or Heal/Harm, etc), which they do not have.  Alternately, they may be treated as having one upgrade (Control, Magnitude, etc) which they do not have, but have all prerequisites for.  This only lasts for 1 round, regardless of whether the activation works or not.

 

Cost: 3 Destiny Points and 6 Strain - As above, except may have base power + 1 upgrade or 2 upgrades.

 

Cost: 6 Destiny Points and 12 Strain - As above, except may have base power + 2 upgrades or 3 upgrades.

 

We thought the advancing cost makes it very expensive, but if you just can't survive without the stretch, you can overload yourself to do something amazing.  

 

I would love to hear your thoughts.

[whafrog 10,384]

Throughout the books, and possibly even the movies depending on how you interpret them, you see characters use force powers which they never trained.  In my game I am considering an optional rule to allow force users to overextend their force use, allowing powers they may not have.

 

I've had a similar thought.  Heck, Ezra does this at the end of Rebels 1.  I don't think you need to go higher than 2 Destiny points (the base cost of a Signature Ability), after all, some games might not even have 3 players, never mind 6.  As for Strain, that's way too much.  The time to use this house rule is when you're down and beaten, and you're probably near your Strain Threshold already.

 

Cost 1:  1 Destiny point, you can use a basic Force power (provided you have the minimum FR rating), or upgrade an existing power, for one round.  You still have to roll enough Force pips to trigger the power or upgrade.  After the round the Force user suffers 2 Strain.

Cost 2:  2 Destiny points, you can use a basic Force power (provided you have the minimum FR rating) along with an upgrade, or upgrade an existing power twice, for one round.  You still have to roll enough Force pips to trigger the power and/or upgrades.  After the round the Force user suffers 4 Strain.

 

I don't know that you'd need to go much higher than that, it's pretty potent.

[Lorne 2,021]

I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

Another solution would be to simply keep some XP in reserve and spend it on the spot.

 

This is generally frowned-upon, and rightly so, for conventional skills in skill-based games, but for the Force, it's incredibly appropriate and thematic.  It's the "I didn't know you could do that/neither did I" moment that's fine for magic, but clearly not at home with, say, knowledge checks.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Lorne

[whafrog 10,384]

Another solution would be to simply keep some XP in reserve and spend it on the spot.

 

This is generally frowned-upon, and rightly so, for conventional skills in skill-based games, but for the Force, it's incredibly appropriate and thematic.  It's the "I didn't know you could do that/neither did I" moment that's fine for magic, but clearly not at home with, say, knowledge checks.

 

Good point.  That, or the player could "borrow XP ahead" from the GM...though I still think a DP flip, or even 2, is called for.  I actually like the XP approach better because once the PC does a thing they should be able to do it from that point forward.

 

Edit:  I think I'd still require a post-usage Strain effect.  That fits in well with the usage in media.

Edited October 22, 2014 by whafrog

[Lorne 2,021]

DP, for sure -- you don't want it becoming standard operating proceedure...

[kaosoe 7,573]

I play a force sensitive - who is just discovering his own abilities - in one of my games. For this character, I purchase the power and wait for the most dramatic time to "accidentally" use it. From that point on, the character will try and master it, or even learn how he did it in the first place.

 

This method models what we see Ezra do in Rebels with the Force power. After he acquired a master in episode 1, he purchased the Move power which he spontaneously used at the end of episode 2. At the beginning of episode three, he is trying to perform the ability again, to varying degrees of success.

[whafrog 10,384]

I play a force sensitive - who is just discovering his own abilities - in one of my games. For this character, I purchase the power and wait for the most dramatic time to "accidentally" use it.

 

This could work too, but what I like about the flexible-XP approach is that the usage is in response to dramatic events in the story.  If Ezra had pre-taken "Influence" instead, he wouldn't have had anything to use and it wouldn't have contributed to the dramatic scene.

[JasonRR 62]

Cost 1:  1 Destiny point, you can use a basic Force power (provided you have the minimum FR rating), or upgrade an existing power, for one round.  You still have to roll enough Force pips to trigger the power or upgrade.  After the round the Force user suffers 2 Strain.

Cost 2:  2 Destiny points, you can use a basic Force power (provided you have the minimum FR rating) along with an upgrade, or upgrade an existing power twice, for one round.  You still have to roll enough Force pips to trigger the power and/or upgrades.  After the round the Force user suffers 4 Strain.

 

I like where this is going. It's draining and costly, but it give you a chance to stretch your Force powers a little. It would also be likely that if you are doing this, you don't have a massive Force rating to begin with so I don't imagine this would be game breaking.

 

Maybe you also gain double conflict if you do this for dark side powers... you know, for being power hungry and greedy and all that!

[kaosoe 7,573]

This could work too, but what I like about the flexible-XP approach is that the usage is in response to dramatic events in the story.  If Ezra had pre-taken "Influence" instead, he wouldn't have had anything to use and it wouldn't have contributed to the dramatic scene.

 

True. In my case, I would try and work with the GM and help him or her come up with a situation where we can showcase my character's new ability.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

Using a Destiny Point to spend available XP is, IMO, little different from using the Destiny Point to spend available credits for something the character would have bought earlier/had on hand.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Using a Destiny Point to spend available XP is, IMO, little different from using the Destiny Point to spend available credits for something the character would have bought earlier/had on hand.

I agree it's different, but my prior Star Wars GM and I myself have made the infrequent usage of "spend a Destiny Point to temporarily gain access to a Force Power Upgrade for this one check," with the following two caveats (apart from needing GM approval in the first place):

 

Caveat 1: This can only be done in a highly tense/dramatic moment.

 

Caveat 2: Any XP awarded that session must be spent towards acquiring that particularly Upgrade.

 

A prime example of this would be Ezra's use of a Force push/throw on Agent Kallus in "Droids in Distress."  Ezra's PC had picked up the Move power previously, but no upgrades.  During the episode's climax, he wants to prevent Kallus from performing a coup de grace on Zeb.  It's a highly tense moment with the well-being of a fellow PC on the line, so the GM lets Ezra's player flip a Destiny Point to act as though he had the Strength Upgrade for that one Move power check.  Wanting to bring the session to a conclusion, the GM narrates Ezra's successful check as having temporarily knocked Kallus unconscious (in spite of not having the "hurl objects" Control Upgrade).  When the XP is awarded, Ezra's player spends 10 of it to purchase the Strength Upgrade.

 

I think this sort of thing is best left in the realm of GM Fiat, otherwise you run the chance of certain types of players trying to manipulate the system to get the benefits of various Force power upgrades without actually having to purchase them.

[awayputurwpn 7,720]

What I meant was that it's little different, so like the difference in minimal to the point of being inconsequential. So in other words, if you've got XP in the bank, flipping a DP to purchase something with that XP is all gravy. 

 

But I really like that house rule, too. Better than always having XP in the bank "just in case." 

 

EDIT: I can spell, really.

Edited October 25, 2014 by awayputurwpn

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

What I meant was that it's little different, so like the difference in minimal to the point of being inconsequential. So in other words, if you've got XP in the bank, flipping a DP to purchase something with that XP is all gravy. 

 

But I really like that house rule, too. Better than always having XP in the bank "just in case."

Well, the house rule I mentioned was for those instances of when the PC doesn't have the XP "in the bank" as it were.

[Thebearisdriving 312]

...

 

I think this sort of thing is best left in the realm of GM Fiat, otherwise you run the chance of certain types of players trying to manipulate the system to get the benefits of various Force power upgrades without actually having to purchase them.

 

In the Ezra "Droids in distress" example, I would almost say that it's not about figuring out how much xp he had, or needed, or banking or planning character development.  The character wanted to do something amazing, and maybe they had a lot of DP banked.  4-5 points perhaps.  Maybe Ezra's emotional trigger had activated this session too.  

 

The player asked to do something he blatantly couldn't do, and asked the GM if there was a way to do it.  GM looks at the situation, examines the DP bank, and says in this one instance, under the heightened circumstances yes, because it served the story, corresponds to the emotional trigger, and lets the player spend 3-4 DP all at once to accomplish the feat.

 

As a GM, you might develop a loose narrative structure so that you know what qualifies as "heightened circumstances" and if a players want to do something amazing at that time, and it makes for a good story, let it rock.  Having a less narrative and more structured approach isn't bad, but it does lead to more potential gaming of your own rules.  And the end decision should rest with the GM in these circumstances.  

Edited November 1, 2014 by Thebearisdriving

[Daeglan 5,950]

what about using triumphs in this way?

[Lathrop 838]

what about using triumphs in this way?

 

Not everything requires a skill check.

 

Luke for instance in the Wampa cave - if he wanted to get his lightsaber, but had not bought Move, there isn't really a skill check tied to Move's basic in the first place that he could pull from Triumphs for activating the base power.

 

I guess you could perhaps make a random skill check with Discipline as the base - but if you're just pulling Triumphs, then a force user with just greens would have to be flip a Destiny Point just for a 1 in 12 chance to use the emergency power - and any successes or advantages go to waste.

 

Personally, I think the use of Destiny Points and/or requiring future XP to be spent on the power/upgrades used is good; it's simpler, more reliable, and has a decent cost associated to it.

[Aluminium Falcon 521]

Oh, I am stealing so much of this... *scribbling notes on a pad of paper because I am an old man*