[Frank's Response] Leebo and Advanced Sensors

[Sergovan 1,440]

Hello Sergovan,

 

In response to your rules question:

Rule Question:

Leebo as crew on a B-wing with advanced sensors.

 

What happens during the activation phase, when you use Leebo before you reveal your dial, and gain an ion token?

 

Does the ion effect change for the activation phase kick in immediately, resulting in a 1 white forward even though a player has a dial set but not revealed?

 

Or does the whole ion effect come into play next turn?

 

 

The B-wing would perform a free boost action (receiving an ion token) and then still reveal its maneuver like normal. The effects of the ion token would occur during the next planning and activation phases.

[Forgottenlore 9,838]

Cool. Ae you going to add this to the [official responses] thread?

[Buhallin 4,563]

Eh, fair enough.

[Sergovan 1,440]

Cool. Ae you going to add this to the [official responses] thread?

I will be.

[StephenEsven 632]

So I had it right and was swayed to the other (dark) side. Good to get it set straight (1 white that is)

[Buhallin 4,563]

So I had it right and was swayed to the other (dark) side. Good to get it set straight (1 white that is)

Well, I still think we had it right as the rules were printed  I can understand why they would rule it the other way, though.  I do wish it would trigger a general cleanup of the ion rules, but...  <shrug>

[godofcheese 456]

 

So I had it right and was swayed to the other (dark) side. Good to get it set straight (1 white that is)

Well, I still think we had it right as the rules were printed  I can understand why they would rule it the other way, though.  I do wish it would trigger a general cleanup of the ion rules, but...  <shrug>

 

 

See I feel rules as printed are contrary to this, as the activation phase while Ion has no 'reveal dial', so dial or no dial doesn't matter.

 

Having said that, we now have a definite answer and I'm more than happy to go with it.

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

So I had it right and was swayed to the other (dark) side. Good to get it set straight (1 white that is)

Well, I still think we had it right as the rules were printed  I can understand why they would rule it the other way, though.  I do wish it would trigger a general cleanup of the ion rules, but...  <shrug>

 

See I feel rules as printed are contrary to this, as the activation phase while Ion has no 'reveal dial', so dial or no dial doesn't matter.

 

Having said that, we now have a definite answer and I'm more than happy to go with it.

I completely agree with this. I read the same rules and I came to the conclusion that the ion effect would happen on the following turn. If anyone came to a different conclusion then they misinterpreted the rules. I didn't come to the right conclusion by misinterpreting the rules so how did you come to the wrong conclusions by reading the rules correctly?

[SableGryphon 2,847]

There are great arguments on both sides. I'm glad we found an official resolution quickly. Thank you all.

 

I'll see what other weird situations I can cause heavy debate on. As usual.

[Mace Windu 1,173]

Capthalfbeard, Try not to sound too condescending there champ.

 

The Ion token inserts overriding special rules that as written should be independently active in 3 phases, nothing anywhere states that what happens in the Activation Phase is reliant upon the ion effects taking place in the planning phase.

 

Now obviously Frank has made a determination and People will play by the rules (including myself), however that doesn't mean that this isn't another RAI clarification that without a revision of the rules at some point will constantly create this sort of issue.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Mace Windu

[dvorm 1,058]

I didn't come to the right conclusion by misinterpreting the rules so how did you come to the wrong conclusions by reading the rules correctly?

Interpretations by forum members are based on printed rules. Answers from FFG are (hopefully) based on what the game designers intend. Those different starting points lead to different results. It's the difference between RAW and RAI.

[VanorDM 11,599]

It's the difference between RAW and RAI.

But in this case RAI actually is valid, which often times it's not. I as a player can not really claim to know what FFG's intentions where. I may have an opinion but it's just at best a semi-educated guess based on other rules.

Frank on the other hand can say what RAI is with authority because he knew what the intention was.

In this case, we honestly didn't have a clear enough RAW to make an airtight case either way, best either side could do is argue their interpretation.

[Buhallin 4,563]

 

I completely agree with this. I read the same rules and I came to the conclusion that the ion effect would happen on the following turn. If anyone came to a different conclusion then they misinterpreted the rules. I didn't come to the right conclusion by misinterpreting the rules so how did you come to the wrong conclusions by reading the rules correctly?

 

I happen to think that you did actually come to the wrong conclusion.  That just happened to be the conclusion that FFG wanted.  Or probably more accurately, it was the wrong conclusion right up until it wasn't any more.

 

There's pretty much nothing in the ion token rules that says it should have to wait, any more than there's anything in the rules that says blocking short of an obstacle means you don't hit it, or that you should have set off a proximity mine on a barrel roll (to dig out my favorite oldie but goodie).

 

Yes, you got it "right" in as much as your guess matched FFG's eventual preference - congratulations.  But nothing in that "right" had anything to do with the rules that were printed, so the asinine gloating is rather inappropriate.

[dvorm 1,058]

 

It's the difference between RAW and RAI.

But in this case RAI actually is valid ...

And it makes a lot of sense, too.

 

When applying the effect during the same round, you select one maneuver, then choose to ionize yourself in order to change your maneuver to one straight. A ion token is supposed to be a disadvantage. That way it turns into an advantage. From that game-balance point of view, suspending the entire effect until next round is good.

Edited October 23, 2014 by dvor

[Smuggler 556]

 

 

It's the difference between RAW and RAI.

But in this case RAI actually is valid ...

And it makes a lot of sense, too.

 

When applying the effect during the same round, you select one maneuver, then choose to ionize yourself in order to change your maneuver to one straight. A ion token is supposed to be a disadvantage. That way it turns into an advantage. From that game-balance point of view, suspending the entire effect until next round is good.

 

Then I supose Farlander doesn't make any sense as a stress is supposed to be a disadvantege, but he turns it into an advantage...

[Parravon 5,217]

Yeah, not sure about the justification on that one. He's stressed because he's just tried a cunning maneuver and the ship is groaning about it, and he sits in the cockpit and thinks "I'll just shoot at that TIE, that'll make me feel better!"

[Marinealver 8,073]

Since Ion tokens don't take effect until the planning phase that seems to be right. Remember you need 2 Ion tokens to become Ionized so Lebo won't Ionized you the first time (unless you're in a HWK-290 or  A/SF-01-E2).

 

Still it is a good way to bleed of single Ion Tokens so you can dictate you movement instead of your opponent.

[VanorDM 11,599]

From that game-balance point of view, suspending the entire effect until next round is good.

I'd agree that it's most likely that's the effect they wanted. They didn't want someone being able to Ionize themselves after who knows how many other ships have moved and you can get a really good idea of where you will end up.

I still don't think that's what the rules said... I think you could quite easily read them either way, which left RAI, and now we know what the Intention was, so it's all good.

But we shouldn't base our rule interpretations on how positive or negative an effect may be. Because if we go that route, then as is pointed out above Farlander shouldn't work like he does.

[Sergovan 1,440]

  I thoughtt about how this response could work within the current rules as provided and I think that is comes down to their being a start to a step, a middle of a step and an end of a step. When Advanced sensors is used, to activate Leebo, it is right before the reveal dial step, which is step one of the activation phase but not the start of the Activation Phase. For the ion rules' Activation effect to work, they would have to be running at the start of the Activation Phase, not the start of the reveal dial step. The timing window has already passed. It is arguably alsmot the same point in time but for how the ruling came out, I think it is a different timing trigger for the ion effect and the reveal dial step, and since the activation change in the ion rules tells you you can remove the token, it stays and gets activated the following round.

 

That's how I interpret it with what we have.

 

Pictured as:

 

ACTIVATION PHASE (Ion "Activation Phase clause" starts here) ---------- (Ion token given here) Start of Reveal Dial step --------Reveal Dial ----------End Reveal Dial step

Edited October 23, 2014 by Sergovan

[SableGryphon 2,847]

I asked a follow-up question of Frank after I got the above official ruling:

 

Follow-up question: You have a high PS ship with Leebo Crew and Experimental Interface. Lando moves and gives that ship a free action from its action bar. From that action, it triggers Experimental Interface which triggers Leebo. Leebo gives an ion token. That ship then activates. The ship has an ion token before the ship is activated, but has a dial set. What happens? Is the ship ioned this round or next?

 

The response was as follows:

 

That would have a similar result. The ship is both assigned a dial and has an ion token, but it would resolve the dial that turn and be ionized the next turn.

 

(That would be rather risky since the ship would be ionized and stressed unless the ship has picked a green maneuver and has higher pilot skill than Lando).

 

So, there we go. An ion token must be present at the start of activation or its effects are delayed until the next turn.

[Dagonet 7,246]

I just found this thread when wondering about this myself.

 

So, basically, to clear this up for once and for all, now and in the future, they could have the FAQ read:

 

Am I right in this interpretation?

ION TOKEN

Some card abilities, such as the “Ion Cannon Turret” Upgrade card, can cause

a ship to receive an ion token. A ship with an ion token assigned to it follows

special rules during these phases:

• Planning Phase: The owner does not assign a maneuver dial to

this ship.

• Activation Phase: If a maneuver dial was not assigned to this ship, the owner moves the ship as if it were assigned

a white [ 1] maneuver. After executing this maneuver, remove all ion

tokens from the ship. It may perform actions as normal.

• Combat Phase: The ship may attack as normal.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Dagonet

[Crabbok 9,869]

Bumping an old thread here with a newer question/scenario -

 

Suppose I use a B-Wing (Keyan Farlander) with Push the Limit and Leebo crew and advanced sensors.

 

Turn 1 - I set my maneuever to a 2 Turn.   I pre-Leebo, giving me a boost, + Ion.  I then do a 2-turn.  I keep my ion token.

 

Turn 2 - I do not set a maneuver dial - so cannot use advanced sensors - however if some ship could give me a free action BEFORE I began Keyan's activation, he could then trigger Leebo this turn, assigning himself a 2nd ion token and boosting before starting his activation, and effectively removing both ION tokens with only a single instance of a white One-Forward maneuever. 

 

I don't think there is any way currently to actually DO this.  At least not if you are ionizing yourself.  I had about four different ways to do this all planned out, but after reading of the wording of teh cards and other rulings... I just don't think it's in the game right now.  

 

• Anyone who could give Keyan a free action BEFORE he moves seems to restrict that action to something on his BAR.  Lando, and Squad Leader both state this. 
• Push the Limit on Keyan might allow an extra actaion after a barrel roll, for example, but PTL states the BAR as well, which means he'd need Experimental Interface to do it.
• The B-Wing is the only ship for the rebels that can currently equip Leebo and advanced sensors - but that sucks up it's modification slot so you can't give it experimental interface. 
• Can't use the Lambda, because Leebo is Rebel only otherwise you could do it with Lambda/Leebo/Adv Sensors/EI. 

So is there any-way to effectively ionize yourself twice while removing 2 ion tokens for just the one move?  Can anyone figure it out?

[dvorm 1,058]

Everything you write is correct. Except maybe Squad Leader:

 

Is Squad Leader limited to the action bar? Are you sure?

[Cptnhalfbeard 680]

To go through the hypothetical, I would say yes, if you manage to give an already ioned ship another ion token before its activation phase you would remove all ion tokens from that ship when it activates and would not suffer an additional ion effect from it.

When a ship suffers multiple ion tokens during a single combat, it only suffers 1 ion movement, so I don't think it would matter if it got the 2 of them in different phases before it activates.

I dunno, don't think its possible, but that's how I would imagine it would work if it was.

Edit: oh I guess it would be possible with squad leader. So there you go!

Edited March 4, 2015 by Cptnhalfbeard

[dvorm 1,058]

The issue with squad leader is the PS requirement. In order to give someone an action the squad leader activates after the beneficiary. So no, that does not work.

Edited March 4, 2015 by dvor