netrunner hades/eden shard - Limit 1 per deck - How to install from grip?

[caecitas 0]

Afternoon all.

 

Having searched the forums/net I'm having no luck having a questioned answered - hoping one of you kind souls can help.

 

Both Hades and Eden shard are limited to 1 per deck, and are able to be installed after a successful run on archives/R&D respectively. The issue is this: -

 

You can only have 1 of these cards in your deck (either installed or in your grip, for arguments sake).

 

As cards in your hand are inactive, you would have to have Eden/Hades installed for the text to take effect, but as there is only 1 per deck, there cannot be a situation where either Eden or Hades shard are in your hand AND installed, so thus you cannot take advantage of the text.

 

Can anyone shed some light on this?  We've tweeted Lukas to get a response, but I'd be keen to hear what the community has to say.

 

Thank you in advance.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Golden Rule - if card text contradicts rules text, card text takes precedence.

 

That ability can ONLY be active while in Grip; ergo it IS active while in Grip. See Subliminal Messaging for a similar situation; people have argued that the text is inactive when in Archives, but the text is meaningless anywhere else; ergo it is active while in Archives.

[caecitas 0]

Having checked your example I understand where the comparison is coming from.  However, as a ruling, it feels fairly poor. I feel the card could have done with being a little clearer in both instances.

 

Would anyone else like to chime in?

 

I presume that this WILL be the ruling, but I feel this muddles things somewhat.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

Netrunner sadly does suffer from some iffy wording on cards. I'm shockingly impressed at the great pains FFG have gone to with Conquest to formalise the timing structures and template consistently (though obviously with time we may see wonky cards come out there too).

 

It doesn't detract heavily from my enjoyment of the game and with most cards the intention is clear enough to puzzle out which way the ruling will go (though there have been some notable exceptions).

[Khouri 96]

All the "Limit one per deck" really does is changes the way you can legally construct your deck. Where you would normally be permitted 3 of each card, this alters the rules to allow you have only a single copy of that card in your deck.

[Grimwalker 647]

What he's saying is, if you have a Shard installed, then its text would be active, allowing a second copy to be installed from a successful run. But that can't happen, because 1 per deck. 

 

But honestly, this is a really pedantic question. If the only way card text can function is if it triggers from the grip, then RTFC.

[CommissarFeesh 458]

What he's saying is, if you have a Shard installed, then its text would be active, allowing a second copy to be installed from a successful run.

Actually even then it wouldn't work because of what the rules say on self-referential language.

[Eridine 11]

On a similar note, I wonder what you guys think about this:

 

Would you agree that, rules as written, Subliminal Messaging doesn't work?

 

A friend of mine is of the opinion that it does not. He of course recognizes how it was intended to work, and knows that no TO would ever side with him on the issue, so it doesn't actually cause any play problems, but I can see his point.

 

His reading is that since the card doesn't say on it something to the effect of "this card is active in archives," the Golden Rule doesn't apply. This is based on his reading of the golden rule saying, "conflict," which to him means that since the card doesn't have something on it that conflicts with the rule that cards are inactive in archives, the Golden Rule doesn't work.

 

What are your guys' thoughts?

[CommissarFeesh 458]

See my post above; I used Subliminal as an example as to how to parse Shards.

The text would be meaningless if it was inactive; the implication then is that the text MUST be active even though it does not explicitly state this.

[Eridine 11]

See my post above; I used Subliminal as an example as to how to parse Shards.

The text would be meaningless if it was inactive; the implication then is that the text MUST be active even though it does not explicitly state this.

 

An interesting view, and certainly sensible. I'm not sure if I'd agree that the Golden Rule, as written, extends far enough to support invoking it by inference though.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Eridine

[CommissarFeesh 458]

 

See my post above; I used Subliminal as an example as to how to parse Shards.

The text would be meaningless if it was inactive; the implication then is that the text MUST be active even though it does not explicitly state this.

 

An interesting view, and certainly sensible. I'm not sure if I'd agree that the Golden Rule, as written, extends far enough to support invoking it by inference though.

 

It's clumsy, and I don't much like it. Rules should be explicit and not implicit, but without errata there's no other way to realistically rule on these cards.

[player1524454 31]

 

See my post above; I used Subliminal as an example as to how to parse Shards.

The text would be meaningless if it was inactive; the implication then is that the text MUST be active even though it does not explicitly state this.

 

An interesting view, and certainly sensible. I'm not sure if I'd agree that the Golden Rule, as written, extends far enough to support invoking it by inference though.

 

 

Unless you think FFG printed a whole lot of cards with effects that cannot actually happen, I'd say it's safe to assume that the "Golden Rule" extends to effects that don't directly conflict with any written rules but require exceptions to work.

 

I'm not saying it's great. Ideally the rules (and exceptions) should be enough to explain the function of any card without any ambiguity. That's probably not all that easy to achieve, though, and I do think anyone that text that reads "Return this card from Archives to HQ" isn't active in Archives is probably being pedantic more than anything else.

Edited October 20, 2014 by AmtsboteHannes

[Grimwalker 647]

This rule has to exist, otherwise--and let's just limit the search to Core Set--Aggressive Secretary, Ghost Branch, Project Junebug, Snare, Zaibatsu Loyalty, any Advanceable Ice or Asset, and no few Agendas would need errata to say that their text applies while not active.

[Eridine 11]

This rule has to exist, otherwise--and let's just limit the search to Core Set--Aggressive Secretary, Ghost Branch, Project Junebug, Snare, Zaibatsu Loyalty, any Advanceable Ice or Asset, and no few Agendas would need errata to say that their text applies while not active.

 

Since you have stated that the rule must exist, rather than pointing to a place where it does, would you not then agree that, currently, rules as written, Subliminal Messaging and the other cards you mentioned in fact, don't work?

 

I of course admit that playing the game in that fashion would be pointless, but I think based on these responses I must defer to my friends perspective on the matter.

[Grimwalker 647]

I don't think there needs to be a clause in the FAQ that says "RTFC" in so many words. The game has gotten along just fine for two years with no confusion on the matter.

[AMLopes 1]

I don't understand the question... you can have 1 copy of Eden Shard and 1 copy of Hades Shard and 1 copy of Utopia Shard in your deck!!!

Then, you can have Eden installed and Hades in hand. And, if you make a successful run in Archives  (or spending 7 credits) you can have Eden AND Hades installed together in your ring.

[Grimwalker 647]

The question is badly worded--I attempted to reword the OP's question as follows:
 

What he's saying is, if you have a Shard installed, then its text would be active, allowing a second copy to be installed from a successful run. But that can't happen, because 1 per deck. 

 

He thought that you'd have to Install a Hades Shard on the table (paying retail price) in order to have the ability to run archives to install one from grip, which is impossible with only one in the deck.