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Jeans_Stealer

Desperado + two-weapon wielder = 3 attacks a turn?

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You know, now that I think about it, I've always wanted to be a baker the most obvious player-obtainable that makes [Move and Shoot] almost completely useless is the Rare [MIU Weapon Interface]. That implant makes attacking a Free Action, just like Move and Shoot does. Except, unlike Move and Shoot, the MIU Weapon Interface'd weapon is allowed (or at least not dis-allowed) to fire on Semi-Auto or even Full Auto if the user so wills it. I completely forgot about that implant. So yeah... I've boarded the "Move and Shoot is worthless" bandwagon. Sorry Desperados. EDIT: Double-post, but I figured a new train of thought justifies it.

Wow...totally missed they included that item. Odds are it's going to be FAQed to Standard Attack only like the Rogue Trader version but even so it's at least as good as Move and Shoot. Away from.the book atm, but what kind of weapons does the MIU allow?

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Wow...totally missed they included that item. Odds are it's going to be FAQed to Standard Attack only like the Rogue Trader version but even so it's at least as good as Move and Shoot. Away from.the book atm, but what kind of weapons does the MIU allow?

 

If I remember correctly, the FAQ from <Only War> or <Rogue Trader> or something suggested Pistol-sized for most people. For the giant metal mountains that are Tech-Priests, or simply Adeptus Mechanicus characters in <Dark Heresy Second Edition>, a Basic weapon might be plausible.

 

Free is also a value, and they do get it for free so imho its not worthless. ;)

 

That's pretty much the only thing [Move and Shoot] has going for it. I'm the type to weigh things from a very end-game perspective. Like, why would I buy the [sprint {Talent}] with experience when I can get Sprint for "free" from [bionic Legs] or a [bionic Heart]? An Adeptus Mechanicus character knocks down the MIU Weapon Interface down to... what, Common is up two steps from Rare? Then such a starting character could pick up the implant uncontested by RAW, since it's more Available than Scarce.

 

 

 

ADDENDUM/EDIT: The Pistol-size suggestion in the <Rogue Trader FAQ> is for shoulder-mounted weapons. Maybe if the weapon was mounted somewhere else Basic could be justified, but I think it'd be fine if a shouldered Basic weapon just needed to be Readied as a Half Action before the Free Action use. Or have a Round's worth of delay before actually being able to use it, to represent it sliding up and over the shoulder. I imagine the MIU'd weapon on a track that lies over the scapula when folded back and needs time to deploy and have the barrel pointed in the right direction.

 

And two steps above Rare is Average. Still above Scarce and theoretically available to a starting Adepus Mechanicus character. So yeah. Desperado could be made obsolete as early as character generation.

Edited by Asymptomatic

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I do apologize for that whole exchange. I did extend an offer to move over to private messaging near the top of Page 2, but I'm not quite sure where that went.

 

Back on [Move and Shoot]'s viability, Running is a bit of a stretch, but Run and Shoot's viability is kept in control by:

  • limiting the attack to a single pistol shot
  • the running character giving enemies a +20 bonus to WS

However, Running:

  • is faster than Charging and thus characters can escape from melee enemies
  • can be doubled through the [sprint {Talent}], exacerbating the above problem
  • applies -40 BS to enemies when characters have the [Hard Target {Talent}]

 

I don't have enough experience to say whether Run n' Gunnin' should be a thing or not, but it carves a distinct playstyle for players should they opt into it. I stand by my interpretation that Disengage, Guarded Move, and Half Move and Shoot are thematically appropriate though. And Tactical Advance and Shoot too, like you said.

 

EDIT: Some clarification.

 

 

Dude, it's absolutely fine. sometimes all geeks get a bit sidetracked in a rocket-sled-ride of calamity.

You must have had one of those sessions with a 30 minute scour through the Rule Books for a half-action being detailed fully?

 

Hopefully the 'requisition' problem will be cleared up as easily as this question of mine was.

 

Your points about running are what make me think the other 'move actions' are viable but running is not - getting a -20 to hit via BS is like running as if the hounds of hell themselves were behind you - how is even the fastest human to lift pistol, and crack off an effective shot? UNLESS... perhaps the -20BS ALSO applies to the desperado? That's tangential-talk though.

 

 

You know, now that I think about it, I've always wanted to be a baker the most obvious player-obtainable that makes [Move and Shoot] almost completely useless is the Rare [MIU Weapon Interface]. That implant makes attacking a Free Action, just like Move and Shoot does. Except, unlike Move and Shoot, the MIU Weapon Interface'd weapon is allowed (or at least not dis-allowed) to fire on Semi-Auto or even Full Auto if the user so wills it.

 

FFS can't a new character get a 'good thing' lol? :) Exactly right and I agree with you, Asymptomatic. This negates Run-and-shoot, it's only downsides being 1. an MIU is required, 2. A weapon interface is required for the MIU, and both of these items have to be requisitioned and SURGICALLY implanted, yes?

An optimiser would go for it in a heartbeat.

...

and

3. If I was playing a PC rather than GM... no. not really. I don't want no Cogboy cutting me up all fresh, like - it's my **** warm cadaver, i'll do what I like with it, and puttin' in cogboy cables and communin' is not ma idea of Emperor-worshippin.

Surgery isn't for everyone!

 

Being a baker isn't a bad thing. Bread is tasty.

 

 

Move and Shoot is worthless

 

Free is also a value, and they do get it for free so imho its not worthless. ;)

 

 

This is the only thing it's got going for it at the moment. So... really the idea is to see what an FAQ does, but REALLY... let's see what players can come up with! I mean, a player came up with the thread question...

If a fate point got thrown at this move-and-shoot, what could be done to alter it? Move-and-shoot appears to be a stand-in until an MIU weapon or Hip-Shooting. So if a fate point is added... Move-and-shoot allows... rainbows to appear?

 

traversing difficult terrain without penalty while getting a standard attack? (the deperado leaps, jumps, rolls across all terrain types without effort?)

 

HELL, might as well say that move + shoot grants hip shooting to a desperado for all types of move actions, and it cannot be combined with two-weapon-wielder as a limiter.

Edited by Jeans_Stealer

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When I think Desperado, I think of this smooth criminal who knows his way around a Pistol or five. I think [Move and Shoot]'s unviability is an opportunity to make Desperados the Pistol Gods they deserve to be. My gut reaction would be:

 

Gunfighter Saint: After making a successful Standard Attack, Semi-Auto Burst, or Full Auto Burst action with a Pistol, the Desperado may make an additional attack with a Pistol he has not used this turn as a Free Action, with the same bonuses and penalties as the previous attack. He may only make this attack once per round.

 

The visage I wanted to go for here was a character who would fire an autopistol in his right hand, a stub revolver in his left, then holster the autopistol and draw a hand cannon in one swift motion before making one last shot. Very distinctive, makes players feel empowered, and possibly makes Pistols a little more interesting. Basic weapons get two Full Auto Bursts? Then Pistols get three in the hands of a Desperado. Gunfighter Saint (a name I totally stole from <Dark Heresy - Ascension>, is gated by the following:

  • Pistols are generally weaker, have smaller RoF, and usually sport smaller clips compared to Basic weapons
  • Pistols do not have the same level of RAW support that Basic weapons have
  • Attacking a large number targets is already possible by redistributing Semi-Auto or Full Auto hits
  • Desperados will have one more weapon to juggle if he wants to use Gunfighter Saint fully

The concerns I have about this Desperado Bonus are:

  • Pistols are pretty easy to come by, with some exceptions. A player could earn three pistols in no time
  • While Gunfighter Saint instead of [Move and Shoot] makes [Hip Shooting] one-of-a-kind again, Desperados lose the slippery gunfighting that was possible with Half Move and Shoot. This may or may not be a good thing

Is Gunfighter Saint too defining as a character concept? Both Adeptus Mechanicus and Psyker characters are really defining as character concepts; a metal monster and a psychic monster. Ammo consumption? Basic weapons are plagued by that too. If there are any issues I missed, let me know.

 

 

Less radically, maybe Move and Shoot would be fun enough if the number of Standard Attacks was changed from one to three or something. Or if the single Standard attack defied the Attack subtype rule.

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Asymptomatic,

 

I like the thinking.  It would appear that the move-and-shoot skill is flawed.

 

perhaps... perhaps it's worth considering the alternative, perhaps thinking about breaking the 'one attack subtype' per turn....

for the spending of a fate point.

 

Gunzerker: for the spending of a fate point, a desperado can use a second shooting attack-subtype action per turn, granting a second standard attack, as long as the deperado is only using pistols. This attack does not count towards the single-attack subtype per player turn.

 

This could grant 4 attacks per turn with pistols, in all fire modes, for one fate point.

 

OR

 

Trailblazer: by spending a fate point, the desperado can make a move-subtype action AND recieve an attack with a pistol (in any fire mode) as a free action. This attack does not count towards the single-attack subtype per player turn.

 

I feel that a fate-point use could make this worthwhile. At the moment the 'doubletap' skill only applies on a standard attack (two-weapon wielder) granting +20 to the second shot.

 

If Gunzerker is used, i am tempted to say that 'doubletap' only works once.

 

What do you think? what does anyone think?

Edited by Jeans_Stealer

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I feel like "Gunzerker" is unusually aggressive for what I interpret Desperados as: quick with their hands, feet, and the trigger. Going in guns blazing lacks the finesse I'm looking for, personally. "Gunfighter Saint", while similarly aggressive, has the illusion of dexterity since it requires a mid-attack weapon switch. "Trailblazer" is nicer as it keeps the "move and shoot" theme, though I would probably limit the bonus movement-subtype action to a Half Move. Just in case someone decides to make two or more Run actions in a single round. A Fate Point cost gives the Desperado Bonus a little wiggle room for extra power, so I think this is a step in the right direction.

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I feel like "Gunzerker" is unusually aggressive for what I interpret Desperados as: quick with their hands, feet, and the trigger. Going in guns blazing lacks the finesse I'm looking for, personally. "Gunfighter Saint", while similarly aggressive, has the illusion of dexterity since it requires a mid-attack weapon switch. "Trailblazer" is nicer as it keeps the "move and shoot" theme, though I would probably limit the bonus movement-subtype action to a Half Move. Just in case someone decides to make two or more Run actions in a single round. A Fate Point cost gives the Desperado Bonus a little wiggle room for extra power, so I think this is a step in the right direction.

 

I had the feeling Gunzerker might be a bit much.

In that case... Developing trailblazer into something more appropriate.

 

"gunfighter saint" doesn't strike me as right, i'm sorry to say, as chances are that the standard attack will use twin-weapon wielder, and if they do that, then they'll need to drop a gun and draw a new one. They'll likely have drawn both pistols in a single free-action at the beginning of the round with quickdraw, so this required weapon-switch doesn't feel right. But that's personal opinion! It might work for you.

 

If Gunzerker isn't appropriate... humm.  Something else.

 

The Quick and the Dead: By spending a fate point, after any move-subtype action (except for charging and running) a desperado can draw and fire a single shot with a  single pistol (with no bonuses) as a free action. This single attack is in addition to the single attack-subtype action per turn.

 

There are no bonuses because it's drawn and fired as fast as possible. What do you think?

Edited by Jeans_Stealer

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S'cool, don't worry about naysaying my half-fast thoughts. I was trying to invoke a snap fire-like visage, but now I think "Gunfighter Saint" is weird too. I like the feel of "The Quick and the Dead", but I miss the Half Move created by "Trailblazer".

I was half-entertaining a bonus that created a Standard Pistol shot with every Fate Point use, in addition to whatever the Fate Point was used for. Recovering from Fatigue? Shoot a guy in the face. Buying a re-roll? Shoot a guy in the face. +10 on your Dodge test? Make a quip about a guy's mother. Oh, and then shoot him in the face.

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S'cool, don't worry about naysaying my half-fast thoughts. I was trying to invoke a snap fire-like visage, but now I think "Gunfighter Saint" is weird too. I like the feel of "The Quick and the Dead", but I miss the Half Move created by "Trailblazer".

 

Well a half-move has the move-action-subtype so can be done easily as part of The Quick and the Dead. As can disengaging, and tactical advance. as can any move-action subtype (except charging and running) with a free single-pistol-shot for a fatepoint. So Trailblazer is preserved, in a way? This 'single pistol shot' is tipping the hands of fate, by using a fatepoint?

 

 

I was half-entertaining a bonus that created a Standard Pistol shot with every Fate Point use, in addition to whatever the Fate Point was used for. Recovering from Fatigue? Shoot a guy in the face. Buying a re-roll? Shoot a guy in the face. +10 on your Dodge test? Make a quip about a guy's mother. Oh, and then shoot him in the face.

 

I'm not sure about every fatepoint use, but it's an interesting idea.... a re-roll and a free shot in addition? seems...weird, maybe too much... it's focussing entirely on 'that extra shot' with fatepoints. Humm. But worth discussing!

 

What did angel eyes in the spaghetti westerns tip the hands of fate with when it came to that extra shot, or use of his pistol? for a fate point, you can shoot first, say something smarmy, and get a free half-action move afterwards?

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From my understanding, [Trailblazer] was to create both a Movement-type action and a Standard/Semi-Auto/Full Auto attack. So, players could invoke [Two-Weapon Wielder] to attack twice, use a Fate Point to move and attack again, then still have a Half Action left over to do something else. I wanted to limit [Trailblazer] to Half Move actions since a player could Run twice in one turn by spending a Fate Point. So, at most, players could Run as a Full Action then attack and move an extra Half Move.

 

[The Quick and the Dead] is much closer to the current Desperado Bonus that "only" tacks on an attack as a Free action. I think, for the price a Fate Point, [The Quick and the Dead] could squeeze out a little more mileage. Not including the Assassins' [sure Kill], which I dislike as a Bonus, the Warriors' [Expert at Violence] sets the standard for how useful I would expect the Desperado's Bonus to be. Can't draw a direct parallel between the two bonuses, but the effect should be noticeably beneficial. Maybe I'm expecting too much; a third attack is a third attack after all.

 

I didn't think out my last unnamed suggestion fully. It has the interesting benefit of creating single-shot Pistol attacks on other character's turns, which I thought was a nifty idea. My perspective is skewed though, thinking every last ability needs to be useful. I would need outside help to see the consequences of such an ability.

 

I don't quite follow what you were saying in your last paragraph. Sorry, could you run it by me again?

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From my understanding, [Trailblazer] was to create both a Movement-type action and a Standard/Semi-Auto/Full Auto attack. So, players could invoke [Two-Weapon Wielder] to attack twice, use a Fate Point to move and attack again, then still have a Half Action left over to do something else. I wanted to limit [Trailblazer] to Half Move actions since a player could Run twice in one turn by spending a Fate Point. So, at most, players could Run as a Full Action then attack and move an extra Half Move.

 

AH you've seen around the specifics of the rules, that was quite blind of me, run, then free run action and shoot. of course. the flash with a hand cannon. not safe for the meticulous GM.

Yes of course, I should have altered the wording to 'spend a fate point after' so that they could do a half/full move-subtype action then get a free shooting action, and not end up with two run actions.

 

Sigh. Bl00dy players.

 

Well the idea with The Quick and the Dead was to fix that, limit it to defined move actions.

 

 

[The Quick and the Dead] is much closer to the current Desperado Bonus that "only" tacks on an attack as a Free action. I think, for the price a Fate Point, [The Quick and the Dead] could squeeze out a little more mileage. Not including the Assassins' [sure Kill], which I dislike as a Bonus, the Warriors' [Expert at Violence] sets the standard for how useful I would expect the Desperado's Bonus to be. Can't draw a direct parallel between the two bonuses, but the effect should be noticeably beneficial. Maybe I'm expecting too much; a third attack is a third attack after all.

 

In that case, the extra attack action could be free, and not cost any fate points - a 'Free shot' worth no fate points, after a move action?

 

Regarding the warrior's bonus - It's hard to scale the bonuses against each other, and it always will be - that's the nature of players and how they use their skills. I have no idea how to scale the effectiveness of what we're suggesting. We can give up, and wait for the FAQ, which might miss it (but probably won't) or we can keep rolling in elaborate circles around use of fate points, extra attack-subtype actions, and trying to not make a gunslinger into a gunzerker. I'm happy for the discussion, it just doesn't seem to be heading in a solid direction.

 

The last paragraph - you were talking about the 'core' of what it was to be a desperado. Angel Eyes, Clint Eastwood's fast-shooting character from "a Fistful of Dollars" "A Few Dollars More" and "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" is a outline of this trope, to me. How about for you? I'm trying to remember what his character would do, in the film, to tip the hands of fate, and what came out of it. Howe do we put that into Dark heresy?

 

Desperados are fast talking, fast acting, fast moving gunslingers with a blaze-away streak. How to get that across, with or without a fate point? A 'trait' that is only a little more utilitarian than hip-Shooting doesn't seem enough, esp. since it can't be used to get more than the single-attack-subtype per turn.

 

Move and Shoot: Once per round, after performing

a Move action, a Desperado character may perform

a single Standard Attack with a Pistol weapon he

is currently wielding as a Free Action.

 

How do you make that better, and not an elaborate copy of Hip shooting? You see, we're back to this question. For a fate point, all pistols game storm for one round? A desperado can move, aim and fire as a half action? or:

 

Safeties off: A Desperado can (for a fate point) always go first, rather than get a 10 on his initiative roll, and get a half move OR aim action for free. If surprised, the surprise round still happens first.

 

Blazing Advance: On a successful agility, acrobatics or athletics test with any move action, The Desperado can have an additional single-shot standard shooting action with a pistol, even out of the desperado's turn.

 

Do I just keep throwing these out until something sticks? We seem to be the only two dumping any input on this. What does anyone else think?

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Faster N' You: Once per round, you may spend a fate point to make a basic attack with a pistol against any opponent who has declared a ballistic attack against the Desperado.

 

Because he's faster than you.

 

Could swap the need for fate with a reaction but that might be overkill.

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Godgolden,

 

That's genius, and I love it. Let's not butcher the 'than' word to 'N' though.

 

Faster-than-you: When performing a reaction (dodge), a desperado can spend a fatepoint to draw and fire a pistol on single-shot with a (+0) bonus at the attacker (as long as the desperado knows where the attack is coming from) or a half-action move (this move cannot be used if the desperado is in melee, or for the desperado to engage in melee.)

 

That's getting somewhere, at least! Discuss! :)

Edited by Jeans_Stealer

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While I like the idea but I wouldn't tie it to Dodge. I'd.just let it as 'spend a Fate point to make a pistol single shot attack as a free action'(so you get to shoot first not after you dodge theother guy's bullet). I would also condition drawing the pistol as part of the action by having Quick Draw.

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Lord Blades, thank you for your input!

 

Faster-Than-Thou: On a successful (-10) Agility check, or by spending a fate point(?) A Desperado can, as a reaction, fire a pistol already in their hands (on single shot only) at their attacker just before the antagonist can fire - as long as the desperado is aware of their attacker and the shooter is in their front 90degree arc.

Having Quick-draw allows the pistol to be drawn-and-fired as part of this reaction.

 

Something like this? An alternate reaction?

 

OR

 

Since lightning reflexes doesn't exist anymore, how about

 

The Saint of Killers: A desperado can spend a fate point at the beginning of an encounter or  on their turn to gain Unnatural Ballistic Skill (+2) and Unnatural Agility (+2) until the beginning of the next turn. This extra agility cannot effect the initiative order.

 

Or for 1+D3 rounds, if 1 round isn't enough? 

 

 

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I like the first option although I'd keep it as a free action (so the Desperado can dodge too, forfeiting Dodge and therefore encouraging the character to load up on armor and as a result invest less into agility is a bit against the concept).

Something like 'once per round as a free action, when targeted by an attack he is aware of, the Desperado can spend a Fate point to make a Standard Attack with a pistol he is currently wiwlding before the triggering attack is resolved. If the Desperado possesses the Quick Draw talent, he can draw a pistol as part of this free action.'

Edited by LordBlades

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Fellow Acolytes,  we are now cooking with Vespene gas.

 

However, Lord Blades, free actions can only occur during said character turn (under my interpretation, page 218, "on his turn" which really should be genderless) so they're not a free-at-any-point action, they can just fit around the one full action by being next-to-no-time. Feel free to prove me wrong, I will attempt to interpret.

A reaction is a good place to put them. I think Desperado players will enjoy pulling this tactic on Mooks, as the mook will attempt to shoot them, and they'll put the mook down before he can fire (and demonstrate that they're the fastest gun in the west/east/'verse.) And if Desperados want to go full-whack on armour, they can go for it. They could also skill up to get more than one reaction a turn?

ALSO Standard attack? A Full-auto reaction? Nope. That'll need to be limited to single shot with one pistol, surely?

 

Godgolden, you've hit the proverbial nail with the spaghetti-western hammer straight on the proverbial head. BAM.

 

What say you, readers?

 

Faster-Than-Thou: When an enemy targets the desperado with a shooting attack, by spending a fate point and their reaction a Desperado can interrupt the shooting attack with a standard shooting attack of their own. This attack can only be a single shot from a single pistol already in their hands. 

Once the interrupting shot is resolved, if able to, the enemy shooter can continue with their action.  The desperado must be aware of their attacker, and the shooter must be in their front 90degree arc. 

Having Quick-draw allows the pistol to be drawn-and-fired into an empty hand as part of this reaction.

Edited by Jeans_Stealer

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Isn't Standard Attack a spwcific type.of action that just allows single shots?

You are also introducing character tacing in a game that has none.

Also, reaction means you can't use it on your turn, so you can respond with this to stuff like overwatch.

Edited by LordBlades

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Isn't Standard Attack a spwcific type.of action that just allows single shots?

You are also introducing character tacing in a game that has none.

Also, reaction means you can't use it on your turn, so you can respond with this to stuff like overwatch.

 

Standard attack is not. Standard attack can be turned into two-weapon wielding at a whim. page 224 on the left. In dark Heresy 1.0, yes, not in Dark Heresy 2.0.

 

Character tacing? What's this? What does the game have none of? Is it tactics? Pacing?

 

Reaction means you can't use it in your turn, correct. But you can use it in the same round, like you say, for overwatch, or being shot at, or when someone throws a knife, or uses suppressing fire. (the desperado is 'potentially' targeted as he's in the firing arc for Supressing fire.)  

The character will need some good awareness to be aware of an over-watching attacker, who would be foolish to remain in the front arc of a gun-magi such as a desperado with his automatic weapon.

 

The fact that the desperado is using a fate point to do this, and has a gun in his hand (usually) to react, I'm starting to like this. Asymptomatic? Godgolden?

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Lots of posts in the time I was sleeping. Down to business:

 

Faster-Than-Thou: When an enemy declares a ranged attack against a Desperado, the Desperado may spend a Fate Point and a Reaction to fire a single shot from a single Pistol weapon. The Desperado's attack resolves first, and may only be attempted with a Pistol he is currently wielding or may ready as a Free Action. The Desperado must be able to clearly see his shooter to make this attack.

 

Less word salad, I think, with three sentences. This bonus I can get behind, since it doesn't explicitly break anything and offers something that can't be replicated with later Talent buying. It's not the strongest bonus, but will definitely come into effect with the right playstyle.

 

I did not watch (m)any Clint Eastwood movies, so I won't be able say much on that matter. I just know what I want of snap-firing snarker.

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