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MsPaxte

Force Weapons and Vehicles

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So, Within the game that's being run, I'm playing a space marine Librarian, Who, naturally, has a force weapon (Sword). Now, through the course of the game, We've encountered a vehicle, And engaged it. I, Thinking that force weapons work as such, Charged said vehicle, with said force sword, thinking that I would be able to apply the damage of the Force effect to the vehicle. The table is 50/50 on what's correct, but the immediate ruling was that Force weapons don't work on vehicles. I recognize the Machine trait might come into play, as well, But i recall that servitors can be affected by force weapons.

 

That being said, I'd like to know for sure what the case is. There seems to be no reference to what might be the case here, so, flying blind.

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Can't find anything in the books on it so we are into the grounds of obscurity. I would also consider that it would not apply to vehicles. The concept of force weapons is that your killing will is channeled through the weapon to utterly obliterate your victim. Reverting to TT ruling for a moment it states that you need to wound a model to perform the action. As vehicles do not become injured in so much as they take damage and lose structural integrity then it would not apply. Servitors on the other hand have organic components in them. Depending what you are hitting though, it might be easier to open it up and use the sword on whatever is inside.

The other thing is though that you need to do sufficient damage to bypass the armour before you can even think of applying the bonus damage.

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Correct, vehicles can not be affected by the force sword's psychic burstdamage as 1: vehicles have no WP, 2: vehicles are not alive and thus cannot be killed ("... channel psychic force and killing will into the blade," DW:C p. 155), and 3: vehicles aren't opponents, they are targets (it is fairly obvious the killing will is meant to affect characters, not inanimate objects, via the wording of the description).

 

Note: the bonus damage and PEN per psy rating still functions against vehicles.

 

Do not forget, when Deathwatch was released there were no official rules for vehicles. All the rules in Deathwatch are centered around character versus character. This has resulted in other essoteric interpretation of some rules. This is why the Common Sense Rule is in there.

 

Common Sense Rule applies.

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As vehicles have no WP score with which to do an opposed roll - seems preposterous to make them vulnerable to it.

Unless you are a dreadnought IIRC.

 

The dreadnought has WP for the shrivled cripple inside of the sarcophagus, the actual motive body is still a machine. Common Sense Rule would require cracking through the 30 ap of the sarcophagus (necessitating almost wrecking the dreadnought itself to get the chance to do so) to damage the half-living husk within, then you can use the Killing Will (that's what its called now, because... reasons). Otherwise, all you are hitting is the dreadnought's machine body.

 

I would, though, most likely allow it against daemonically possessed vehicles (I'd have to ruminate on this), because... that's what force weapons are for... killing daemons.

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Each necron was once a living creature whose soul was enslaved by the C'tan and mostly munched upon. Yet still there is a soul within the Necron animating the living (living again) metal.

 

So yes, Killing Will should work on Necron characters.

Edited by herichimo

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The dreadnought has WP for the shrivled cripple inside of the sarcophagus, the actual motive body is still a machine. Common Sense Rule would require cracking through the 30 ap of the sarcophagus (necessitating almost wrecking the dreadnought itself to get the chance to do so) to damage the half-living husk within, then you can use the Killing Will (that's what its called now, because... reasons). Otherwise, all you are hitting is the dreadnought's machine body.

 

I would, though, most likely allow it against daemonically possessed vehicles (I'd have to ruminate on this), because... that's what force weapons are for... killing daemons.

 

 

Using that same logic would indicate that a character being hit by a force sword would need to have their armour value beaten by the base melee damage (before "killing will") to apply the effects, as otherwise you haven't cracked through to the person inside.  Note that I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact, it seems far more balanced that way imho, Just pointing out that the rules say nothing about it either way, and if you're going to apply a houserule like that, it doesn't make sense to apply it only halfway. 

 

Using the tabletop rules as a model (which is always a good idea as far as I'm concerned, it tends to be more limiting to players, but allows for better visuals in the theatre of the mind and tends to come out fairly well balanced) would support exactly what you proposed, as well as requiring them to beat not just armour but toughness as well (at least inflict one point of damage to wounds) before "killing will" would apply.  It would make sense, and it would make the amount of damage they inflict before applying that effect meaningful, which in turn makes them more dependent on multiple stats, and allows effects like "feat of strength" or even powers like "might of the ancients" to be useful, and is more thematically appropriate, but it's definitely a houserule.

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Using that same logic would indicate that a character being hit by a force sword would need to have their armour value beaten by the base melee damage (before "killing will") to apply the effects, as otherwise you haven't cracked through to the person inside.  Note that I'm not saying that's a bad thing, in fact, it seems far more balanced that way imho, Just pointing out that the rules say nothing about it either way, and if you're going to apply a houserule like that, it doesn't make sense to apply it only halfway. 

 

This is exactly the case. In order to use Killing Will a character with a force weapon must do damage to an opponent. This means beating both armor and TB and causing at least 1 wound. The additional damage from Killing Will ignores armor and TB, but the normal melee damage does not. As per rules on page 155 of DW:C.

 

Granted I did not mention the reduced TB of the Dreadnought pilot, I figured this was just a base assumption of the rules.

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Fair enough!  I had never interpreted the rules in that way, but looking back on them I agree 100% that the rules indicate you must actually damage the opponent to get the bonus damage, which as an Iron Hands Techmarine in the game I play, I am very excited about!  Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

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