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krechevskoy

Is an X-wing 2.0 gearing up on the horizon?

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1. the new movie would be the ideal impetus for a new core set

 

2. that does not necessarily suggest a new core set is coming, or X-wing 2.0

 

 

I'd put money on Faction Aces v2.0 far sooner than X-wing v2.0

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't necessarily believe X-wing needs 2nd ed. While FFG has proven it can write more elegant rules for a Star Wars game...well, they already did just that. It's called Armada :P

 

X-wing doesn't have any glaring faults (green dice gonna green dice <_< ) to warrant a reboot, just a quick errata to turrets so they don't completely remove the opponent's ability to outmanuever them for any kind of benefit apart from thrusters...and outmanuever

Edited by ficklegreendice

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I don't see- right now- any real benefit to X-Wing 2E. I feel like the game is just starting to hit its stride, and many of the rough edges are being smoothed away. They're only now seeing what they can do with the toolset they've created. Unless they have a very good reason to alienate many of the current fans of this game, they simply won't be doing a 2e anytime in the next couple years.

After that? Maybe. Maybe.

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I don't know.  However, I have observed that with each Wave, we are getting more and more obscure ships (Scyk Interceptor, TIE Punisher, Khyxyz Fighter, etc.).  It is difficult to draw newer players into the game when you are playing something that they do not recognize from TV and that only vaguely resembles Star Wars.  That is especially when newer players are sometimes exposed to the game by seeing others play it at their FLGS and many of the top-tier ships nowadays are not from the OT (e.g. TIE Phantom, Decimator, Outrider, Scum stuff).  I understand that there are only so many OT ships, but still...

 

I would like to see a set based on The Force Awakens or Star Wars: Rebels, but not sure if we'll ever see any of that.

Edited by gundamv

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Personally I don't see anything in this game that cannot be fixed with replacement cards. If there is going to be a 2E, let it be card only:

 

> Updated versions of existing pilots where needed (costs adjusted, upgrades/EPTs added where needed etc.)

> New pilots to bring each ship up to a minimum of 3 generics and 5 (or more) named pilots

> Updated versions of ordnance to fix this mechanic for non-epic play

> Updated versions of certain upgrade cards that are totally useless

> New damage deck

 

The only way this could be done would be to split it into three packs:

 

> Rebels (Pilots & specific Rebel-only cards)

> Imperials (Pilots & specific Imperial-only cards)

> Global (Damage deck & upgrade cards & ordnance)

 

There's still the issue of buying a card pack and receiving pilot cards for ships you may not even own, though this is a relatively minor problem.

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With FFGs usual "speed" of getting things to the market: IF there is a wave set for the new movie, it is already done, and hopefully under production right now. They better have it in stores in December.

 

But I don't see it as a reason for "X-Wing 2.0", but instead for a couple of movie-related ships. Maybe even a starter pack: current rules, new (SW7) models. That way they could build on the models already available, but introduce all the new shinies coming up in the movie. Best of both worlds in my opinion.

Edited by Darnok

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I wouldn't have an issue with a 2nd edition, with one provision.

I will not pay more than $20 for it. One of the reasons I quit 40k was the fact that they came out with a new edition every few years and charge $50-75 for the book, and $30-75 for a new codex, which makes at least some if not most of my models worthless.

As such, the only way I'd ever bother with a 2nd edition of X-Wing is if they can update stuff without me having to spend more than about 20 bucks to update everything I own so it's tournament legal.

Edited by VanorDM

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I'm all for a second edition. The game needed some tweeks last year, but this year those tweeks have become gaping breaches. The spirit of the game's identity as a dog fighting game is under siege. Sweeping change needs to be added to give the edge back to the small based ship vs large based ones. 

 

Or...

 

They can replace the X-wing and the Tie Fighter that comes in the starter box with a Falcon and a Decimator.

The word is "tweak", and other than your blind assertion I don't see a good reason to think things are getting worse for X-wing in any sense.

And things like "the spirit of the game's identity" are so vague and idiosyncratic as to be useless for communication.

Tweek you the wrong way, did I, my beamish boy?

 

I'm so glad we have internet George Zimmerman's like you patrolling our wired neighborhoods ready to pounce on any hoodlums who would dare to use deviant spelling or *gasp* make a blind assertion...ON THE INTERNET EVEN?

Spelling is usually either right or wrong, and most modern browsers will tell you that "tweek" isn't a word. I don't usually bother correcting people, but since you failed to provide any coherent content, I didn't have much else to respond to in your case.

Also, I'm not sure why posting ON THE INTERNET EVEN ought to give you, or anyone else, a pass on being vague and incoherent.

Also, I'm not sure how correcting someone's spelling is the equivalent of actually shooting someone to death, unless your hurt feelings are the same as a person being dead.

Well, I'm sure you've never since you surely are an authority on "good reason" and "sense".

I'm not an authority on those things in any sense, and haven't claimed to be. I do attempt to practice them whenever possible, though.

 

I don't think it's too vague to assert that the identity of a game based on dog fighting is in jeopardy when the most successful ship builds feature turret using, large based ships with huge amounts of points invested in them. It's not dog fighting...

The reason "the spirit of the identity of the game" is vague and meaningless is that "spirit" and "identity" are highly abstract concepts. If we disagree about what those terms mean, we can't communicate about them without first spending a lot of time laying tedious philosophical groundwork.

Of course, that doesn't really matter when you're having a conversation with someone who also believes that concrete concepts like "dogfight" should be redefined to include everything he likes and exclude everything he doesn't like. You and Carroll's Humpty Dumpty would get along fine, I suspect, but here in consensus reality "dogfight" comfortably accommodates what the Falcon is doing when it's chased by a handful of TIE fighters.

Butt, irregardless of this...

Now you're just trolling me.

...it is evident that the fellows at FFG think that the Falcon is far more "iconic" than the game's namesake. Or more to the point, Han and Chewie are more iconic.

"Iconic" is just about as bad as "spirit" and "identity".

This can be hardly debated.

If I agreed with all your assumptions, suppositions, and idiosyncratic definitions, then no doubt I'd agree with your conclusions. Your failure to question any of those things is the problem I've been trying to point out.

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considering the x-wing rules are freely available as pdf online, you wouldn't pay a cent for x-wing 2.0 unless there's some weirdass new template that needed purchasing

If all they do is update the rules sure.

But if they update the cards as well? So now you need the X-Wing 2.0 pilot and upgrade cards, because they changed things that much, then I'd have an issue with it.

If there was some way to buy new upgrade cards cheaply I'd be fine with it, but that goes back to my $20 comment. That's the most I'd pay to replace all the cards in my collection, which I have to say is not a small amount.

Myself I would be surprised if a 2.0 was simply a new rulebook, but anything is possible. :)

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Umm, I'm pretty most competitive games have a ton of "useless" stuff. I also suspect that your view of "balance" is far, far too demanding.

Okay, so name some. My position in the first place is that the more useless content a game has the more that game suffers for it and is likely to fail (also allowing for popularity of subject premise to mitigate that). All games have some content that is rarely used. That's a given but few if any survive in the long term with the amount that X Wing currently has. If you disagree produce some evidence.

I said, "the problem isn't that the game can't be balanced" (not my best phrasing), meaning lots of lists when pitted against each other by skilled players are fairly even and fun to play. At the same time flying 4 X Wings with a few upgrades is likely not going to go well vs a fat turret or BBBBZ. But I was never speaking or concerned about balance on this thread, just to be clear.

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That's a given but few if any survive in the long term with the amount that X Wing currently has. If you disagree produce some evidence.

Warhammer 40k. Has a ton of useless stuff in it, some made useless by GW itself. It's been like that for 20+ years and yet GW is still the biggest miniature company out there.

The fact is, that the higher you get in terms of competition, the more stuff becomes 'worthless', because when you start looking at things like say the final 16 at Worlds, then 2-3% of effectiveness can make the difference between win and lose.

Idealy all ships in X-Wing should be useful, and even effective in say a Store Championship level. But as you get to Regionals, Nationals and Worlds, you'll see fewer and fewer different ships not because they're worthless, but because they're not quite as good as something else.

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My evidence is the complete lack of any other widely popular games which only use half their content 95%of the time without having recreated or rebranded themselves with a new version. Perhaps you can think of one or two Vorpal but I can't. At the very least they are extremely rare. As evidenced by X Wing the proportion of game elements which need to be relevant is directly related to the popularity of the game or of it subject premise. This is not warranted it is mandated by consumers who don't enjoy paying for things they only use half of and have much less patience for it if they don't have a Ionic brand (Star Wars) behind it.

 

Although they are no longer with us I would simply point to the WotC mini games as GREAT examples where over 50% of the content wasn't used 95% of the time.  I guess if you want to say "content" was anything in a booster box then the number probably changes but if that is the measure than if you buy a Defender for the Predator upgrade you're still using the 'content' of that package.

 

DDM has a some minor corrections about three sets in but when it actually made real changes the game pretty much died to me and I'm sure to many others.  There may have been updates to old minis in DDM 2.0 but the damage was done.

You refute my point by making it for me? They are no longer with us being the key phrase. I'm not suggesting X Wing is doomed or that the unused content is beyond redemption just that it's a millstone and a challenge FFG. Its not what they want and it's not what the players want. I do see improvement over time with this issue but it does concern me.

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My evidence is the complete lack of any other widely popular games which only use half their content 95%of the time without having recreated or rebranded themselves with a new version. Perhaps you can think of one or two Vorpal but I can't. At the very least they are extremely rare. As evidenced by X Wing the proportion of game elements which need to be relevant is directly related to the popularity of the game or of it subject premise. This is not warranted it is mandated by consumers who don't enjoy paying for things they only use half of and have much less patience for it if they don't have a Ionic brand (Star Wars) behind it.

 

Although they are no longer with us I would simply point to the WotC mini games as GREAT examples where over 50% of the content wasn't used 95% of the time.  I guess if you want to say "content" was anything in a booster box then the number probably changes but if that is the measure than if you buy a Defender for the Predator upgrade you're still using the 'content' of that package.

 

DDM has a some minor corrections about three sets in but when it actually made real changes the game pretty much died to me and I'm sure to many others.  There may have been updates to old minis in DDM 2.0 but the damage was done.

You refute my point by making it for me? They are no longer with us being the key phrase. I'm not suggesting X Wing is doomed or that the unused content is beyond redemption just that it's a millstone and a challenge FFG. Its not what they want and it's not what the players want. I do see improvement over time with this issue but it does concern me.

I'd say that 80-90% of Magic:The Gathering cards aren't used 90% of the time and that games is more popular than ever, competitive, and 20 years old.

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The very notion that a large chunk of this game is never used is utterly ridiculous. This is one of the most balanced miniature wargames on the market. The fact that dominant tournament builds are a bit monotonous is irrelevant considering tourney players only a tiny percentage of people who play the game. All of the expansions get used by most everyone. Put another way, 95% of the game us only used 50% of the time by 1% of the players; the other 99% of us regularly use 80% of the game.

Look up any thread here from a new player asking what ships are strong/weak, the almost universal response is that most ships are playable, only the TIE advanced was so UP as to not be, and only the Phantom was so OP to be a problem and both of those issues are fixed.

The very premise of this particular sub-argument is comically flawed.

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The very notion that a large chunk of this game is never used is utterly ridiculous. This is one of the most balanced miniature wargames on the market. The fact that dominant tournament builds are a bit monotonous is irrelevant considering tourney players only a tiny percentage of people who play the game. All of the expansions get used by most everyone. Put another way, 95% of the game us only used 50% of the time by 1% of the players; the other 99% of us regularly use 80% of the game.

Look up any thread here from a new player asking what ships are strong/weak, the almost universal response is that most ships are playable, only the TIE advanced was so UP as to not be, and only the Phantom was so OP to be a problem and both of those issues are fixed.

The very premise of this particular sub-argument is comically flawed.

 

 

100% agree with this. I don't see anything "broken" in the game currently, and what does need a tweak here and there is getting fixed with titles and modifications. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater and revamp everything.

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My evidence is the complete lack of any other widely popular games which only use half their content 95%of the time without having recreated or rebranded themselves with a new version. Perhaps you can think of one or two Vorpal but I can't. At the very least they are extremely rare. As evidenced by X Wing the proportion of game elements which need to be relevant is directly related to the popularity of the game or of it subject premise. This is not warranted it is mandated by consumers who don't enjoy paying for things they only use half of and have much less patience for it if they don't have a Ionic brand (Star Wars) behind it.

 

Although they are no longer with us I would simply point to the WotC mini games as GREAT examples where over 50% of the content wasn't used 95% of the time.  I guess if you want to say "content" was anything in a booster box then the number probably changes but if that is the measure than if you buy a Defender for the Predator upgrade you're still using the 'content' of that package.

 

DDM has a some minor corrections about three sets in but when it actually made real changes the game pretty much died to me and I'm sure to many others.  There may have been updates to old minis in DDM 2.0 but the damage was done.

You refute my point by making it for me? They are no longer with us being the key phrase. I'm not suggesting X Wing is doomed or that the unused content is beyond redemption just that it's a millstone and a challenge FFG. Its not what they want and it's not what the players want. I do see improvement over time with this issue but it does concern me.

I'd say that 80-90% of Magic:The Gathering cards aren't used 90% of the time and that games is more popular than ever, competitive, and 20 years old.

Please try not to be daft. For one MTG is essentially on version, what, 10.0 or 11.0. They release new sets and ban older cards from competitive play. When those versions were in play and legal those percentages you gave were reversed. Only the intentional cycling from away from older versions has made the older versions unused. Maybe you'd like it if X Wing released all new ships in new colors and maybe a few new pilot abilities then told you the old ones could no longer be used? In spite of the churn in versions of MTG many of the older versions of the cards are still used in casual play. it's a false comparison.

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The very notion that a large chunk of this game is never used is utterly ridiculous. This is one of the most balanced miniature wargames on the market. The fact that dominant tournament builds are a bit monotonous is irrelevant considering tourney players only a tiny percentage of people who play the game.

 

Legitimate question:

 

Hypothetically, what happens if another game company makes a new [insert awesome IP here] game that achieves the holy grail of game balance that makes X-wing balance look like 40k by comparison?

 

I'm talking a legitimately wide open competitive meta up to the highest levels. This doesn't currently exist in any miniatures game on the planet that I am aware of, let alone one with as big of a name recognition as "Star Wars". But what if it actually happened, and was done with a well-known IP?

Edited by MajorJuggler

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The very notion that a large chunk of this game is never used is utterly ridiculous. This is one of the most balanced miniature wargames on the market. The fact that dominant tournament builds are a bit monotonous is irrelevant considering tourney players only a tiny percentage of people who play the game.

 

Legitimate question:

 

Hypothetically, what happens if another game company makes a new [insert awesome IP here] game that achieves the holy grail of game balance that makes X-wing balance look like 40k by comparison?

 

I'm talking a legitimately wide open competitive meta up to the highest levels. This doesn't currently exist in any miniatures game on the planet that I am aware of, let alone one with as big of a name recognition as "Star Wars". But what if it actually happened, and was done with a well-known IP?

Depends what you mean as balanced.

Take a look at Starcraft. Is it balanced for all races throughout a full skirmish game. My understanding is Zerg are wary game, terrans are pretty average, and Protoss are late game power houses. (I could easily be mistaken, been a lon time since I played).

Compare that to Warcraft 2, where the races were essentially mirrors of each other.

Which one was more popular? Which one has an actually league?

Now while yes, the different races had different play styles, and one could argue they were balanced against each other, in no way was every unit balanced. There were good units and bad units depending on how you wanted to play.

A perfectly balanced game without variety is boring.

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The very notion that a large chunk of this game is never used is utterly ridiculous. This is one of the most balanced miniature wargames on the market. The fact that dominant tournament builds are a bit monotonous is irrelevant considering tourney players only a tiny percentage of people who play the game.

 

Legitimate question:

 

Hypothetically, what happens if another game company makes a new [insert awesome IP here] game that achieves the holy grail of game balance that makes X-wing balance look like 40k by comparison?

 

I'm talking a legitimately wide open competitive meta up to the highest levels. This doesn't currently exist in any miniatures game on the planet that I am aware of, let alone one with as big of a name recognition as "Star Wars". But what if it actually happened, and was done with a well-known IP?

 

 

give it some time man! Armada's only one wave in :P

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Can someone who either thinks XWing 2.0 is coming and/or wants X Wing 2.0 to tell me what problems they have with the game that would warrant a second edition?

Is Defenders and generic e wings costing 5~ points too many REALLY that big of a problem? Would errataing the X Wing to have an extra hull really be a problem? Would enforcing partial point MoV or not giving turrets the ability to fire at range 3 outside of their arcs really be a problem? And while the damage deck could have one or two cards that could be tweaked a little, it's a non-issue.

What I'm trying to get across is that fixing these problems would be easier than making X Wing 2.0. If your definition of X Wing 2.0 is just a reprinted rule book that comes with new core sets and some errataed cards, that's not X Wing 2.0.

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