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McCaber

Pumping Up the Original Old Ones

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So I noticed that as the expansions have come out, the various Old Ones have gotten both harder and more obscure. I'm not a big fan of that, just because it means that the big names of the mythos have been reduced in difficulty while the little barely-known gods from IH are nigh-indestructable.  I want a victory over Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, or Yog-Sothoth to mean much more than it does presently.

 

The epic battle rules help a bit, but I want a bigger effect on the game. Does anyone have something worked out for this?

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You can have them spawn one of their servitors to attack one of the investigators. So after Cthulhu attacks a Star Spawn comes and attacks one player at random, either taking them out of combat till its defeated or they stay in if you want to make things tough. This would work especially well for Nyarlathotep.

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I've been thinking about this for a while now, actually. I believe the best way would be to have an expansion of Cards where some of the effects would be AO-specific. There's at least one such Other World encounter in CotDP, where you lose more Stamina if Ithaqua happens to be the Ancient One.

 

Some suggestions:

 

Mythos Card: False Clues (Headline)

Every investigator must discard 1 Clue if able. If Nyarlathotep is the Ancient One, every investigator must discard all their Clues!

(See the double effect against Nyarly if you draw this a turn or two before the Final Battle.)

 

Mythos Card: Cosmic Madness Spreads (Headline)

Every investigator loses 1 Sanity. If Azathoth is the Ancient One, every investigator loses 3 Sanity instead!

(A bit of a boost for the big old Az.)

 

Mythos Card: Frozen Equipment (Headline)

All Physical Weapons with a combat modifier of +5 or higher (+3 or higher if Ithaqua is the Ancient One) in Arkham must be discarded!

(No longer will investigators like the Gangster just walz through Ithaqua.)

 

Mythos Card: Cursed Blood (Environment: Mystic)

Every time an investigator defeats a monster they must make a Luck(+1) check or be Cursed. If Yig is the Ancient One, the modifier to this check is (-3) instead.

(You certainly don't want to fight Yig's Cultists while this card is in play.)

 

Mythos Card: Cassilda's Song (Environment: Mystic)

Every time an investigator is lost in time and space increase the Terror Level by 1. If Hastur is the Ancient One, also add 1 Doom Token to his Doom Track.

(Note the double effect on upping Terror Level against Hastur.)

 

Other World Encounter: R'lyeh (Red)

It seems whoever lived here is dead... or just dreaming! If Cthulhu is the Ancient One, make a Sneak(-2) check or lose 2 Stamina and 2 Sanity. Otherwise, no encounter.

(I think R'lyeh should be easier if Cthulhu is not the Ancient One.)

 

Other World Encounter: Other (Yellow)

You realize some beings can be in many places at the same time. If Yog-Sothoth is the Ancient One, you lose 2 Sanity and may move to the first area of any Other World and have a new encounter there. Otherwise, nothing happens.

(Once again, note the double effect of possibly getting lost in time and space.)

 

Arkham Encounter: Woods

As darkness falls, you hear heavy footsteps from all around you - but can't see anything but trees! If Shub-Niggurath is the Ancient One a Dark Young appears (if there are no Dark Young in the monster cup, nothing happens). Otherwise, you run away - move to the street.

(I don't know if BGotW expansion already has cards like this.)

 

-Villain

 

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That all works, but it's too easy to 'dilute' it, and it has the additional problem of doing not-a-lot if you're not using a particular AO.

The Epic Battle deck is one way to go: add more savage sinister plots, or just design an entire custom EB deck for each AO. Alternatively, design a few more Sinister Plots and then some new green EB cards so that sinister plots are more likely.

 

Custom Mythos cards are also another way: each AO could have, say, a dozen distinct Mythos cards which you shuffle in at the start of the game. And they could be really nasty. It'd be the equivalent of Sinister Plots, but for the Mythos deck.

Alternatively, you could just use the 'sledgehammer' approach and make up a new type of large card, called a 'Cult of Such-and-Such card', which basically sits beside the AO and enhances its abilities. But when it comes down to it, that might as well be a herald, and we've come full circle because Innsmouth already includes that exact idea: Dagon and Hydra improve Cthulhu. All we need now is specific heralds for the others.

 

(Also, I'd like to say that I don't mind much that the 'core' Cthulhu Mythos elder gods have ended up as the easier set. Cthulhu is so well-known and so often parodied these days that his value as a source of horror has diminished a bit. Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep are also 'devalued currency' because they've become too familiar and we're all too jaded and cynical. These days I'm much more horrified by Ubbo-Sathla and the Dweller in the Gulf and so on. When it comes to Elder Gods, the more obscure and unpronounceable the better...)

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McCaber said:

 

So I noticed that as the expansions have come out, the various Old Ones have gotten both harder and more obscure. I'm not a big fan of that, just because it means that the big names of the mythos have been reduced in difficulty while the little barely-known gods from IH are nigh-indestructable.  I want a victory over Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, or Yog-Sothoth to mean much more than it does presently.

 

The epic battle rules help a bit, but I want a bigger effect on the game. Does anyone have something worked out for this?

 

We almost always use my cult rule for the basic 8 and some of the others. Create a cup made up of normal cultists.

If the worshippers of the Old One are are cultists, one cultist comes out in addition to the normal monster when a gate appears.  If there are more than one WORSHIPPER on the board, first player must take a Curse, Madness or Corruption card or add a doom token.

Exceptions: Hastur:  Add 1 to Terror Level is his only choice.

Azathoth cultists are Azathoth Maniacs.

If the worshippers of the the Old One are monsters, bring out one normal version of that monster when a gate appears in place of drawing a random monster.  Again we use cultists as markers. If there are more than two worshippers in the board at the beginning of the Mythos the first player must take a Curse, Madness or Corruption card or add a doom token.

For the final battle we were using this rule.  We've only used it a few times because we usually go for the seal.  After Epic Battles, came out, we've never used it.

Divide the number of the doom track by two and round up.  One player must cause that many wounds to remove the first doom token.   Continue on until a number of doom tokens equal to the number of players has been removed.  So for one player, you only have to have 7 hits against Azathoth to defeat him.  However to remove the 8th doom token in an 8 player game, one player only needs (14-7=7 divided by 2 rounded up, so 4.

What we do now, is add red cards to the Epic battles based on a die roll.

 

 

 

 

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thecorinthian said:

Custom Mythos cards are also another way: each AO could have, say, a dozen distinct Mythos cards which you shuffle in at the start of the game. And they could be really nasty. It'd be the equivalent of Sinister Plots, but for the Mythos deck.

I like this idea. I'm going to get on it in Strange Eons and see what comes of it.

I also really like the idea of more AO-specific heralds. We just need ones for Yig and Ithaqua now.

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McCaber said:

So I noticed that as the expansions have come out, the various Old Ones have gotten both harder and more obscure. I'm not a big fan of that, just because it means that the big names of the mythos have been reduced in difficulty while the little barely-known gods from IH are nigh-indestructable.  I want a victory over Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, or Yog-Sothoth to mean much more than it does presently.

 The epic battle rules help a bit, but I want a bigger effect on the game. Does anyone have something worked out for this?

I'm a bit confused here.  Are you talking about making them harder while slumbering, when they awaken, or both?  If you're talking about when they awaken, then I am completely lost, since my group has never beaten either Cthulhu or Yog-Sothoh in combat, and we never expect to be able to.   

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Guest Not In Sample

With the exception of Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth. None of the AO in the first game are as deadly as the "unknown ones". If you want the best example. Don't think of Cthulhu as a godly creature. If you have seen Mulan that is what Cthulhu is he is just a servant of his ancestors. Many people who do not know the Mythos assume Cthulhu is the number one baddy. He is just an elder priest for the Ancient Ones, just like Hastur. 

Also never forget: it is not what you know that should scare you, it is what is unknown that should. Though that could make Sub Niggurath a poweful one too because little is known about the outer god, other than the Black Goat works for him/her. I see where you are coming from game-wise though. You just don't want to see the iconic AOs to fade away. That is understandable. I just wanted to make sure people are aware Cthulhu is NOT the major villain in Lovecraft. He is just iconic. He IS a major threat though, because without him to awaken the AOs the world is safer.

Nyarlathotep enacts the will of the Outer Gods, and is their messenger, heart and soul; he is also a servant of Azathoth, whose wishes he immediately fulfills. This god is not powerful in might, but more in deception. Trying to win the world over as a con artist. This is well represented with the Mask idea.

Yig is believed to be a prototype for the snake gods the south american tribes worshiped. His poison ability (especially in plot cards) fits perfectly.

Dunwich comes with Abhoth an outer god. The source of all miscreation and abomination. Parts of his gray ooze body try to flee him for freedom. The spawn mechanic works very well for this. Glaaki uses undead servants to help summon Sub Niggurath. Shudde M'ell is a mile long worm that burrows under earth and creates absolute destruction when it surfaces like a whale beneath the ocean. Tsathoggua's Malaise thing doesn't really fit him but meh, it could just be the feeling of discomfort his formless spawn give the locals, since they can take any shape.

I think what really hurts the Arkham Horror base game AO is the fact that Lovecraft never really went into detail on what they do. The AOs in the expansions are other author's and they wrote more clearly what each one did and how it looked. Ball of heat. Gray alien form that turns what it touches to dust ect...

 

 

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The best way to handle this is to design some custom Heralds to fit the theme as they won't get diluted.

Cthulhu got two in Innsmouth. S-N got one in Black Goat. Yog Sothoth can use Dunwich Horror (on this site), Nyarl uses Pharaoh's Curse (ditto) Hastur + KiY. There's a nice one for Yig called Set somewhere out on there that fits the theme well.

Azathoth - Dunno - Ghorth maybe, seeing as you can't plan for a final fight... or else some kind of custom Herald that improves Maniacs a lot (e.g. Stalker, Endless, +1 Doom when two are gathered together and Spawn on monster surges). Ithaqua... Still waiting. Maybe something that forced you out in the street after using the special ability of a location.

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Guest Not In Sample

 Totally agree with this guy ^

I didnt really like playing with any of the Dark Pharaoh things, except the allies, gate cards (nothing like a 1 in a  200 chance of fighting Cthulhu alone), and spells. But when the Pharaoh herald was made. I then took out the dunwich board and replaced the Black goat for the Pharoah. Then added the other contents that came with Dark Pharaoh, now everything thing fit and the exhibit really did feel impacting on the game. Same goes for Black Goat. You really need the herald to add to the fear of the corruption cards. I do not have King in Yellow but I think I am going to get the king in yellow today. 

I will try to come up with a herald for Azathoth and Ithqua. Cthulhu tho is a tuff one. I guess only answer is buy Innsmouth and use Dagon and Hydra, cuz they are his heralds. 

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/225887?size=large     that uses The messenger as the herald for Azathoth. 

If you find Set or think of a good Ithqua herald let me know.

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Guest Not In Sample

No offence but this is retarded. You find an AO too easy? use a herald. End of story.

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When to comes to Yog, Hastur, Cthulhu, Azathoth, Shub, and Nyarlathtep my group pretty much only plays with them with their Heralds. This helps them become much more intimidating throughout. Itahqua and Yig are missing heralds, but there were a few player created ones (the Wendigo and Set, respectively) way back in the day.

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kroen said:

No offence but this is retarded. You find an AO too easy? use a herald. End of story.

Azathoth 6-0-0 (BG, DH, DP, KiY), yeah, Heralds help demonio.gif .  Couple of more that need more than a Herald:

Shub-Niggurath 4-1-1 (BG, DP, KiY)

Shudde M'ell 5-1-0 (BG, DH, DP, KiY)

Shub + DH yet to be played, don't see that making a big difference.

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 Coming up with new ideas and variants does not make a person retarded or their ideas retarded. I guess Leonardo Devinci and Lovecraft must have been retarded lol. Those **** retarded fools pfft what good could they have ever done. 

 That being said I still agree, just use the heralds. 

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kroen said:

use a herald. End of story.

 

That wasn't a very interesting story. I found the main point to be undeveloped and the narrator seemed to be a bit of a pillock.

 

You're particularly far off the mark with this one, K. My regular group have a problem, which is that there actually isn't enough variety in medium- to high-difficulty heralds. The King in Yellow doesn't tend to do very much (possibly because our playing style keeps Terror under control quite effectively), Ghroth just speeds up the game a lot (which isn't very interesting in my view), Tulzscha does bugger-all, and the Black Goat is nastier than most AOs, and tends to clog up the board with monsters a bit too much for my tastes (which not actually giving you the time to deal with those monsters).

I realize that I have fairly specific requirements here... but I do think there's a need for new interesting heralds that aren't AO-specific, but which don't dominate the game too much. A few 'mixed-bag' AOs that implement low-level changes to game rules could really put the weaker base-set AOs back in the game. The trouble is balancing them - we don't really want a herald to 'take over the game', but I also don't ever want it to be completely ignorable, like King in Yellow sometimes is. I want to be able to use Nyartlathotep and co., because I love some of their abilities (particularly Mask monsters), but I don't want the AO to be too easy.

Actually I just had a thought. Stay tuned.

 

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^ ^ ^

Should be interesting.

This is a particularly inelegant solution, but perhaps difficulty cards specific to AOs?

Something like:

Difficulty: The Soul of the Outer Gods

Place all mask monsters in a secondary cup at the start of the game. Each time a gate opens, place a mask monster on the gate instead of the normal monster (or 1 normal monster, one mask if >5 players). If no mask monsters are left to draw, use a regular monster instead and add a doom token.

If Nyarlthotep awakens, each time the investigators fail their check, they must discard two clue tokens or be devoured.

Then make one of these for each of the ones you want to boost.

 

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Guest Not In Sample

thecorinthian said:

 

kroen said:

 

use a herald. End of story.

 

 

 

That wasn't a very interesting story. I found the main point to be undeveloped and the narrator seemed to be a bit of a pillock.

You're particularly far off the mark with this one, K. My regular group have a problem, which is that there actually isn't enough variety in medium- to high-difficulty heralds. The King in Yellow doesn't tend to do very much (possibly because our playing style keeps Terror under control quite effectively), Ghroth just speeds up the game a lot (which isn't very interesting in my view), Tulzscha does bugger-all, and the Black Goat is nastier than most AOs, and tends to clog up the board with monsters a bit too much for my tastes (which not actually giving you the time to deal with those monsters).

I realize that I have fairly specific requirements here... but I do think there's a need for new interesting heralds that aren't AO-specific, but which don't dominate the game too much. A few 'mixed-bag' AOs that implement low-level changes to game rules could really put the weaker base-set AOs back in the game. The trouble is balancing them - we don't really want a herald to 'take over the game', but I also don't ever want it to be completely ignorable, like King in Yellow sometimes is. I want to be able to use Nyartlathotep and co., because I love some of their abilities (particularly Mask monsters), but I don't want the AO to be too easy.

Actually I just had a thought. Stay tuned.

 

 

 

Thats actually not the best idea. You are looking at it differently than how I described. I describe Heralds to be used with certain expansions not AOs. Having Black goat with dunwich board helps make sure tons of monsters flood both boards, so that there is no "clean up crew". Pharaoh makes aquiring exhibit items dangerous and adds the curse of the Pharaoh theme to the game even when Nyarlathotep isn't the boss (god Lovecraft how my keyboard hates your names). When I play with a herald I look at it and say "what will go great with this guy". I think its common sense that mixing everything into one game is stupid, unless doing it for a joke.

If you want a better challenge with the old AOs add a herald and try to create a theme with the expansions you have. Its kind of like runebound...you decided the scenario you would like to play don't just mix everything into one game. Trying to make Heralds that only make a certain AO or GOO more powerful is still not opening up your mind enough. Try to create heralds that will drive the threat of: Dunwich, Kingsport, Dark Pharaoh, King in yellow expansions to stand out more. Take out the cards that add extra suppliments, counters, and tokens that don't fit the theme nor threat. EX: having a monster surge based Herald with out many monsters, or having a terror based herald witha  ton of non terror raising cards to dilute the decks.

Most of all when you make a herald taylor it to your playstyle. As you can see fromt he above poster, it all depends on how you play. If you randomly draw investigators or select them, how many expansions do you use, and what type of strategy do you use. 

That previous poster notes how they keep terror level in check. Well when creating a herald, make it so that is harder to do. Such as, anytime a player is sent to the asylum or hospital discard a  random ally and raise the terror level. The stories you tell the nurse spread like wildfire, and certain individuals in town may pack up and leave as you are the true monster spreading the terror in Arkham. Thats just an example.

Point is coming on a messege board and just asking people to answer your question shows that you have no imagination or a lack of it. I am trying not to sound rude, even though I know that I look it. As proof just post your playstyle and what expansions you own. I am sure then we can get you on the right track. But after everything FFG has given you and complaining that you want revised GOO and AO is stupid. Sorry but if my store and others on this forum and on boardgamegeeks can come up with this stuff, then I think you can too. 

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McCaber said:

So I noticed that as the expansions have come out, the various Old Ones have gotten both harder and more obscure. I'm not a big fan of that, just because it means that the big names of the mythos have been reduced in difficulty while the little barely-known gods from IH are nigh-indestructable.  I want a victory over Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, or Yog-Sothoth to mean much more than it does presently.

 

The epic battle rules help a bit, but I want a bigger effect on the game. Does anyone have something worked out for this?

Have you checked the fan creation section of the forum?

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=113&efcid=1&efidt=17002&efpag=20#137856

Personally, I have a herald in there that makes Nyarlethotep *much* harder, and another one that makes Yog-Sothoth *very* threatening.  I might make one for Hastur (I'm not crazy about the KiY) that uses the blight cards in a different way, while also encouraging terror rises.  But that won't be for a while (I'm leaving the country, and my computer, for a couple months)..

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Guest Not In Sample

Kerathimel.jpgDude I love your heralds. The last one you did makes entering gates fun. Not even going to attempt to name it lol. Caramel yum.

 

As for one that raises terror.

1z3m4ye.jpg

Then add this with him

7dcf49db4145.jpg

Have fun keeping terror in check. In the spirit of NBA finals, even M. Jordan missed a free thrown once in a while, but miss too many and you lose the game.

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Guest Not In Sample

Heh while going back to the fan made things I forgot this. Obviously you can use the new deep ones now with Innsmouth.

 

carddeck1.jpg

carddeck1.jpg

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Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring.

Sorry that I lost all the original .eon files, but I uploaded some scans of the printouts. I can't remember if these were the final versions though.

Here is the Set herald I worked up with MillMaster, and a refined version of Chris Jennings's Ghroth (this was designed before Kingsport came out):

ghrothset.th.jpg ghrothsetbacks.th.jpg ghrothsetfronts.th.jpg

Back when only up through King in Yellow was released, I had thought that each herald was designed to bolster a particular AO. I went ahead and made nine heralds; one for each unaccounted AO. Ghroth was meant for Azathoth, and Set was meant for Yig. I just hopped back into Strange Eons and reconstructed two of my other favorites to the best of my memory:

zvilpogghuafrontside.th.jpg

A herald for Tsathoggua (like he needed one) makes the Formless Spawn more prominent, among other nasty effects.

wendigofrontside.th.jpg

A herald for Ithaqua, which I really liked. I specifically designed him to make it difficult to avoid the streets, and to spend stamina.

I had also made:

  • The Burrowers Beneath (for Shudde M'ell), which drew Chthonians and rubble tokens
  • A Dagon herald (for Cthulhu) which put Deep Ones into the River Docks and Unvisited Isle. You also lost a maximum sanity/stamina if you went insane/unconscious. Dreadful!
  • Black Goat of the Woods (for Shub-Niggurath), which increased the monster limit based on the terror level, and which made Dark Young into Spawn monsters, if I remember correctly
  • Ubbo-Sathla (for Abhoth), which put Children of Abhoth into play, among other abilities that I can't recall
  • Inhabitants of the Lake (for Glaaki) that put Servants of Glaaki into play whenever there was an Urban card. It also stripped sanity from the 1st player at increasing intervals (Revelations of Glaaki), and it additionally awarded the 1st player a clue token if Glaaki was the AO, just because pairing this herald with Glaaki was particularly nasty.

Wish I still had the originals.

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@Dark Kami

:') thanks for the compliment.  You might be pleased to hear that I'm about to post another herald for Cthulhu (probably my last one for a couple months— although if inspiration strikes before Friday night, it's possible one more might pop up, don't count on it though).  I played a game against Hydra and Dagon a few days ago.  It was very hard, but I didn't really feel like it was particularly thematic (or interesting).  In my opinion, Cthulhu deserves better.  And in my not so humble opinion, I have given him a more worthy tribute.  Anyways, I decided to combine a few players ideas with a few of my own (and btw, the idea of aquatic cultists was mine originally :') to the best of my knowledge, although it was incorporated into a few other players' creations.  Anyways, since this thread seems to be including Original Ancient One's heralds :') I'm going to repost my Nyarlethotep Herald along with my new Cthulhu herald.  I hope at least some people like it.

I'm posting direct links in case someone doesn't know how to right click to see the full images.

 

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/TheMaskless2.jpg

TheMaskless2.jpg

 

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/Rlyeh.jpg

Rlyeh.jpg

 

All I'll say is pray you don't draw a Moonbeast ;'D and that I hope every much that you have Curse of the Dark Pharoah.  Think about it for a second, you'll know why ;'D

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thecorinthian said:

That all works, but it's too easy to 'dilute' it, and it has the additional problem of doing not-a-lot if you're not using a particular AO.

The Epic Battle deck is one way to go: add more savage sinister plots, or just design an entire custom EB deck for each AO. Alternatively, design a few more Sinister Plots and then some new green EB cards so that sinister plots are more likely.

I nevr liked the idea of Epic battle to begin with. (or final batte)

The idea that investigators could fight  an AO is so far removed from Lovcraft's idea of an AO.

 

The investigators should really only "win" by preventing the AO from awakening.

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On 6/7/2009 at 11:03 PM, Avi_dreader said:

@Dark Kami

:') thanks for the compliment.  You might be pleased to hear that I'm about to post another herald for Cthulhu (probably my last one for a couple months— although if inspiration strikes before Friday night, it's possible one more might pop up, don't count on it though).  I played a game against Hydra and Dagon a few days ago.  It was very hard, but I didn't really feel like it was particularly thematic (or interesting).  In my opinion, Cthulhu deserves better.  And in my not so humble opinion, I have given him a more worthy tribute.  Anyways, I decided to combine a few players ideas with a few of my own (and btw, the idea of aquatic cultists was mine originally :') to the best of my knowledge, although it was incorporated into a few other players' creations.  Anyways, since this thread seems to be including Original Ancient One's heralds :') I'm going to repost my Nyarlethotep Herald along with my new Cthulhu herald.  I hope at least some people like it.

I'm posting direct links in case someone doesn't know how to right click to see the full images.

 

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/TheMaskless2.jpg

TheMaskless2.jpg

 

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt307/avi_dreader/Rlyeh.jpg

Rlyeh.jpg

 

All I'll say is pray you don't draw a Moonbeast ;'D and that I hope every much that you have Curse of the Dark Pharoah.  Think about it for a second, you'll know why ;'D

hey! @Avi_dreader ..... can you re-share you Herald Nyarlathotep??  cant find it in a good quality to print it :(

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