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Darth Ruin

X-Wing Coach in Tournaments

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Would it be interesting to introduce the role of coach or an assistant with you at a Premier level tournament? Someone you can discuss moves with and maybe see the angles you've missed, and act as your second to provide moral support when required. Of course, it would be slightly unfair if your opponent didn't have one, but given both players have access to one? 

 

(Edit: Rewrote, I'm not suggesting that you bring a coach, that it would be interesting to introduce one.) 

Edited by Darth Ruin

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I would consider it similar to "Outside Interaction" in Magic: The Gathering, where a player receives potentially game-changing information that could create an edge over their opponent. At a tournament, I wouldn't allow coaching, since it is a game of one's own skill and knowledge versus another's and not a team vs. team game.

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How is this different from a team game where you and your teammate agree to play different roles during the match? "I'll pick dials; you tell me when I've picked the wrong ones."

That's the thing though, it becomes a team game when a teammate is required to play the game.

A coach would be, like my example, an outside interaction that takes away the dueling aspect of a game.

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Absolutely freaking not. This is not a boxing match, it's a miniatures game, and asking for assistance from outside the game (except for rulings from a TO) is cheating.

 

Do you see Poker players bring coaches to their tournaments? Or, if you want a closer example, Magic players? No, you do not.

Edited by DR4CO

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I would have to say yes and no. Dueling in a sense where your physical strength, endurance and skill is tested to best your opponent, but not in a sense where you have access to coaches aiding you in your match between rounds, helping you find a strategy, pointing out weaknesses of your own and the opponent's, having the towel, stool and water ready for you to sit down and try to take it all in. That's a lot of effort from an outside party to continue on with a "duel".

Similarly, in X-Wing, the computing power and experience is immediately doubled when a coach is there to offer you strategic and moral support during a game. If an opponent doesn't have access to that, then they are at a great disadvantage. If both players have a coach, it may as well become a team event.

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The first time it happened I would ask them to be quiet, the second I would call a judge to give you a second warning, the third time I would have you thrown out of the tournament. Premiere event or not.   

 

This goes the same for non-"coach" watchers.    

 

This so abusing the rules it isn't funny.  There is no proviso for you to be able to use outside assistance (like say golf or boxing), so you can't.  

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If we're talking about bringing coaches to tournaments as strategic and moral support when players are not playing, I'm all for it. I went to big events for Magic and my friends and I would all spectate and watch each other during matches, but would only provide insight and support after the fact when they are no longer in the game.

Coaching can even come from your opponents after a match in friendly advice such as saying "don't forget your triggers next time around" or "be sure to utilize those hard turns even if they're red" and coming back around in the later rounds to ask how they did. As long as the coach isn't interacting with the player they're supporting during the game, then having them around shouldn't be a problem.

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In the actual boxing pro level match the coach no influence on the game only in between rounds.

For x-wing in between round 1 and round 2 I think its totally fine to talk to a coach, but in the match itself...no, a big NO.

Compare it to a chess match instead of boxing (which is a way better comparison IMO).

Edited by PS10

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In game coaching no. On the flip side between games I could see it being ok. They might even be useful in seeing at a very large event what the prevailing builds are, in general, so you can adjust your strategy and tactics as needed. At a certain point though theres only so much they can tell you.

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Using your boxing analogy, can the coach in a boxing match step into the ring and throw a few jabs when you're getting a bit tired? No? Because if the coach is giving you tips on what moves to make during a game of x-wing, they are essentially stepping in and throwing punches.

In a boxing match, which is a physical contest, a coach can't provide direct physical assistance. X-wing is a mental contest, you shouldn't have someone providing direct mental assistance or your opponent is essentially playing against both of you.

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Only two ways i can see this being fair.

 

In one way you actually make your tourny a 'doubles'.  we used to do this at GW, while it was *technically* two players sharing one army in reality it consisted largely of father/son teams or mates being got into the game by a more experienced friend.

 

doing this *everyone* gets the opportunity for that second opinion/greater rule knowledge.. even if in reality one player is just chaperoning the others.  BUT, everyone has to know that is the format.

 

The other way i'd see it being fair is if your coach could silently observe your game, not even give you subtle signals while playing (nightmare to referee) but during rounds could then assess where you played well or poorly, help you tweak your list etc (if allowed to alter lists between rounds).

 

I think i'd personally be a bit annoyed if i was playing someone who was constantly confering with a mate, or if i'd put in a fantastic feint or ruse you were about to 'buy in to' and your mate did an Ackbar and said 'its a trap!' :)

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The only way I would like a "coach" is before and after the game. Once I knew my opponent and his list before the last round was announced as it was the final. My friend who also attended the tournament "coached" me, as he had played the list in a previous round and he knew my and his list. He gave me some good advice beforehand and that's it. 

 

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At a Premier event any outside assistance is not permitted.  The only ones that can be involved in the game are the players and the judge.  If I saw this kind of behavior involving anyone that is above the age of ten years old, I would call over the judge.

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I can't believe there is even a debate surrounding this. No. You cannot have someone to catch your mistakes and tell you how to fly your ships during a match. If you want to bring a friend along and only talk between matches sure, that's fine. No problem with that. But who is REALLY going to sit through an entire tournament to only talk to you for 10-15 minutes between rounds and not play themselves? Sounds boring as hell.

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Does a coach take away the duelling aspect of a boxing match? 

Are you really comparing moving some toys on a table to an actual combat sport?

 

I personaly wouldn't mind if my opponent brought a ''coach'', if he wants to actually take it to this level. I would not be able to resist laughing at the fact that he might take the game a little too seriously and hope at least he's not paying him... 

 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll go practice a new formation of mine while listening to 'Eye of the tiger'.

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I happen to be in the camp that outside interference of any kind is cheating in a miniatures game, and should not be permitted in anyway, especially at the highest level of competition.  From having 'that guy' walk by your table and say, 'hey you forgot to do this' or 'I would do this if I were you', to your cousin whispering in your ear to remind you to add that focus token to that ship, it adds a level of outside interference that would alter the course of the game.  It is unfair to your opponent to not only have to out match and out battle you, but your outside interference as well.  You're just better off not entertaining the idea at all.

 

Team games are one thing, and fun, but team games would never be a Premier Level event.  But if you feel that you need or require a coach to play this game at the competitive level, then you should not be playing this game at that level.  I'm sorry if that is harsh, but it is true.  Coaching is just fine when learning the game.  For children who do not understand the game and want to roll dice and have fun.  All of these things are just fine in pick up games!  However, once you get to the tournament level, especially the Premier level like a Regionals, Nationals, or Worlds...  no way! 

Bottom line, a 'coach' would not be accepted widely by most competitive players.  After all, at its core, it is a game against me and you.  Not a game against me, and you and your coach, and your coach's buddy...

Edited by EvilEd209

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Coaching between matches is fine. Coaching during a match is sketchy (and probably illegal), unless it's a specific "Father/Son", "Mother/Daughter", "Experienced/Novice"-type tournament to help bring new players into the fold.

 

P.S. My stance above is for organized tournaments. For informal/casual play, as long as both parties are fine with it, there's no problem.

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